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Did Jesus Really Make A Sacrifice?

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posted on Jun, 1 2011 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 





Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Nice anology....



Thanks…




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
.... but if a soldier needed to spread an important message, would he send the messenger to the less-literated, less advanced indviduals first? Or would he disseminate the message to the one's that could read and write first?

In short, why does God send Jesus to the less-literate parts of the desert? Why not to the Chinese who could read and write at the time, who had a civilisation.?



Well, that’s a good question; at the time of Jesus, people spoke and wrote in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and many other languages. So even if a larger proportion of the population (not sure of the exact statistics for this) were illiterate, it didn’t prevent Jesus message from being written down and recorded by those who were able to do so.


Take a good look around you today…the bible has been translated into just about every known language there is. So taking into account, the potentiality of a large amount of less-literate people at the time of Jesus, it looks as though Gods message somehow kept itself alive…don’t you think?


- JC

edit on 1-6-2011 by Joecroft because: missing quotations

edit on 1-6-2011 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 2 2011 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



it looks as though Gods message somehow kept itself alive…don’t you think?


Oh it would be magical to think that it was God's will, it really would.

Firstly, it's quite evident that the Roman Emperor Constantine declared it as the religion of the empire, and thus it's inevitable spread to the nations which it conquered.

Secondaly, At times where there is no knowledge of the universe, of our planets relation to the universe and the Sun, people preached Hellfire, Priests preached that children who don't get baptised go to purgotory, to limbo - Which mother, looking out for the best, would not want to adhere to this religion, and bow down to God?

You use the "appeal to majority" argument, that because it's survived to this day that it is therefore "divine" or "righteous" or "holy" but you forget, or are ignorant of the means by which it formed it's power, and still is in the Middle-East, these "God laws" are ruling countries; Iran, Saudi Arabia. - That means no homosexality, opression of womens freedom, and other bizarre dogmatic "traditions"

You can thank YOUR constitution that it separates church from state, that it stop's theocratic nonsense encroaching on free enquiry and intellectual criticism.

Remember what religion has done, remember the division it's caused, remember the pain, and the conflicts (Ireland, Israel, Egypt and MANY MANY more now, and throughout history. Simply because they chose to worship "GOD" in a different way, and because the God's of different scriptures have promised land in the scirptures.

There can be no truce between the believers of different Religions, for by the very belief in the doctrines words declares that anyone not of Religion X is a "sinner" or is a sub-par human for not adhering to the "good" doctrine.

It's very easy to understand all of this mayhem when we understand that it is the words of man in those books, not the word of God.
edit on 2/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 



Thanks for your reply and this may come as a surprise, but I actually agree, in part, with many of the things you have mentioned.

I should just preface what I am about to say, by stating that I am NOT a Christian fundamentalist and I did not have any Christian upbringing at all. I used to be an Atheist and until very recently did not believe in God or Jesus.

I have only recently come to believe in Jesus over the last 2 and a half years, due to various spiritual experiences that I have had, while I was searching for God and studying Christianity and debating with Christians from various denominations. Over that time period, I had a number of spiritual experiences, which I just could not explain (at the time), which culminated in me having an encounter with Jesus, while I was reading the gospel of John one night.

I don’t even classify myself as a Christian, because there are many parts of Christianity that I have rejected, although having said that, there are many other parts of Christianity that I do accept and believe in.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Oh it would be magical to think that it was God's will, it really would.

Firstly, it's quite evident that the Roman Emperor Constantine declared it as the religion of the empire, and thus it's inevitable spread to the nations which it conquered.

Secondaly, At times where there is no knowledge of the universe, of our planets relation to the universe and the Sun, people preached Hellfire, Priests preached that children who don't get baptised go to purgotory, to limbo - Which mother, looking out for the best, would not want to adhere to this religion, and bow down to God?


Well, the thing you have to bear in mind here, is that after Jesus life, death and resurrection, (assuming you can entertain the later) there were a number of competing theories, as to what Jesus life teachings and death/resurrection were really all about.

For 200 years after Jesus death, there was much ongoing debate, correspondence and discussions between many of the early believers in Jesus, which included the Gnostics, various Jewish sects, and what we consider today, to be the early Christian believers.

There were many agreements in the early theology of Jesus but there were also enough disagreements, to make one perfect and complete universal doctrine, almost impossible to be agreed upon.

This is where Rome, with it’s power and influence stepped in, to declare what that perfect doctrine should be… and in my opinion, many mistakes were made, regarding the theology around Jesus life and teachings.

I personally do not believe in the Hellfire doctrine and neither do a few other Christian denominations that I am aware of. There are many verses within the bible that suggest that the Hellfire doctrine is not a correct one. This is a large topic in itself, and is not really the subject of this thread…suffice to say, that for me, believing in Jesus is about people finding and coming to know God, through Jesus words, and then entering into a spiritual relationship with him, and IMO it has nothing to do with condemnation.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Remember what religion has done, remember the division it's caused, remember the pain, and the conflicts (Ireland, Israel, Egypt and MANY MANY more now, and throughout history. Simply because they chose to worship "GOD" in a different way, and because the God's of different scriptures have promised land in the scirptures.


Yes, I agree but it is only because men in their ignorance and misunderstanding of God, between the different religious groups, that these atrocities have taken place. My personal take on this, is that God has spoken through many people/prophets but that it has all come from the same “one God” and that it is only men in there misunderstanding of God, who created the divisions that exist in religions today. For example, Islam, Judaism and Christianity all believe in the God of the Old Testament, they just happen to believe in the same “God”, but just in different ways.

It should also not be forgotten, that there have been numerous wars from the beginning of time, for all manner of reasons and not just over religion. Men have fought over money, greed, power, politics, land, resources, disagreements, and in the battle of Troy, they even fought over a woman!



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You use the "appeal to majority" argument, that because it's survived to this day that it is therefore "divine" or "righteous" or "holy" but you forget, or are ignorant of the means by which it formed it's power, and still is in the Middle-East, these "God laws" are ruling countries; Iran, Saudi Arabia. - That means no homosexality, opression of womens freedom, and other bizarre dogmatic "traditions"


Again, I kind of agree with you here but on the contrary, I am fully aware of the means by which it formed its power and it is that which I partly disagree with and is one of the many reasons why, I cannot classify myself as a modern day Christian, even though I believe in Jesus.

When I said in my last post that God’s word had survived, I don’t mean the doctrines of men and the picking and choosing of which texts should go into a book we call the bible, and which ones should not. I’m talking about Jesus actual words and the words of God speaking through him, that have survived. That for me is the real word of God.


- JC



posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


Even though I’m not supporting Christianity, Judaism, Islam or any other major religion, I think you must make a decision based on the fruits you perceive coming from said religion. The stance on gays and future punishment I think have made many a person turn away. In my mind its not which one is most “accurate” as there is no way to tell. To be accurate it must be compared to something and what would that be? I think it comes down to the given person moral and ethics and almost have the attitude of what you would do if you had the power of God. That is how I looked at it as a young man and would argue how could I be more just than God? I did not get a good answer from them.

It boils down to faith. Consider the following:

From paper 101 The Real Nature of Religion

“Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.

Belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. But living religious faith is more than the association of noble beliefs; it is more than an exalted system of philosophy; it is a living experience concerned with spiritual meanings, divine ideals, and supreme values; it is God-knowing and man-serving. Beliefs may become group possessions, but faith must be personal. Theologic beliefs can be suggested to a group, but faith can rise up only in the heart of the individual religionist.

Faith has falsified its trust when it presumes to deny realities and to confer upon its devotees assumed knowledge. Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.”

Concerning being open minded, I consider myself to be. I looked into many different things over the years to include the darker stuff. None of it made sense. Especially thinking of it universally. I sought out teachings that embraced all of creation. The Urantia Book is the only thing I’ve thus found that really seemed to take into account the entire cosmos with its diverse forms of life.

The Urantia Book has a pretty interesting account of Evolution. They call it progressive evolution. It’s God’s time/space technique for creation. When God wants to create a fully developed being he does so. We are the type of creation that is to grow and develop. The post I had on courage, loyalty, etc… I think shows the difference between these type of attributes from a perfect being or a perfecting being.

From paper 48:

“THE Gods cannot — at least they do not — transform a creature of gross animal nature into a perfected spirit by some mysterious act of creative magic. When the Creators desire to produce perfect beings, they do so by direct and original creation, but they never undertake to convert animal-origin and material creatures into beings of perfection in a single step.”

I watched the video you posted about Richard Dawkins and I was not convinced. What immediately came to my mind was rocket engine designs. Engineers quite often use varying lengths of wire to control firing sequences. Perhaps this nerve is that long for a similar reason? I think don’t think we have the necessary knowledge or tools to say with 100% certainty what a nerve is used for. It could have functions that are completely unexpected.

Check out papers 36 (The Life Carriers) and paper 58 (Life Establishment on Urantia) ( www.urantia.org... )



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



I should just preface what I am about to say, by stating that I am NOT a Christian fundamentalist and I did not have any Christian upbringing at all.


Such a preface isn't required.


I used to be an Atheist and until very recently did not believe in God or Jesus.


So what lead you to the belief in a God? And what type of God? Omnipotent? Intervening? A 24/7 Observer? A Creator?

You understand the difference between Theism and Deism right?


Deism in the philosophy of religion is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is a creation and has a creator.



Theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God's relationship to the universe.


You've already admitted your belief in the Christian (THEIST) doctrine; Jesus Christ. Now which is it? Do you believe in the authenticity of the man-written bible? Or do you believe in God in a general sense? In a "creator" theory. So are you a Christian or not?


I don’t even classify myself as a Christian, because there are many parts of Christianity that I have rejected, although having said that, there are many other parts of Christianity that I do accept and believe in.


You agree with (some?) of it's dogma, and you claim it's through a "spiritual" experience, you hav realised Jesus? Could you tell me how? Could you explain how the dogma or "story" of Jesus Christ is affirmed by your spirtual experiences?


Well, the thing you have to bear in mind here, is that after Jesus life, death and resurrection, (assuming you can entertain the later) there were a number of competing theories, as to what Jesus life teachings and death/resurrection were really all about.


There are, and many of them are immmoral and uethical teachings that are founded by the original doctrines passages (which are declaration of what Jesus said, how he told people to live)


Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied:


1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

4) Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

5) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)

6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)



Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21


All i state, is that we've improved the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus, and just because Jesus may have had good meaning, like Ghandi, or Martin Luther King, doesn't make the bible true, and it doesn't mean Jesus was divine, or that his ethical and moral teaching was the best we'll ever had.


This is where Rome, with it’s power and influence stepped in, to declare what that perfect doctrine should be… and in my opinion, many mistakes were made, regarding the theology around Jesus life and teachings.


Indeed, as i've just affirmed above and Jesus has many characterists that have been plagiriased from pagan origins, or ancient mythology:-

(Born of a virgin, ressurected, a divine "mission")


I personally do not believe in the Hellfire doctrine and neither do a few other Christian denominations that I am aware of.


Yes, some of the doctrine of Christianity has been "reformed". You have Mormons or the Quakers, where violence is directly condemned in their doctrine. Just because it is "updated" doesn't make it "holy". It just shows that ancient religion is out of date for our time.


There are many verses within the bible that suggest that the Hellfire doctrine is not a correct one.


But it's still proposed, and religion has gained their followers for centuries by preaching just that. It wasn't only charity they were preaching, and people certainly were charitable to them for such "eternal" threats.


This is a large topic in itself, and is not really the subject of this thread…suffice to say, that for me, believing in Jesus is about people finding and coming to know God, through Jesus words, and then entering into a spiritual relationship with him, and IMO it has nothing to do with condemnation.


And, in lack the lack of evidence that Jesus was divinely commanded, and that his teaching may have been faulty or unethical, why should anyone commit a spiritual relationship with Jesus, and not just love for existence, and our fellow human beings, why pledge allegiance to one (possible) man that existed?

We have many people who've improved the lives of humanity, even in modern times, Martin Luther Kings, helped wash many of their racial prejudice, Emily Davidson in UK helped fight for women's rights. It's a constant battle, why be so commited to an old doctrine that has shown to be faulty, and shown to cause so much harm.


Just because i'm atheist doesn't mean i can't promote love and soldarity, what has that got to do with Jesus, or a possible theory of the universe (GOD)?


For example, Islam, Judaism and Christianity all believe in the God of the Old Testament, they just happen to believe in the same “God”, but just in different ways.


Oh come on, have you been reading anything i've been writing? I'm about to give up.

The same God?

Juduism thinks God divinely warrants genital mutilation, one of the verses shows a prayer in which men are commmanded to "thank god they were not made a women" - Pretty sexist right?

Islam thinks the "kufirs" (non-believers) should not be considered worthy of society, that they should be stoped until Islam is the only relgion (research that passage!)

Christianity believes that one human sacrifice in can absolve an entire species of their "natural" sin. And that we'll be "saved" only if we consider Jesus' words.

It's all sinister dogma, and they do oppose each other because different God's have different ideas about how to live life, and how to pray to God. That is what THeism is!

Every believer of a religion is an atheist to all the other religions.

I don't believe humans are naturally evil. I don't think the majority of our species wish for destruction, hatred or violence. I don't think we would have got this far if that was the case, we're not a suicidal species; yet if we think it is the "will of God" (religion) we can become suicidal and apocolyptic, and hateful.
edit on 4/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
So what lead you to the belief in a God?


Many things, experiences etc but mainly…
…Jesus



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
And what type of God? Omnipotent? Intervening? A 24/7 Observer? A Creator?


It’s difficult to define God accurately, but I would go with…Creator



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You understand the difference between Theism and Deism right?

Deism in the philosophy of religion is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is a creation and has a creator.
Theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God's relationship to the universe.


Yes, I understand the difference, but I’m not entirely sure why you have brought it up?



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You've already admitted your belief in the Christian (THEIST) doctrine; Jesus Christ. Now which is it? Do you believe in the authenticity of the man-written bible? Or do you believe in God in a general sense? In a "creator" theory. So are you a Christian or not?


I think you have misunderstood what I said in my last post and more importantly, what I was trying to point out to you overall. I said in my last post the following…



Originally posted by Joecroft
I don’t even classify myself as a Christian, because there are many parts of Christianity that I have rejected, although having said that, there are many other parts of Christianity that I do accept and believe in.


I then went on to explain how throughout history, after Jesus death, how man tried to interpret Jesus life and teachings, whereby they decided theology and decided which books would go into a book that today we call the bible. This doesn’t mean however, that they got everything right, which is what I was trying to point out to you in my last post. IMO they got something’s right but they also got many things wrong.

It would take tons and tons of pages to explain all the parts of Christianity I have rejected and the parts I have accepted and the reasons why etc. To be honest, I don’t really pigeon hole myself anymore, I simply believe in Jesus, the God that speaks through him and his message.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You agree with (some?) of it's dogma, and you claim it's through a "spiritual" experience, you hav realised Jesus? Could you tell me how? Could you explain how the dogma or "story" of Jesus Christ is affirmed by your spirtual experiences?


The thing is, it doesn’t really matter what I say to you regarding my experience, because you will not accept it anyway, or you will find a way to pick holes in it. I have considered writing a thread about it, in order to get it all down in a coherent manner, in order to at least do it some justice, but I am reluctant to do so, because of the type of ridicule I have witnessed in the past on these boards here at ATS.

And another big reason for not stating my experience, is connected to what I strongly believe in, which is that every person must seek God out for themselves, which what Jesus is asking people to do, in many passages throughout the New Testament.

You see, I strongly believe that God is looking for those who are actually willing to seek him out. And that coming to a belief in God through Jesus, is actually a spiritual experience, and it is not just meant to be believed in by faith, but is something that is meant to be experienced.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
There are, and many of them are immmoral and uethical teachings that are founded by the original doctrines passages (which are declaration of what Jesus said, how he told people to live)


Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied:





Originally posted by awake_and_aware
1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)


Well, in the above verse Jesus is using a parable to get across to people, just how powerful a persons faith can be and I don’t think for one minute that it is meant to be taken literally. When it is viewed in that context, I personally don’t see any immoral and unethical teachings connected to it.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)


Again the context of the above verse needs to be taken into account. IMO Jesus is referring to those who are seeking God, and that if they seek long and hard enough they will find him but in order to do so, they need to exercise an element of faith. Again I see no immoral and unethical teachings, when it is viewed in the correct context.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB



My opinion on the above verses, is very different from classical Christian beliefs, so take what I have to say about it, how you wish.

It’s probably best to use an analogy to help explain my point.

Take democracy for example. If you did something in the name of “democracy” you wouldn’t stand around waving flags shouting “democracy”, “democracy”, “democracy” lol. You would instead go around talking to people about equal rights, freedom of speech, policies etc, only then would you be doing something in the name of “democracy”.

It’s the same with doing things in the name of Jesus. It’s not about asking for what you want selfishly, by using Jesus actual “name” (Jesus). Asking for something in Jesus name, is about asking for something in alignment with what Jesus stands for and represents.

Asking for your neighbor to be injured in an accident, for example, and using “Jesus” name to pray for it to happen, would not be in alignment with Jesus, and therefore you would not be praying for it, in Jesus name.

Praying in Jesus name is about asking for things in connection with the fruits of the Spirit and things that are alignment with the way, the truth, and the life. Only by praying in those things will you be doing it in Jesus name.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21


In the above verse Jesus is talking about how believers and unbelievers in him, will be divided against each other, which includes family members who believe in Jesus and ones that do not. Also, it’s a parable to strongly emphasize the divisions between the two groups. Plus I’m pretty sure, that the parable is talking about unbelievers, putting to death believers in Jesus, and not the other way around. Again, I see no immoral and unethical teachings, when it is viewed in the correct context.


Bearing in mind my personal explanations of those verses above, please explain in your next reply, how those verses show immoral and unethical teachings?




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
All i state, is that we've improved the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus, and just because Jesus may have had good meaning, like Ghandi, or Martin Luther King, doesn't make the bible true, and it doesn't mean Jesus was divine, or that his ethical and moral teaching was the best we'll ever had.


I find it ironic that you bring up men like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. It’s well known that Ghandi derived a lot of his ideas from reading the bible, and as for Martin Lurther King, he was an evangelical Christian, whose courage, strength and conviction came mainly from his strongly held religious belief in Jesus.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
And, in lack the lack of evidence that Jesus was divinely commanded, and that his teaching may have been faulty or unethical, why should anyone commit a spiritual relationship with Jesus, and not just love for existence, and our fellow human beings, why pledge allegiance to one (possible) man that existed?


That’s an excellent question, which I do have an answer for, but my answer is not tied into what modern Christianity teaches. You see, for me, Jesus came to teach people about God and to show people what God was like, so that you could believe in him, but not by force, or by pledging allegiance, as you put it, but just by believing through Jesus message.

Of course there is nothing wrong with just living your life and loving people and showing kindness etc… but God just wanted us to get to know him personally, and to let us know that he is there for us when we need him, and that death is not the end and that we are all a part of God.

And to bring this back to the topic of the thread, God, through Jesus was willing to come here to bring us a message, that not only brings us closer to God, but teaches us Gods standard as well, which in turn helps all of mankind. And he did this knowing he would be killed for it, which is the greatest sacrifice anyone can make, and is the reason why Jesus say’s “No greater love hath a man, than to lay down his life his friends.”



Originally posted by awake_and_aware

… It's a constant battle, why be so commited to an old doctrine that has shown to be faulty, and shown to cause so much harm.


That’s just the thing, I’m not committed to the old, or should say, incorrect doctrines of men. I found Jesus, not doctrines lol. Like I said in my last post, I have tried to discern what I believe to be true, based on the historic accounts and early history of Christianity. Of course, I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I know all truths, but I do believe I have found many of them.

But just to reiterate from an earlier point that I made; people have to search for God and the truth, just like Jesus says in many verses in the bible and other texts, and it is kind pointless for me to explain to you, the gospel according to “Joecroft”, because the truth is within you, and it is something that is meant to be spiritually sought after, as hard as that maybe for you to accept or believe.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Just because i'm atheist doesn't mean i can't promote love and soldarity, what has that got to do with Jesus, or a possible theory of the universe (GOD)?


Absolutely, you can promote all of those things, nothing wrong with that. But to answer your question “what has that got to do with Jesus?”, the only answer I can give you, is this; love, kindness and solidarity, are the very things that Jesus stands for and represents, and it’s those very teachings themselves, that have had a direct impact on many courageous and famous people throughout history, some of which you have mentioned already, like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Mother Teresa, to name but a few.



Originally posted by Joecroft
For example, Islam, Judaism and Christianity all believe in the God of the Old Testament, they just happen to believe in the same “God”,but just in different ways.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Oh come on, have you been reading anything i've been writing? I'm about to give up.


This is my third reply to you so far, so don’t give up just yet lol, and this is the first time I have brought up the idea, that Islam, Judaism and Christianity all believe in the God of the Old Testament.

I haven’t read the entire thread, only the OP, and your replies to me. Perhaps you have mentioned something similar to another poster, or maybe I have missed something you wrote, in reply to me, in which case I will look back over your replies. Unless of course you’re referring to another reply to another ATS member, on this thread? If that’s the case, then I haven’t read it.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware

The same God?

Juduism thinks God divinely warrants genital mutilation, one of the verses shows a prayer in which men are commmanded to "thank god they were not made a women" - Pretty sexist right?


Well, first off, I think “genital mutilation” lol is bit of heavy phrase to use.

And secondly, I personally don’t believe that that law came from God. I believe men added that law to the Ten Commandments, just like they added many other laws.

As for the "thank god they were not made a women" part; Jesus actually teaches tolerance for woman, in the Gnostic texts, which btw, are considered heretical by most Christians.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Islam thinks the "kufirs" (non-believers) should not be considered worthy of society, that they should be stoped until Islam is the only relgion (research that passage!)


Not sure about this, but as far as I am aware, the Islamic religion is very tolerant of other religious beliefs, and it is only the “Shariah Laws”, which promote intolerance. Most real Muslims agree, that the “Shariah Laws” are not a part of, or should not make up the Quran, or be representative of Islam.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Christianity believes that one human sacrifice in can absolve an entire species of their "natural" sin. And that we'll be "saved" only if we consider Jesus' words.


This is one of the many theological aspects of Christianity that I disagree with, namely the “atonement doctrine”, as you may have figured out from my first post on this thread.

It is Jesus message, which leads a person to God, and teaches people how to live a better life. IMO Salvation is found through Jesus message and not through his death. The REAL sacrifice, is Gods son coming here, to help mankind out, and bring people closer to God, knowing that he would be killed for doing so. That is the real grace of God.


- JC



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 04:02 AM
link   
reply to post by Joecroft
 



The thing is, it doesn’t really matter what I say to you regarding my experience, because you will not accept it anyway, or you will find a way to pick holes in it. I have considered writing a thread about it, in order to get it all down in a coherent manner, in order to at least do it some justice, but I am reluctant to do so, because of the type of ridicule I have witnessed in the past on these boards here at ATS.


I asked an honest question; maybe if you were up front about your experience, detail it, people would be willing to offer their perspective. It's not ridicule - and it's sceptical enquiry; there's a difference. There are T&Cs in place to stop the trolls.


And another big reason for not stating my experience, is connected to what I strongly believe in, which is that every person must seek God out for themselves, which what Jesus is asking people to do, in many passages throughout the New Testament.


"Seek, and ye shall find"

That's the only way to discover truth, so it's pretty bland preaching in regards to a God theory.

Remember they've set up the answers before doing the seeking. Even if Jesus existed, how would any know whether he was divine? And not just another man like Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Grace Darling, etc.? I've already highlighted that much of Jesus' preaching is faulty and abhorrent.


You see, I strongly believe that God is looking for those who are actually willing to seek him out.


My position is willing. I'm an agnostic atheist; i don't state that God can't be proven, only that there has been insuffiennt evidence (thus far) to warrant belief in such extraordinary claims.

Provide me with evidence, and i'll happily renounce my Atheism. B

If i had a spiritual experience; how would it prove Jesus, or Zeus, or Amen Ra, or Oden, or Yahweh or Allah?

For a spiritual experience to prove a specific doctrine is the accurate and the best, would take a fair ammount of personal conviction, and even then, i could be mistaken.


And that coming to a belief in God through Jesus, is actually a spiritual experience, and it is not just meant to be believed in by faith, but is something that is meant to be experienced.


Again, through a spiritual experience; how would it prove that a creator exists, and that it's the creator depcited in the bible, and that he did infact send his son to die on a cross to save us all? Or that Jesus offers the best preaching, when i've already explained it's faulty?



You see, for me, Jesus came to teach people about God and to show people what God was like


How would he know? Because he's the son of God? He's a member of our species, we would all be the sons and daughters IF IT's TRUE. Just because Jesus said some nice things doesn't mean he knew more about God than anyone else.


I found Jesus, not doctrines lol.


LOL, Well Jesus is founded in a doctrine; and has been plagiarised from many other ancient legend/myth/religions.

And i've already stated his preaching is faulty and we can't prove any of the divine miracles (although granting them still doesn't prove God)


I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I know all truths, but I do believe I have found many of them.


Well you must mean truth as in subjective truth (i.e. the truth to the beuty of a song, or painting) not absolute truth, because you couldn't possibly know the truth of reality, that's scientists are dying to find out.


the gospel according to “Joecroft”, because the truth is within you, and it is something that is meant to be spiritually sought after, as hard as that maybe for you to accept or believe.


Maybe you should start on your own customised religion, and new modern reformation of Christianity like Joseph Smith did (Mormonism) but you could centre your dogma around Jesus, and how finding God is a search, but it's a truth.


the only answer I can give you, is this; love, kindness and solidarity, are the very things that Jesus stands for and represents, and it’s those very teachings themselves, that have had a direct impact on many courageous and famous people throughout history, some of which you have mentioned already, like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Mother Teresa, to name but a few.


Maybe, we'll start a bible up regarding those? And state we need to respect them and mention there names all the time because they stand for love, kindness and solidarity.

My take is that we don't need anyone to attribute those human characterists too, we don't need to offend ourself by saying it comes from on high, or that we need to praise Jesus in order to understand them, especially when i've highlighted his preaching was immoral and abhorrent.


Well, first off, I think “genital mutilation” lol is bit of heavy phrase to use.


It is what it is, the only reason you could hack away at the genitals of another child is if you think it is divinely warranted. No Atheist would submit a child to such abuse, especially when the child is too young to make a choice. Enlighten me if there are any cases.


Not sure about this, but as far as I am aware, the Islamic religion is very tolerant of other religious beliefs, and it is only the “Shariah Laws”, which promote intolerance. Most real Muslims agree, that the “Shariah Laws” are not a part of, or should not make up the Quran, or be representative of Islam.



Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.


If in it the vaguest sense; it's still sinister dogma, that could easily be taken literally, not metaphorically, and Islamic militant groups do, they do quote the Quran before performed martyrdom (suicide bombings)


It is Jesus message, which leads a person to God, and teaches people how to live a better life.


My argument: Jesus "message" is faulty, inaccurate, conflicting. Not all of it. But it should be if we are to praise him for eternity, and his messages:-


Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20


Again with the hellfire and the eternal threats.


Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7


Pretty tolerant? Doesn't seem like he believes in rehabilitation.


Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25


Again; threats here, threats regarding "afterlife" which are unprovable.


The REAL sacrifice, is Gods son coming here, to help mankind out, and bring people closer to God, knowing that he would be killed for doing so. That is the real grace of God.


So you believe God sent Jesus?

Is this because of the immaculate conception, or because a human sacrifice took place that was written about, and religions formed over?

Do you believe GOd intervenes in human affairs? Sends floods? Answers prayers?


- JC


Same initials as him

edit on 5/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 08:26 PM
link   
reply to post by awake_and_aware
 





Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I asked an honest question; maybe if you were up front about your experience, detail it, people would be willing to offer their perspective. It's not ridicule - and it's sceptical enquiry; there's a difference. There are T&Cs in place to stop the trolls.


I asked you an honest question, as well, but I got zero reply. (see A below)

It’s really up to me when and where, I wish to go into detail about my own personal experience, and also, it is not the reason why I came onto this thread.

I have told close friends of mine in real life. They know me very well and they know that I am an extremely down to earth and logically minded individual, who is not prone to flights of fancy. Of course the fact that they know me pretty well, makes it a lot easier for them to except what I have said, even if they don’t believe it. But the key point I am trying to get across to you is that, each person, must seek God out for themselves and have there own individual experience.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
"Seek, and ye shall find"

That's the only way to discover truth, so it's pretty bland preaching in regards to a God theory.


Yes, it’s bland from your current perspective, because you are not currently aware lol of things to do with the Spirit.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Remember they've set up the answers before doing the seeking. Even if Jesus existed, how would any know whether he was divine?
And not just another man like Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Grace Darling, etc.?




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I've already highlighted that much of Jesus' preaching is faulty and abhorrent.


(Point A)
No you haven’t.

I explained in my previous post, in my own words why, when viewed in the correct context, those verses don’t show any signs of immoral and unethical teachings…

And…

I then asked you to explain, why you considered those same verses you brought up, to be of immoral and unethical teachings…

You didn’t answer the question and I’m still waiting for your answer…




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
My position is willing. I'm an agnostic atheist; i don't state that God can't be proven, only that there has been insuffiennt evidence (thus far) to warrant belief in such extraordinary claims.

Provide me with evidence, and i'll happily renounce my Atheism. B


No amount of evidence or proof can make you believe, this is why I have been pointing out to you, that it is an inner spiritual search. The best advice I could give you, is for you to try and suspend all your ideas for why you reject Christianity, (although rightly so, in some places I might add) and then take a long hard look and what Jesus say’s in the gospels.

You see, some of the reasons you have rejected Christianity I actually agree with, and you are right IMO (Hellfire Doctrine for example). But at the same time you are using those reasons as an answer to reject Jesus and God along with it, rather than trying to find a higher truth.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
If i had a spiritual experience; how would it prove Jesus, or Zeus, or Amen Ra, or Oden, or Yahweh or Allah?


IMO There is only one God, and it is man in his error that has given them different names. What makes Christianity unique in my view, is that God did have a son (Jesus), who came down to teach people about God.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
For a spiritual experience to prove a specific doctrine is the accurate and the best, would take a fair ammount of personal conviction, and even then, i could be mistaken.


My specific experience did not prove to me, which doctrines were right, and which ones were wrong etc that aspect of it, has been an ongoing search in itself, but it did prove to me personally, that Jesus and the God that speaks through him, are real.

This is why I am kind of reluctant to tell people that “this is Truth”, or “this is how it should be viewed” etc because I realize that it is down to each individual person to try and search and find Jesus and God for themselves.

All authority comes from the Father God and not from me, this is why I don’t want people to just believe what I say, I would rather that they instead tried to seek out those spiritual truths for themselves.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Again, through a spiritual experience; how would it prove that a creator exists, and that it's the creator depcited in the bible, and that he did infact send his son to die on a cross to save us all? Or that Jesus offers the best preaching, when i've already explained it's faulty?


You haven’t explained how it is faulty, although I did ask you (see Point A above)

Again you have asked a very good question but all I can tell you is, that recognizing that God is speaking through Jesus, is something that can only be spiritually discerned and realized.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
How would he know? Because he's the son of God? He's a member of our species, we would all be the sons and daughters IF IT's TRUE.


Strangely enough, one of the things Jesus was trying to teach us, is that we are all sons and daughters of God.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Just because Jesus said some nice things doesn't mean he knew more about God than anyone else.


Again, to the spiritually un-discerned, Jesus teachings just look like a good teachers advice. But you need to look carefully at many other of the things that Jesus is recorded to have said, and then ask yourself the question; are these just the words of good teacher, or is there something more to it?

Because IMO, some of the things Jesus says, go way beyond what any normal man would say. I mean even if Jesus never existed, and someone just wrote the narrative, it’s still way beyond what any normal man might write.




Originally posted by Joecroft
I found Jesus, not doctrines lol.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
LOL, Well Jesus is founded in a doctrine;


LOL
Yes, and this is what I have been trying to explain to you over these past few posts. Men formulated the doctrines around Jesus life, some of which I agree with and some I do not.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
and has been plagiarised from many other ancient legend/myth/religions.


I think this maybe be partly true, especially where the immaculate conception is concerned, which I personally don’t believe in. But I do believe in the resurrection of Jesus, partly because of the convictions of his disciples and the lengths, with which they went to, in order to preach that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
And i've already stated his preaching is faulty and we can't prove any of the divine miracles (although granting them still doesn't prove God)


Yes, you stated it was faulty etc and then I gave you an explanation as to why I thought they were not and then asked you to explain why you thought they were. (See Point A above)



Originally posted by Joecroft
I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I know all truths, but I do believe I have found many of them.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Well you must mean truth as in subjective truth (i.e. the truth to the beuty of a song, or painting) not absolute truth, because you couldn't possibly know the truth of reality, that's scientists are dying to find out.


You have taken my quote out of context and misunderstood what it meant.

What I was explaining above had nothing to do with scientific proof, of our true reality lol

In its correct context, I was talking about “doctrinal truths”, especially ones which many Christian denominations still debate over today. Those were the truths I was alluding to. That is what I meant when I said, “I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I know all truths.” Of course I do still hold ideas and beliefs about what those doctrinal truths should be, as do many other Christian denominational believers.



Originally posted by Joecroft
the gospel according to “Joecroft”, because the truth is within you, and it is something that is meant to be spiritually sought after, as hard as that maybe for you to accept or believe.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Maybe you should start on your own customised religion, and new modern reformation of Christianity like Joseph Smith did (Mormonism) but you could centre your dogma around Jesus, and how finding God is a search, but it's a truth.


Again you have taken my quote out of context.

You have snipped off my quote at the part where I said “the gospel according to “Joecroft”, which makes it look like I’m in favor of setting up my own religion, which I am not.

When the whole post viewed in it’s completeness and context, it is actually showing that that is the very thing, which I am against.

Here is my full quote below…



Originally posted by Joecroft
But just to reiterate from an earlier point that I made; people have to search for God and the truth, just like Jesus says in many verses in the bible and other texts, and it is kind pointless for me to explain to you, the gospel according to “Joecroft”, because the truth is within you, and it is something that is meant to be spiritually sought after, as hard as that maybe for you to accept or believe.


As you can see I was trying to show that it’s pointless to point out everything that I believe and accept, when I’m stating that it’s up to the individual to find the truth within them.

I can of course offer advice, or show people why I believe something, or what I understand about a specific doctrinal point, but I cannot and will not try to make people believe, which is why I suggested above, that it involves an inner spiritual search, through reading Jesus words.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Maybe, we'll start a bible up regarding those? And state we need to respect them and mention there names all the time because they stand for love, kindness and solidarity.

My take is that we don't need anyone to attribute those human characterists too, we don't need to offend ourself by saying it comes from on high, or that we need to praise Jesus in order to understand them, especially when i've highlighted his preaching was immoral and abhorrent.


Why would you consider it offending ourselves, by saying Jesus message came from God?

Who says you have to praise Jesus, in order to understand those men?

As for highlighting the that preaching was immoral and abhorrent (see Point A above)



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
It is what it is, the only reason you could hack away at the genitals of another child is if you think it is divinely warranted. No Atheist would submit a child to such abuse, especially when the child is too young to make a choice. Enlighten me if there are any cases.


Well, like I said in my last post, in my opinion those laws did not come from God.
Also, some Jewish families actually wait until the male child is older and only then give him the choice of having circumcision, if he wishes.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.


This is what I have been trying to get across to you, men in there ignorance created divisions and added extra laws, which did not come from God.

Remember Islam essentially believes in the God of the Old Testament. God gave the laws of “thou shalt not kill” etc. So why would God then add extra laws, which contradict himself?

IMO, because those laws came from men.

Also it was prophesied that Jesus would come to fulfill the Laws of God, and yet Jesus does not go around telling believers to kill unbelievers. So the question is, why doesn’t he fulfill those laws?

The answer: Those laws never came from God to begin with!



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

Again with the hellfire and the eternal threats.



Again, the Hellfire enternal punishment doctrine is not accepted by all Christian denominations, myself included. It would take to long to explain my take on it here. But there are a number of threads and Christians here on ATS who I’m sure would be happy to discuss that topic with you.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7


An excellent verse to bring up, but there is a different way looking at it and understanding it.

First the Pharisees are asking Jesus “Why do your disciples break the traditions of the elders?”, by not washing their hands before they eat. Now Jesus new that this was not the law of God, which is why he doesn’t honor it.

Then IMO Jesus throws one of their own traditional Laws back at the Pharisees“ (He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7.) etc Almost as a trick question and then he shows them the hypocrisy of it all.

He then goes on to say the following…

Matthew 15:8-9
"'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
“They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

By “but rules taught by men” Jesus is referring to the traditional laws, which did not come from God.

But if you really think about it, why would God create a Law saying “Thou shall not kill” and then another saying “Honor your mother and Father as yourself” etc And then further down the list, on about Law number 37, or whatever it was, saying “ Honor your father and mother’ and Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.” It doesn’t make any sense right?

The point is the (added) Laws are contradictory and Jesus was trying to show the Pharisees their hypocrisy and that their Laws were rules brought in by men.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

Again; threats here, threats regarding "afterlife" which are unprovable.


Here’s the above verse below…

Mark 4:25
“Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more. 25 Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

The verse is quite cryptic but I believe Jesus is talking about the good and bad things that people do to each other. In other words “you will reap what you will sow”




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
So you believe God sent Jesus?


Yes, I do




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Is this because of the immaculate conception, or because a human sacrifice took place that was written about, and religions formed over?


I personally don’t believe in the immaculate conception, and IMO it is not really necessary to believe in it, in order to have faith in Jesus, but if people do, then that’s fine with me. As for Jesus sacrifice part, I have already explained how I see it, in my first post on this thread.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Do you believe GOd intervenes in human affairs? Sends floods? Answers prayers?


Yes, I believe God does and can intervene in people’s lives and answer prayers, but only in a positive way (not floods), and normally when a person is in a position where they are starting to seek and look for greater answers. But on the whole, I would say God largely stays out of our affairs and essentially leaves us with our own free will.




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
- JC
Same initials as him


Incorrect…

Firstly, the word Christ is not Jesus surname, it simply means the “anointed one” or “Messiah”

And

Secondly, Jesus real name was actually “Joshua ben Joseph”


- JC



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


You've written a lot there. But i have just one question before i respond to each point.


Originally posted by awake_and_aware
So you believe God sent Jesus?



Yes, I do


If you saw a man today, who was going to be crucified, and he was a good man, who many people claimed had healed people, and that he had a message to pass on, would you believe God sent him?

What happens if days later, scientists discovered that he hadn't "fully" died on the cross (it appears that he had been "ressurected"?- Would that prove a miracle? Would that prove he was sent by God?



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 05:52 PM
link   
reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


reply to post by Joecroft
 


You've written a lot there. But i have just one question before i respond to each point.


Originally posted by awake_and_aware
So you believe God sent Jesus?



Yes, I do


If you saw a man today, who was going to be crucified, and he was a good man, who many people claimed had healed people, and that he had a message to pass on, would you believe God sent him?

What happens if days later, scientists discovered that he hadn't "fully" died on the cross (it appears that he had been "ressurected"?- Would that prove a miracle? Would that prove he was sent by God?


Incorrect…

Firstly, the word Christ is not Jesus surname, it simply means the “anointed one” or “Messiah”

And

Secondly, Jesus real name was actually “Joshua ben Joseph”


- JC


LOL...
I was joking. There was a guy at my work with a full brown beard, really nice guy, his name was always written on the board as "Chris T" - I always told him how co-incidental and amusing i found it.



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 





Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You've written a lot there.


Yeah sorry about that lol, but I had a lot of questions to get through lol

And I was kind of hoping that after wading through a 100 of your questions, that you would finally get round to answering at least 1 of mine…lol



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
But i have just one question before i respond to each point.


Just 1 more question eh? lol

This kind of reminds of those old Columbo episodes…

Colombo “err… Just one more thing” lol




Originally posted by awake_and_aware
If you saw a man today, who was going to be crucified, and he was a good man, who many people claimed had healed people, and that he had a message to pass on, would you believe God sent him?


Ok that’s 1 more question…

I wouldn’t really know until I found out a bit more about the person, and a lot would depend on his message. Regarding Jesus, everything has to be weighed up in its entirety, which includes, his life, his teachings, and the resurrection accounts recorded by his disciples who preached it.



Originally posted by awake_and_aware
What happens if days later, scientists discovered that he hadn't "fully" died on the cross (it appears that he had been "ressurected"?- Would that prove a miracle? Would that prove he was sent by God?


err that’s 3 more questions making it a total of 4

…so much for “i have just one question” lol


Well, if it was scientifically proven that’s a different matter. But the evidence from the past has to be weighed up individually. The disciples of Jesus put their lives on the line to defend the resurrection doctrine. I mean they could have quite easily have stayed quiet about it, and avoided some heavy persecution, but instead they chose not to. And also, it would take a lot, for every single one of them, to stick to the same story, even to the point of torture and death. Everyone really has to try and weigh up the historical evidence and accounts, in order to form their own opinion on it.

On a side note – and I’m not sure if there’s any point in asking lol but have you ever considered a job as a cross examiner for the prosecution?

The reason I ask, is because those guys don’t have to answer to anything, they just throw out questions all day long.

Could be your ideal job…



- JC



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 09:40 PM
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reply to post by Griffo
 


the answer to your question is yes. God sacrificed his only son. and maybe zombies were written about, but after 70 ad, lots of stuff was destroyed, including the temple. what ever survived maybe locked up in the vatican archives?




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