The Tibetan Goat-Herder

Hello ATSers!

I cannot help but notice how many people nowadays, including numerous ATS members, have a pre-conceived view of what a Christian is. Therefore, I am writing this as proof that there are variations to this theme. Let me tell you about an exchange between myself and a family member whom I shall refer to as “M” from here on.

“M” is a conservative/fundamentalist Christian whereas I am a liberal/radical Christian. At a family shindig we started discussing spiritual matters. Somehow the subject of who shall make it to Heaven and who shall not came up. “M” quoted the Bible directly using John 14:6 “…’I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’”.

My reply was basically, “yeah, but naturally there are exceptions”.

However, “M” was adamant, restating how the Bible made it perfectly clear that the matter is cut and dry, over and out. You must be a Christian, you must confess your sins, you must be reborn, you must be baptized, etc, etc, etc.

So I asked “M” about her thoughts as pertaining to Shamar, a Tibetan goat-herder. It is a fictional story, but has some interesting implications when it comes to matters of spirituality. So let me tell you about my fictional friend Shamar…

Shamar is 85 years old and today is the day he shall die.

Shamar lives in a remote region of Tibet. He has never even heard of Jesus, or what we refer to as the Christian Bible. All the same, Shamar has always been a genuinely peaceful, loving man. He has a wife, kids, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren all of whom love him deeply just as he loves them. Shamar has always been kind to his fellow man, always willing to lend a hand or even a shoulder to cry upon. He never stole a thing in his life, never lusted for his neighbor’s wife, never purposely wronged another, and was always content, even thankful, with his lot in life.

Now he lies upon his deathbed surrounded by those who love him. Shamar knows he is moments away from the end. He looks around the room at the weeping family and friends that surround him and he is okay with what is upon him, knowing he was loved. He smiles the best smile he can manage with what little strength he has remaining. He turns his head towards his wife of 60+ years and gives her “the look”. “The look” that silently says “it is okay my beloved, I am at peace”. His breathing audibly grows more difficult. Shamar is gone. The sound of weeping in the room grows louder.

Fade to black…….

After telling “M” this story, I asked her again as to whether or not there are no exceptions. She looked me right in the eye and didn’t hesitate to say “no, he will not go to Heaven, he will be damned to Hell because he has not been saved”.

The thudding sound of my jaw dropping and hitting the kitchen floor was probably heard two counties over.

The God both of us deeply believe in and love, in all His infinite wisdom, did the following:

• Went to the trouble of “creating” Shamar.
• Allowed him to live on this Earth for 85 years.
• Allowed him to love, to laugh, to cry.
• Allowed him to have descendants, who deeply loved Shamar.

Now God plans to toss him into hellfire, to be tortured for all eternity, because Shamar didn’t believe in God’s son when in 85 years he hadn’t even heard of Jesus? Sorry, that is not the God I love so deeply. Not buying it!

I cannot pretend to know the answer to this story. Simply put, I’m not qualified for obvious reasons.

So, what are your thoughts? Don’t care if you are Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Fence-sitter, Apache or whatever your beliefs are! I’d really like to hear some thoughts on this from members.

Peace.

We all go to the same place when we die regardless of your belief

And it ain't hell my friend

Originally posted by Akragon
We all go to the same place when we die regardless of your belief

And it ain't hell my friend

I would like to agree with you on one point Akragon. I genuinely struggle with the concept of Hell.

However, I genuinely believe in an afterlife. What that is exactly, I do not know.

Cheers!

P.S. - You are definitely true to your word. You told me you would catch this thread. Rock on!

reply to post by Hessling




cheers bro... You don't need to struggle with the idea of hell... I think if you believe strongly enough in something its very possible to end up in such a place....You create your own reality.

To me hell is just a means of control... Believe what we believe or you'll go to hell... pffhaha!!

A concept for the weak minded...

A stimulating thread, multi faceted and thought provoking.
What came to mind for me was Joseph Cambell's notion of "god is a god of a thousand faces. This is determined by local vernacular, lore and myth, as to what someone envisions as god. But if god is in everything, then he(?) is Buddha, Yahweh, Jesus etc....When religion turns from inclusive to exclusive, well that does more harm than good.

The bible is used for so many different reasons, but when it is considered absolute and law, well I have a problem with that because believers select what passages apply to a situation and discredit any stories that may seem less than holy. And my religious/spiritual view is to value the compassion, tolerance, non-judgement and forgiveness aspects. The church, imo is more of man's creation, whereas the planet is more my idea of church.





Peace,
spec

reply to post by Hessling


I bring up a similar objection, though I'll applaud you for your storytelling.

You can also ask what happened to all of the Native Americans prior to the 13th century...well, unless you're talking to a Mormon. Anyway, it's a good point and it just highlights a flaw in Arminianism, the idea that salvation is derived from faith.

reply to post by Hessling


And who says that Jesus can't save people after death?

The bible says that every knee shall bows and know Jesus is Lord.

So that Tibetan guy -will- have his chance to accept Jesus.

Remember that even demons know that Jesus is Lord, however they chose not to accept Him.

Instead of making separate posts I'll make a group reply

Akragon: You are deep. I truly appreciate that. (Wish I could hoist one with you and talk Theology.)

speculativeoptimist: I promise to watch the vids you've posted (no time right now) and get back to you on this thread. To say the least I'm intrigued.

madnessinmysoul: Could you please elaborate? I'm not familiar with Arminianism.

freedish: I like the way you think. Personally, I'd be 100% cool with that.

Peace and thanks for the replies.

H

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Hessling

 

And who says that Jesus can't save people after death?

The bible says that every knee shall bows and know Jesus is Lord.

So that Tibetan guy -will- have his chance to accept Jesus.

Remember that even demons know that Jesus is Lord, however they chose not to accept Him.

edit on 27-3-2011 by freedish because: (no reason given)

Well, now that you're asking, I for one say that Jesus can't save people after death.

Neither before for that sake.

But then I have the unworthy suspicion, that your question was rhetoric, only a part of your recurring slightly revised sermon.

And then there's the alternative, that the christianities are so far off the mark concerning any kind of reality-orientation whatsoever, that christians, in an alleged afterlife-situation, may find themselves desperately wishing, that they had read and understood the 'Tibetan book of the dead', which is a kind of manual for making the best out of being dead.

Whereas the tibetan goat-herder, most likely being familiar with this manual on dying is far, far better off than christians, who have wasted a whole life on fictive fantasies.

Now don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and you probably preach at people from the best of motives. But mankind has increasingly more freedom to choose individually, and I suggest you adjust to that, for you inconvenient situation, by not presenting fabulated absolutes.

Just as your sermon SUGGESTED something.

reply to post by Hessling


Here's a handy link for further study, but I'll give you the basics:

Human work cannot lead to salvation as salvation is found only through god's grace. Therefore, the only way to salvation is to accept this grace through faith and faith alone.

reply to post by freedish


Um...no. You see, there's no evidence of the afterlife, so you're just idly speculating. Your speculations are about as useful as those of someone claiming that there is a microscopic unicorn kingdom on Pluto conspiring to assassinate Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

reply to post by Hessling


The goat herder goes to Heaven, he is innocent.
You and your kin go to Hell for discussing it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Hessling

 

I bring up a similar objection, though I'll applaud you for your storytelling.

You can also ask what happened to all of the Native Americans prior to the 13th century...well, unless you're talking to a Mormon. Anyway, it's a good point and it just highlights a flaw in Arminianism, the idea that salvation is derived from faith.

Here is what Chief Red Jacket of the Seneca Nation had to say to a missionary........
"We understand your religion is written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the great spirit given it to us, and not only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means to understand it rightly?"
Of all the religious statements I have ever read, this one troubles me the most.

reply to post by Trublbrwing


Troubles you? I'm sorry, but it should relieve you to realize that native peoples immediately called bullcrap on the ideas that were forced on them for clear and logical reasons. That is a statement of the triumph of logical thought.

reply to post by Trublbrwing

Your post made me think of Tom Brown Jr's story(true by the way) and his mentor was an Apache scout named Stalking Wolf, aka Grandfather. Grandfather too was reached by missionaries and here is his take on Jesus and religion. This is one of my favorite writings ever, very profound and it resonates well with me.

Grandfather sat for a long time gazing at the cross, then he finally spoke the words that still resound in my mind and life:

He said, "I am in awe of this man called Jesus. He was a man of purity, of wilderness, a prophet and a teacher, a man who walked close to the spirit. He healed the sick, raised the dead, and fed the masses. His life was so full of truth, and he lived that truth. His life is the example of what we all should strive to become. This Jesus was so full of love for his people that he gave up his life for them. Yet death had no power over him, and he was taken home to the Creator. The evil ones could kill his flesh but not his spirit. Thus this man has inspired more nations and healed more people than I could ever dream of."
"Yet what we do to his name and teachings today has distorted that truth."

"Jesus was such a simple man. He had no real home, for like the place of his birth, he preferred the wild places. His temples were the gardens, the mountains, the shore of the sea, and the wilderness. To him, whenever two or three were gathered with him, then that was his church, his temple. His clothing was simple, he carried no supplies, and he let the Creator and Nature take care of his every need."
"His teachings were simple, yet they were profound truth. To him there were no customs, traditions, or ceremonies to imprison him. Nor did he pass down in his teachings much in the way of ceremony. Instead, what he taught and worshipped was simple purity."
"Why today have his teachings become so complicated? Why are there so many ceremonies and customs surrounding his name, when all he taught was simplicity?"

"The distortion of truth lies in man's quest to complicate all that is simple and pure. Doctrine and ceremony are argued, churches and temples are separated, and man strives to complicate more. What should be, is a striving to bring back the simple truths, unadulterated by man's ceremonious crutches."

"What man seems to have done is to pick the Bible apart to make each part fit his own personal needs and religion. By taking the Bible apart, man has removed each part from the context of the whole and has lost the true meaning of things. I have even heard that modern man has argued the translation of the Bible and has argued over the meaning of one single word. What is really important is the overall meaning and the basic truth.

Man must stand back from the Bible and read it as a whole....."
I finally rallied enough courage to ask Grandfather a question, still stunned by what he had said. "What, then, are the simple teachings of the Bible and Jesus?", I asked.


He hesitated for a moment, then answered the most pressing question on my mind, the question I had been afraid to ask. He said, "You wonder how the teachings of the Bible and of Christ are in conflict or are similar to what I have been teaching you. In the past, all you have seen is the conflict and not the truth.
"What I teach, what Nature teaches, is the same basic truth the Bible teaches. The only distortion and conflict is caused by man and his interpretation of what I teach, compared to the teachings of the Bible. For what man has done to the Bible and the teachings of Jesus he has done with so many other religions and philosophies.

Faith and Belief

"You will remember that I told you that faith and belief are the most powerful forces on Earth and of the spirit. Jesus taught the same thing. Jesus said, 'I tell you the truth. If anyone says to the mountain, "Go, throw yourself into the sea," and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.'
"Jesus also said, 'Everything is possible for him who believes.' As I have told you, and as Jesus taught, belief is the most powerful force on Earth and of the spirit. For through belief all things are possible. You will remember that belief was important before you fused body and mind as one, and this absolute belief is the basic truth of healing.
"This belief empowers all things."

Love
Grandfather continued explaining the similarities to what he taught and the teachings of the Bible. "You will also remember that I taught you that love is what drives us from the wilderness to help the lost and searching masses. Love causes us to give up many of our dreams, for that love is more powerful than our dreams.
"Love, too, is a great power, for it motivates us to empower others. Jesus also said, 'Love your enemies.' Christ taught us to lay down our lives for others. Laying down one's life does not always mean death but giving up some of the things we cherish in order to love and help others. To be willing to sacrifice all for your brothers and sisters is to know the power of love.

www.survival.org.au...

Peace,
spec

Originally posted by Trublbrwing
reply to post by Hessling

 

The goat herder goes to Heaven, he is innocent.
You and your kin go to Hell for discussing it.

Ouch!

Seriously?

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


speculativeoptimist,

Your posting in reference to Tom Brown Jr.'s story really struck me as something both profound as well as wonderful.

I have never heard this story before and now I feel as though reading it has made my OP totally worth the while.

Still haven't watch the vids, but believe me I will.

Thanks!

reply to post by Hessling


John 14:6 “…’I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’”.

The problem here is that these were words Jesus spoke according to his disciples. If anyone is familiar with present-day disciple/master relationships, they would be aware that what the master said and what the disciples hear are often quite different, especially in orientation. The disciples so adore the master, that they will often reconstruct his words (possibly unconsciously) to elevate the status of their beloved master.

For instance, Jesus may have said that there is only one way to the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except through this way. The disciples, on hearing this, assume that their beloved Jesus is the one and only who can show this way, so his statement is reworded to elevate Jesus as the only way to the Father.

Another related example is where Jesus is supposed to have said that he is the only begotten son of God. The enthusiastic disciples could easily have rendered "only the begotten son" as "the only beggotten son". A simple transposition of words resulting in an entirely different meaning.

The point I am trying to make here is that even if there were only one way to God, it would surely lie within every one of us, and we are not in a position to judge definitively who is walking this way or who is not. At best, we may have an idea about the state of our own soul, but even there we may be mistaken.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Trublbrwing

 

Troubles you? I'm sorry, but it should relieve you to realize that native peoples immediately called bullcrap on the ideas that were forced on them for clear and logical reasons. That is a statement of the triumph of logical thought.

I should have been more clear on that. It troubles me because it points to the fact that the bible was written by men to serve their purpose. The ten commandments are a list of things rich men need to keep poor men from doing to them, hence the prohibition of theft and coveting.

Originally posted by Hessling

Originally posted by Trublbrwing
reply to post by Hessling

 

The goat herder goes to Heaven, he is innocent.
You and your kin go to Hell for discussing it.

Ouch!

Seriously?

No.
The goat herder goes to Hell too.