About Transhumanism Again, Not Enough Is Brought To This Subject

reply to post by renegadeloser


I think that the subjects of Transhumanism, Philosophy, Mysticism, Religion, Human Ascention and Science all touch.

Too many people are reductionist in looking at human potentiality and see some horror freakshow as our future because they think that were we will be, will be like where we are now, with some bolt on hardware.

But we feel and know things and have neural pathways for stuff that has no bearing on our current reality.

To quote C. S. Lewis, "If I find in myself, desires; nothing in this world can satisfy, I can only conclude I was not made for here".

reply to post by renegadeloser


Why would you would kill yourself out in the matter universe because you were also virualised?

They would be two different experience paths and you could share minds/experiences.

I'd bet, you'd absolutely love yourself!

reply to post by chr0naut


One additional thought, why are the things which are "wrong" or sin or whatever you want to call them, wrong at all?

Perhaps because they are the very things that prevent the level of sharing required to participate in our next stages as a species.

Why is guilt a sin? Why is pride a sin? Perhaps God is very much on our side in all this and has a plan bigger than fits our minds just now.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Logos Apologia is my site and I wrote the piece linked above on Transcendent Man. I agree this is an extremely important topic. I see a couple posters have indicated that they believe in consciousness uploading. I think this is a mistake, it is logically incoherent. According to Kurzweil, human immortality can be obtained by uploading your consciousness in the form of an information pattern, to demonstrate why this is incoherent I will offer a thought experiment. Place yourself in this scenario:

The idea is that you are an astronaut going on a mission to a distant planet via a new form of teleportation. To accomplish this, your brain pattern and body type will be uploaded and sent to the planet to be reconstructed from matter precisely engineered from your scan. In the process, your body on earth will be destroyed, but this is not concerning because you will soon be in your new body. Should you go? In Kurzweil’s paradigm it should work but in reality it does not.

It is not so much a matter of metaphysics as logic. The law of non-contradiction will not allow it. Consider a scenario where you are not destroyed on earth yet the upload is successful. Obviously, the person on the other planet is not you. Since this person is clearly not you in this case, it follows that it is also not you if you were destroyed. Hence, the other person is merely your clone not you. So while you could feasibly copy data about yourself -- it will never really be you.

You must of seen "Think Like a Dinosaur" on the Outer Limits Series. Everyone who thinks uploading your mind into a machine is a good idea, watch that TV episode.

Either way, star for you and pity this concept is lost on many.

Originally posted by renegadeloser
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

I believe in a soul, however, I do not believe that emotions originate in the soul. (I prefer the term spirit). I think that a clone could be endowed with spirit, because we will not have created it. It was already created, we merely planted the seed. The genetic matter is the seed. We insert the seed into the egg, and put it into the womb. All we de is put the right part in the right place at the right time... insert part a into slot b. In the case of cloning we haven't created life any more than you created a table when you buy one of those assemble it yourself kits from walmart.

edit on 22-3-2011 by renegadeloser because: again... grammatical errors. I should really start reading these before I post them.

Every time man messes with nature he screws it up, all you got to do is look around you at what is going on in the world today. As far as cloning, it's just going to be another screw up, man playing god. It is pure arrogance to fool around with creation and to try and as they want to say, make a better human being. People are like moths to a flame, eventually they'll get burned.

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by chr0naut

 

One additional thought, why are the things which are "wrong" or sin or whatever you want to call them, wrong at all?

Perhaps because they are the very things that prevent the level of sharing required to participate in our next stages as a species.

Why is guilt a sin? Why is pride a sin? Perhaps God is very much on our side in all this and has a plan bigger than fits our minds just now.

edit on 22/3/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)

So what, it's not wrong to murder, it's not wrong to have sex with as many women as you can and have a few illegitimate children scattered all over the place to make society more screwed up? And while your at it with the sex part maybe spread STD's too.
It's not wrong to steal, it's not wrong to have an affair with your best friends wife, or your neighbors?
Or how about being so damn proud not to say sorry to someone you hurt.
Or love money so much, that you will do whatever it takes to have more and more.
I hope you get the point, we need limits, and rules set in place to stop greed and disrespect, and there are consequences for every individuals actions and a responsibility to own up.

A long and interesting study on Transhumanism has been done, and the consequences of such a thing.

Tom Horn - Transhumanism - Science & Supernatural Conference

reply to post by hawaii50th


I agree that all the things you mention are wrong and sin and can cause short term damage to life and lifestyle.

What I was getting at is that perhaps there is a deeper reason for this than just genetic or mimetic preservation.

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

I agree that all the things you mention are wrong and sin and can cause short term damage to life and lifestyle.

For one doing wrong or committing sin can cause long term and permanent damage, like rape the psychological damage, murder I think that's pretty permanent damage. Unless your talking about forgiveness of sin, than that's another topic.

What I was getting at is that perhaps there is a deeper reason for this than just genetic or mimetic preservation.

Now if your talking transhumanism, the implications to this are almost infinite. Lets start with militarizing it, the uses are far and wide with something like this, policing cities, government uses, security private and global, and more.
What looks good and exciting is usually too good to be good.

This is Data from Star Trek Voyager, The Terminator, Splice and whatever other movie that's out there that I may have missed and I know there's more, coming to life.

Ever hear of the Nephilim?

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

Would your uploaded self feel like you, think like you & have all your memories up to the upload?

Of course.

It could never be the physical you but in all other aspects (except law) it would be indistiguishable.

edit on 21/3/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)

You cannot upload yourself... period. It will only be a copy of your data it is not you. The thought experiment above proves it. It might seem indistinguishable to someone else but that is not the point. It's still not you.

reply to post by chr0naut

To quote C. S. Lewis, "If I find in myself, desires; nothing in this world can satisfy, I can only conclude I was not made for here".

This quote by the way that you wrote by C.S. Lewis, do you know what he meant by it? You do know that he was a Christian by the way?

Originally posted by chr0naut
Would your uploaded self feel like you, think like you & have all your memories up to the upload?

People should be very wary of it. Imagine the feeling that one may have if they were enclosed in a coffin with no way out - or worse if you suddenly could not move. The 'dream' of 'immortality' might create an 'immortal psychosis'. I certainly would not be jumping to be hooked up unless every feeling of the human body was replicated. I think even the slightest restriction would drive me insane.

reply to post by korathin


No I never saw that "think like a dinosaur" but it sounds interesting! I actually wrote a paper in graduate school on the subject of transhumanism as it interfaces with a Christian worldview. It is published at Tom Horn's site Raiders News Network here . In that paper I critiqued a lot of Kurzweil's ideas from his books The Age of Spiritual Machines and The Singularity is Near. I also went back and forth quite a bit with the President of the Mormon Transhumanist Assoc. here

reply to post by ararisq


OK please think about it - if they copy you pattern and upload it - you are still in your body, they simply copied the data - YOU never go anywhere. You are not just a bunch of data. The whole idea of uploading is complete nonsense. Think about it.

Tom Horn has written a book called, "FORBIDDEN GATES" that has eye opening information on this subject. I think he has a very good handle on what the future holds for transhumanism.
Another good author and speaker is L.A. Marzulli, on these topics and more. Having been into the new age movement and realizing the flaws and ideas in that religion had become a Christian a long while ago.

reply to post by hawaii50th


I was aware that C. S. Lewis was a Christian, as am I (born again type).

In John's Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Church (potentially billions of people) are spoken of as "the Bride of Christ".

Taken along with other clues (such as Jesus describing to the Pharisees that there is "no marriage in heaven") leads me to believe that we are destined for unity beyond what we know now.

That being said, there also still appears to be individuality too.

reply to post by ararisq


How could I put this (because I don't want you to feel I am disregarding your genuine and quite reasonable ideas)?

Aren't you now, bound in a physical reality of sickness, dissapointment, death and pain. Stuck firmly to the surface of a speck of dust in a vast universe you can never hope to know or explore. You don't seem to be displaying any psychosis about this situation.

The truth is an incomfortable thing to face.

Perhaps there could be something better than here & now?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


If your virtualised copy is in the machine isn't it another you in another place? It does not mean you have moved into the machine from your external viewpoint but from the "you" in the machine you have.

reply to post by chr0naut


Ok... the way I see it is there is no "you" in the machine at all. It's just a machine with a copy of your data. You haven't changed and you are not on the network.

Your consciousness is not just a bunch of information. There is an immaterial you that is more properly though of in spiritual terms. It certainly exists - as your thoughts are not material. Your thought life proves your immaterial self.

An analogy might help. If I take a picture of you to Hawaii will you experience the sun there? Of course not.

If your brain pattern is copied it isn't a lot different than a photo its just more data about you. It is not you. You do not change or go anywhere.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


The data in the machine, though, is not static. It is processing and self modifying just like the processes operating in your brain.