Death & The Afterlife

reply to post by xFloggingMaryx


Mary, I predict your thread is going to "come back to life", now that you posted those awesome pics!

You got my star.

I'll have to come back and maybe reply about your "hell" comments later, but just had to put out my "prediction".

This is ATS after all!

JR

HELL.

Definitely an unpopular topic.

Interestingly, the idea still seems to fit into people's beliefs, some way or another. Whether their idea involves reincarnating as a lower form, or burning in literal flames, lots of people seem to need "justice" to be done.

And let's face it, there is little justice in "this" life, in spite of people who may say otherwise. The concept of justice seems to almost "require" something beyond the grave, to "balance" things out.

In another thread, someone mentioned that they believe that karma delivers an "immediate" and "equal" return for actions, good or bad. Well, that would be nice, but such an idea is contrary to common sense, IMO. Hitler may have died in his bunker, and Stalin may have died groveling in his own waste, but how was this "just", when seen against the immense suffering of so many thousands / millions?

It's not. The obvious conclusion seems to be that this life is not enough to account for major misdeeds. Of course, the same may be said of some of the good we see. Mother Teresa is often cited as a modern "saintly" soul. She apparently literally reached down into the gutter to pull up filthy and diseased "untouchables", to give them a chance at some dignity, even if they didn't manage to live that long. Year, after year, this heroic woman somehow managed to put aside her "self", to help the unfortunate that no one else would help.

No doubt, Mother Teresa is an example of someone who not only "made a difference", but at least humanly speaking, was "deserving" of a "reward" far exceeding anything this life would have to offer her.

Such a contemplation could lead us now to "heaven", but I suppose I should linger with that "other place" for another moment.

The OP mentions that hell is possibly a state of being, not so much a "place" of torments. Certainly, for those who have read her recommendation, C.S. Lewis' Great Divorce, the concept is explored in detail.

Can a person live their short life on earth, and somehow "become" (through their bad choices presumably) incapable of escaping "negativity", or karma, or the bed they made? Could it be not so much due to the demands of cosmic "justice", but more to do with the fact that they get to a point where they are "incapable" of existing in an unselfish "state", even if one was provided? Could a person be offered "heaven", but find that they simply can't stand it when they get there? If so, "where" would they go?

As for an "eternal" hell, perhaps that's a different story, although the very rational C. S. Lewis seemed to make a case for a sort of habitual "permanence", where a soul might "never" get to a point where they could "endure" heaven. Instead, their selfishness would result in placing themselves ever further away from "heaven", and so, we might rightly call this "state"...Hell.

(I know, too many words in "quotes"!)

A difficult subject matter, but we shouldn't be afraid to confront it, and perhaps discus it, even if our beliefs differ.

JR

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
It's not. The obvious conclusion seems to be that this life is not enough to account for major misdeeds. Of course, the same may be said of some of the good we see. Mother Teresa is often cited as a modern "saintly" soul. She apparently literally reached down into the gutter to pull up filthy and diseased "untouchables", to give them a chance at some dignity, even if they didn't manage to live that long. Year, after year, this heroic woman somehow managed to put aside her "self", to help the unfortunate that no one else would help.

No doubt, Mother Teresa is an example of someone who not only "made a difference", but at least humanly speaking, was "deserving" of a "reward" far exceeding anything this life would have to offer her.

Are you serious? Teresa was a shrew obsessed with suffering and her missions offered nothing but deplorable conditions for people with terminal illnesses, who died in extreme, unnecessary pain. It's a shame there is no Hell for her to burn in.

On the topic of "afterlife", neither theological arguments nor the testimony of those who've experience NDE's are valid evidence of any "afterlife". There remains no evidence that any living thing survives death and goes to some mystical place. I know we'd all like to think we can survive death, and that perhaps there will be some cosmic justice system in the "afterlife" that doles out due punishments and rewards but this is the caveman portion of our brains at work. Let's accept that there is no evidence to support these ideas and face reality with a truthful, honest assessment of the facts.

reply to post by CCKP72


here is one mans story it is a 2 part video, it was also seen on the history chanel www.ourlifeafterdeath.com...

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

Teresa was a shrew obsessed with suffering and her missions offered nothing but deplorable conditions for people with terminal illnesses, who died in extreme, unnecessary pain. It's a shame there is no Hell for her to burn in.

I guess anytime a particular person is mentioned, you can get someone who "hates" that person!

Mother Teresa? Seriously? Why not hate Hitler instead?

Actually, I have no idea about Mother Teresa's interior dispositions, perhaps she was obsessed with suffering, maybe she was a shrew...Who knows? (Maybe you knew her personally, if so, my apologies for my ignorant mischaracterization of her.)

In any case, she is popularly thought of as a "saint", and in this sense, I used this notion to hopefully convey my idea. I probably could have chosen better, but my real point was that this life is clearly "unfair", and whether we look at the issue from the positive, or the negative, this one life just doesn't cut it when it comes to balancing the scales of justice.

Whether this apparent human "need" to have justice somehow is due to remnants of the "caveman", I couldn't say, but the issue is certainly a valid philosophical one to consider.

As you well know! After all, what would be the point of even talking about Euthyphro's Dilemma, trying to figure out what exactly was "good", or right?

While Socrates' final conclusion was that there were indeed only questions, not answers, I'm pretty sure his legacy does not mean we should therefore not bother striving for answers.

Do we "know" there is a life after death? Obviously, no one knows, but this fact shouldn't become an excuse to dismiss thinking about it.

JR

Originally posted by xFloggingMaryx
Whenever the concept of hell is brought up, people automatically attack and say, “You’re stupid enough to believe in a concept that was made up by an institution with the intent of controlling the masses into behaving?” Sure… that might be what the purpose of the ‘existence’ of hell is, but what if it’s more of an abstract concept? It’s obviously not a pit of fire and brimstone as we’re taught… but perhaps it’s more of a state of consciousness. Hell is a much more difficult concept to think about (than heaven, that is)… mostly because great thinkers don’t often like to spend their time contemplating it.

But that's what I want to talk about more. Few children do experience NDE about hell. And some adults do experience that fire and brimstone kind of hell.. and sometimes worms, which doesn't make much sense. There are worms in hell? That's just like in the bible.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
On the topic of "afterlife", neither theological arguments nor the testimony of those who've experience NDE's are valid evidence of any "afterlife". There remains no evidence that any living thing survives death and goes to some mystical place.

This doesn't make any sense...

People have actually physically died and come back to life and described observations.

Now you can rationalize this evidence to fit you preconceived notions of realty but you can't claim it doesn't exist...

if I had known you like death so much I would've mentioned the abortion associated to the invisible voice that said He was Jesus in your other thread.. there is another experience though that occured when I was @13 which was a powerful looking winged Angel bright like lightning even in the eyes (looked directly at me) that had landed on the neighbors roof across the street one night and believe it must have been the same night the guy had hung himself in his garage.. worth noting as well is the friend who witnessed it with me ended up killing himself also, both relative to missing their brides and family supposedly

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
It's not. The obvious conclusion seems to be that this life is not enough to account for major misdeeds. Of course, the same may be said of some of the good we see. Mother Teresa is often cited as a modern "saintly" soul. She apparently literally reached down into the gutter to pull up filthy and diseased "untouchables", to give them a chance at some dignity, even if they didn't manage to live that long. Year, after year, this heroic woman somehow managed to put aside her "self", to help the unfortunate that no one else would help.

No doubt, Mother Teresa is an example of someone who not only "made a difference", but at least humanly speaking, was "deserving" of a "reward" far exceeding anything this life would have to offer her.

On the topic of "afterlife", neither theological arguments nor the testimony of those who've experience NDE's are valid evidence of any "afterlife". There remains no evidence that any living thing survives death and goes to some mystical place. I know we'd all like to think we can survive death, and that perhaps there will be some cosmic justice system in the "afterlife" that doles out due punishments and rewards but this is the caveman portion of our brains at work. Let's accept that there is no evidence to support these ideas and face reality with a truthful, honest assessment of the facts.

The idea of getting some type of measurable evidence for the existence of an afterlife is the wrong way to approach the problem. It's like trying to measure consciousness and subjective experience with traditional scientific methods; it doesn't work in the slightest due to the fundamental nature of these phenomena.

Discussing the possibilities/existence of an afterlife is still a perfectly valid philosophical avenue to take.

reply to post by xFloggingMaryx


This says it all for me...

William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
The Two Trees
BELOVED, gaze in thine own heart,
The holy tree is growing there;
From joy the holy branches start,
And all the trembling flowers they bear.
The changing colours of its fruit
Have dowered the stars with merry light;
The surety of its hidden root
Has planted quiet in the night;
The shaking of its leafy head
Has given the waves their melody,
And made my lips and music wed,
Murmuring a wizard song for thee.
There the Loves a circle go,
The flaming circle of our days,
Gyring, spiring to and fro
In those great ignorant leafy ways;
Remembering all that shaken hair
And how the wingèd sandals dart,
Thine eyes grow full of tender care:
Beloved, gaze in thine own heart.

Gaze no more in the bitter glass
The demons, with their subtle guile,
Lift up before us when they pass,
Or only gaze a little while;
For there a fatal image grows
That the stormy night receives,
Roots half hidden under snows,
Broken boughs and blackened leaves.
For all things turn to barrenness
In the dim glass the demons hold,
The glass of outer weariness,
Made when God slept in times of old.
There, through the broken branches, go
The ravens of unresting thought;
Flying, crying, to and fro,
Cruel claw and hungry throat,
Or else they stand and sniff the wind,
And shake their ragged wings; alas!
Thy tender eyes grow all unkind:
Gaze no more in the bitter glass.

I found this thread through another link and thought I would post my opinion, since my experience is just that mine own and can not be proven or other wise. There's a lot of talk about death, near death, afterlife, no afterlife etc.....

So I guess I'll start with my near death experiences, When I was 18 I had a mass infection in my brain and spine. For two weeks my brain had swelled till finally my brain and body could handle no more. My body went into grandma seizures and quit. I was revived and woke from a coma with nothing. I remember nothing but empty blackness I have no feeling of anything until my first moments of coming awake. It wasn't disorientation but a silent buzzing feeling. I couldn't feel the buzzing either I just knew it was there and it was empty for the first moments until reality kicked in.

Unfortunately my diagnosis was the doctors had done all they can and could do no more for me, my body would either recover or give out only time would tell. My second takes place weeks later. In this experience there is no blackness but a judgement more of my making. At this time in my life I believed I was a horrible person and undeserving, this was my punishment. Did I kill anyone no but I had my reasons for this. Anyway In this experience I was with a group a people and we were trying to survive what was left of humanity zombies, corny I know but it's a fear of mine none the less and during this time I faced many trials where I could have left people behind, sacrificed them and cared only for my safety but I didn't.

In the end there were three of us remaining we ran into an amusement park and were cornered on a roller coaster at the bottom of the hill. On my left side of the roller coaster was a sea of zombies they had the front line had hold of us when the sun began to rise. The zombies weren't holding us anymore they were all of a sudden standing in front of us at the same time the other two were no longer on the coaster with me but gone. As the sun rose higher the zombies became dead relatives and friends with my aunt right upfront in the middle. No they didn't grow their skin back or anything grotesque. They just became. Now in the very front I knew most everyone but as I looked out I didn't know them but I felt familiarity coming from them. My aunt smiled at me and the coaster began going up the first hill, as it came down that hill I came out of the seat and had a moment of panic before I began moving in the air in what felt like away but close to all the people.

The sky was a beautiful morning and it was peaceful, safe and I would say I was flying because I was moving in a general direction in the sky, and no it was not like superman flying. I'd say floating because it felt more like that but to float you generally do not move like I was. Just above and off to my left side I felt a male presence come in close then was on my left side entirely I couldn't see him but he felt like safe, strong, and he had the authority. And by authority I don't mean, mean but gentle yet firm. He was like everyone I would need him to be without being able to see him, he was there but his form wasn't recognizable but he was everything I described and it was alright.
Anyway he said to me I can keep my eyes closed or open them I chose to open them. Their standing in the doorway upset is my mother who was down the hall in another room. She came to my room knowing. She's never wanted to discuss that to this day and I won't push the issue with her because she gets upset and cries.

Is that absolute proof....no, it's an experience like anyone else who's had near deaths. These are moments that are taken more on faith than conclusive evidence. But with many of these threads the topic of peoples energy or lack there of is brought up along with life/no life after death. Again I'll have to use experiences for this. Shortly after I was born my parents smelled my dead grandmother on my fathers side perfume. She like most women had a particular perfume she wore they followed the smell from the living room right to my crib in my bedroom.

When I was twelve a male spoke to me in my right ear as I watched television laying on the floor. He told me something that would happen in the future, and it did even after I was warned aannnddd ignored it. Was this god No, it was my dead father. When I was fourteen or fifteen I was in my room listening to music. My mom and aunt were out in the living room talking. I had a sharp jarring feeling and knew it was my grandfather on my mothers side had died. I ran out of my room turned the corner to the living room. They asked me what was wrong and I told them the phones gonna ring about grandpa and it did, he died. What I'm getting at is energy, we are energy it took energy for these experiences to happen. These weren't living people but people that had passed away.

With all the many experiences around the world is it so hard to believe or be open minded to the possibility that there is life after death, near death experiences etc...... Most of what we know today in the scientific world began with a thought, a theory.........Heck even some of what was thought to have been already proven was something else or more.... We're still learning and discovering to this very day and maybe for those who need solid in your hand proof, you'll have that one day and be more open minded to many more possibilities in the future.

reply to post by finitydream


Thanks so much for sharing your experience!! I'm glad you got through that illness and survived, must have been an awful time

Having not had any near death experiences myself, I love to hear what other people have to say. And this anecdote is rather unique, what with the zombies and the roller coaster and stuff... or whether that has anything to do with what you said about not living a good life at the time.

I'm shamelessly bumpin' this cuz I've been reading a lot of death & afterlife based threads lately...

I know, I'm a tool.

Originally posted by zatara
Life is a lesson is what many people and religions say...Okay,then what? How does this work?

It is my intuitive belief that we eventually incarnate into a terrestrial being who's technological capabilities have overcome most obstacles of scarcity, such as food and shelter...energy needs etc., and are fully immortal.
It is then, when technology and grace allows, that we will step into the realm of the terrestrial shepherds and guides, as well as other activities, in the never ending growth of consciousness in gods creation...

Short version is being born again and use the previous lessons learned for the up and coming life? Or are those lessons of any use to a person when being conciouss in the afterlife?

Some of the things you learn in each life will come into play in further lives...in subconscious ways.
All of what you learn is stored in the eternal imprint. (Akashic), of "what has already come" and "what is"; Only the Creator knows which of the "shall be's" shall be, however...

Why the procedure of reincarnation anyway?

The Caduceus, the primal plan whose origins are lost in the infiinities, is the supernal grace technology of life itself.
However, it is powered by the will of the (Creator/Creation), not yours.
You, as a seperate child of the creation must learn in order to grow into your potential...
This is, and has always been, the path of new consciousness...

Must everybody reincarnate to finally reach that goal of eternal bliss...?
Why not be happy with the way you are and able to accept everybody else as the way they are?

Eternal Bliss? Doesn't sound very conscious... Dissolution or unification with the source of all things and "no"things, I suppose could be considered eternal bliss... I firmly believe you have the option to "not exist" if you so wish...

As for me, I will try to be what I have always known...conscious and alive...

How many lives, and what kinds they are, I suspect, is a matter of personal choice by the higher self...

You are not the same as "you" that was present when you were two years old, which of those two aspects of "you" would you choose to remain forever?

*If you see a consecutive life as not being "different" but rather another name that you go by now, you might begin to see that there is not really much change to the core being.
For example, you may have been called "junior" when you were young, but may be called by a more adult name now, such as "Sir"... Does this mean, that the individual who was once called "junior" has ceased to exist?

You can only learn from a lesson if you can remember that lesson.
Suppose I die, would I not remember all the previous lessons `lifes` and because of that have an other personality in the afterlife?

*(See above description)

Also, ...lets pretend for a moment that we have a time machine that can take you, invisibly, to any moment in time, and a hat that allows you to read minds as well as see and understand many things about the area that you didnt know before...
In effect, the universe itself is our Akashic record...our stored data. In the zero point realm of the ethereal there is no true "travel" as we know it...

I can go on and on with such questions. And when I try to reduce it all into one single question I come to.....What is the purpose of being aware of your excistance?

What is the point of watching a beautiful sunset? The laughter in your childs eyes? The culmination of a lifes work? The advancement of a sentient species? The creation of a new world?

Because we can...and will...