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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

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posted on May, 11 2011 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
reply to post by Destinyone
 


# it dude, let it out. Venting is good, apparently.

Depends who's doing the venting, Des or TEPCO.

Des, you've earned a good vent, and your venting won't damage any child's health.




posted on May, 11 2011 @ 06:02 PM
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Reply to Destinyone


What is is going to take....tell us TEPCO...what is it going to take, for YOU to stop killing them slowly...Do you even realize the Karmic debt you are all incurring here. How many life times will it take, to balance what you are doing now, in this moment. How many children will it take, I ask you. Are you really even willing, to even consider the answer?


You dont seem to realise that this is the end game. They really dont care now. The 'people' who are managing this drama are not caring beings but ruthless and focused on the destruction which will give them what they want. We all wonder why this drama is unfolding because we cannot see the bigger picture and can only see it from the ground-level perspective of day-to-day human life. Some people say this drama has been going on for centuries, if so, then perhaps we ARE nearing the point when all sides align with their true masters and we move forward into 2012 period with a clearer viewpoint of who 'belongs' to whom. The trick it all is to not get emotional about it but to realise that we are not small 3D humans, but multidimensional beings who still have a caring part to play in the end drama. Like a relative who is dying a slow death with cancer, we can make them comfortable and be attentive to their needs while still monitoring the overall health of the patient.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
reply to post by Destinyone
 


# it dude, let it out. Venting is good, apparently.


TY, yes, venting is healthy. But, not on a forum, dedicated to postulation, deduction, and formation of ideas, based on crumbs of info released to the public. I need to back off. Once this thread becomes the "vent" thread.....it looses it's viability as a scientific thread. But, I Thank You for your input. It makes me feel better, for feeling so much anger over what is happening.
Des
edit on 03/28/2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)


DES!! Don't you leave us!! These, chicken #, "men", of TEPCO et al, don't know what 9 months of waiting to see your unborn child's face. Eating the best food to give them the best chance at life. To labor and push that child in to this world. To have hundreds sleepless nights and breast feed with sore cracked nipples. Only to offer them a life filled with disease that could have been prevented. Des, don't you dare leave us. Mommies like us need each other, for all our babies.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Rakka
Military bases in South Tokyo are telling people that the current radiation reading is "nil". How accurate do we think this is?

Well it depends on the winds. And from what I've seen in the last 3 months, most of the time, the winds only carry the radiation cloud east... but sometimes the wind carries the radiation cloud south... which then hits Tokyo.

So I guess it would depend on the time they take the radiation reading...



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
reply to post by Destinyone
 


Just a thought, but how radioactive would the ground have to be before it got hot enough to turn the ground water to steam, if at all?


Just because a material is radioactive does not mean it's hot, temperature-wise....meaning the amount of radioactivity present in a substance is not necessarily an indication of the amount of heat present, or vice versa. The presence of one is not necessarily dependent upon the other.

Radioactive material can be as cold as ice, room temperature, or hot.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by Rakka
reply to post by Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 


This is a scary thought. Maybe it's because I live in the city... but I've never seen it get foggy like this!


It is not at all uncommon to have rapid incursion and dispersal of fog in coastal areas, as inversion is almost always present on a regular basis.

As for the question of steam production it greatly depends on the air pressure and starting temperature , but generally in the fukushima area right now one would expect no less than 25-30F (above ambient), so if it was radiation making the ground hot enough for steam everyone in the area would be long since dead.

Now Des if you would like someone to be upset at you can figure out whom is responsible for this blog , I cannot seem to find an individuals name any where on it ( which is a bit odd for a blog) and oddly it claims to have been on the web since 2006 , but I find nothing earlier that the month of march this year ( perhaps I AM JUST HAVING A BAD DATA DAY)

here are a couple of quotes to get you started :


Herman Kahn (RAND Corp.): ... I suggest that we should be willing to accept something like 50 to 100 sunshine units in our children ...

Representative Holifield: We have been using the term “strontium unit” rather than “sunshine.” Some of us are allergic to this term “sunshine”. We prefer the term “strontium”. ...

Senator Anderson: I think that term sunshine came because the first time they said if the fallout came down very, very slowly, that was good for you. And then later they said if it came down very fast, that was good for you. We decided to take the sunshine, in view of everything.


See sunshine units ... how can that be bad right?

and (about half way down the page):

The episode proves the safety of nuclear power in the worst case scenario of an 9.0 moment magnitude earthquake followed by a massive tsunami which destroyed backup power for coolant circulation, was safe for the 11 reactors and caused only a minor venting of short-lived volatile nuclides with a maximum radiation level outside the oldest reactor buildings of 8 times background, which rapidly decayed and dispersed. The volatile radioactive fission product gas xenon-135 has a 9.2 hours half life, so under 3% remains after 48 hours or 5.2 half lives, and in addition it is quickly dispersed and diluted to safe levels. The initial maximum dose rate outside the building of 8 times normal background would be down to just 0.2 times background just assuming xenon-135 decay, and neglecting the dispersion effect. This extreme proof test of the safety of nuclear power even under an immense earthquake and tsunami, is one piece of good news to come from the natural devastation scene in Japan. Lucky they didn’t have a wind farm in the devastated area, or the falling turbine blades would have caused a real additional danger, while solar cells would have been swept along as hazardous debris in the tsunami!


ooohhhhh thous dangerous falling blades and their ever so long ( er what about 1/2 second of falling time ) Damocles like 'cut you in half-lifes'

plus solar goes on the ground right where it can wash away right?


After looking over the new xtcbz's photo's a couple of things occur to me:

1) the earlier photos were taken with a fairly expensive camera and are ginormous ( the camera has a 14megapixel capacity , but once inside the plant all the photos are 640x480, and seem down converted. plus there are NO shots of the fubarium falls area or the other poolium spot on the west/south side of #4

Which gives me an odd feeling that these photos are 'official' leaks, but perhaps it is simply that the fellow had to sneak a camera in because I would imagine tepco is NOt allowing any cell phones or photo equipment inside the plant ...time will tell .

although one thing occurs to me watching these latest pool videos ....Tepco has a crane , why the hell aren't they removing the pool rods that they can get to? They have remote controlled trucks and if #4 pool is in such pristine shape they should be plucking those rods out and putting them in those blue casks filled with water for transport to better cooling facilities ....I mean it's a no brainer right?
edit on 11-5-2011 by Silverlok because:
edit on 11-5-2011 by Silverlok because: t and ambient together forever




posted on May, 11 2011 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by Hugues de Payens
 


So thats why their is not thousands of pellet sized holes where they just melted on through,,its sun temp. if they ignite?? they remain cold or even warm but not HOT as in 2500c?

I believe the giant whorl pool was caused by these pelletts at sun temp hitting probably somewhere around that area. ???/



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by Silverlok
 


Think this might be the....

Link to blogger?




And Des...you can take five...we all have to now and then....just come back in 6 and keep digging. You are appreciated and we are thankful you are here. We are with you.
edit on 11-5-2011 by DancedWithWolves because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by Hugues de Payens
 


So thats why their is not thousands of pellet sized holes where they just melted on through,,its sun temp. if they ignite?? they remain cold or even warm but not HOT as in 2500c?

I believe the giant whorl pool was caused by these pelletts at sun temp hitting probably somewhere around that area. ???/


I'll ignore your sarcasm and explain that radioactive contamination is NOT temperature dependent.

I understood the question to be, how much radiation (it should really say radioactivity-there IS a difference)
would need to be in the ground to cause it to be hot enough to cause steam.

I answered his question.
edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: Editorial


ETA: I'll also edit to add that the question did not ask specifically about the radioactive material that may have melted into the ground from the reactors. Any melt down would, of course, be caused by heat generated through a continuous uncontrolled reaction. So, if doused by water, this would cause steam.

However, any radioactive fall out would, no matter how concentrated, have the same temperature as that of the surrounding environment.
edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by Hugues de Payens
 


I'm sorry for any sacasm on my part, i was just getting confirmation on what i thought was the only time plutonium is hot radioactivly was when it was in the 2500c tempt. range or point of sustained combustion.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by BobAthome
 


See the edit to my above post......I guess Bob it really depends on what the question really is. Are we asking about the potential for steam from a core melt or could radioactive fall out cause the ground to be hot enough to cause steam?

The answer is dependent upon the question.



edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: Reworded reply

edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 09:00 PM
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I think we may have the beginnings of an information/reality assault through the media - even those who have done well in reporting are embedding "company lines" and misinformation all of a sudden in their editorials. Manichi Daily News has been a really good source of regular information. They have lacked technical analysis,where the exposing of the true level of deception lies, but have done a good job covering the news of the day and not allowing the main topic of Fukushima in multiple daily stories to diminish.

An editorial today, was in large part, suggesting a departure from "unsafe" nuclear plants centered around the Hamaoka nuke plant near Tokyo and a dangerous fault. It was a relatively tame suggestion that we need to move this debate forward. However, in the midst of this story, I found falsehoods that would specifically relate to propping up the economy of the Fukushima area by denying the seriousness and danger from current and future radiation.

The spin is beginning to be outbound I believe - not just a censor after the fact of what is being written about Fukushima. There is going to be a denial of certain elements of this disaster that will put people in harms way and, indeed, already has.

Some of the paragraphs in question where I am seeing downplaying and cover up words used are:


Nearly 100,000 residents near the tsunami-hit Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant have been evacuated from their hometowns and deprived of their jobs, and are at a loss what to do. Those who are remaining in their neighborhoods around the plant fear possible contamination of the air, water and soil from radiation leaking from the crippled plant.

Agricultural products from Fukushima and fish caught off the prefecture are not selling well because groundless rumors that such products are contaminated with radiation have spread throughout the country. Moreover, the nuclear reactors at the plant are still out of control.

The accident at the Fukushima plant is very different from the Chernobyl nuclear crisis. The Chernobyl accident occurred while nuclear fission was under way but the Fukushima crisis took place after nuclear fission had been stopped.

The Fukushima accident is merely the result of the inability to remove the remaining heat from nuclear fuel. However, this remaining heat has caused such a serious crisis.


The full story is linked above. This is just something to begin watching for in Japan sources and even in the MSM. An adjective here, a misdirection there, can build upon itself. People even now, come to this thread, assuming that surely, things at Fukushima are under control - not as bad as anyone thought - even a testament to man's ability in the face of "cough cough" nature's harshest, is overcoming this disaster with - no long term harm to human health. This is simply not the reality of the situation. Radiation levels have been mis-figured, un-reported, ignored and denied. The EPA is along for the ride in America.

The true nature of the crisis inside the plant is also being seriously downplayed. Most people you would meet on the street - if you asked them what they thought of the Fukushima Nuclear Plant disaster would say, "Ya, that must have been scary, glad they got that under control."

The truth is being twisted, even in an editorial that would seem supportive to "reigning in" nuclear power and it is something to watch for. Thanks all.

edit on 11-5-2011 by DancedWithWolves because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by Hugues de Payens
 


"the only time plutonium is hot radioactivly is when it is at flash point or 2500c" true/false

according too your post the plutonium is radioactive even if its not hot ie 2500c to the touch, but can be cold even and be radioactive as well.

edit on 11-5-2011 by BobAthome because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by BobAthome
 


I cannot speak to individual isotopes, about which, none were asked, and no info offered in my reply.

I can only speak to my experience. I can can tell you that I have been involved in jobs where high levels of radioactive contamination existed, and high levels of anti-contamination controls were in place. The temperatures of the jobs were ambient.

ETA: I have never worked around plutonium, so I do not know it's characteristics. But again, plutonium was not mentioned.
edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by Hugues de Payens
reply to post by BobAthome
 


I cannot speak to individual isotopes, about which, none were asked, and no info offered in my reply.

I can only speak to my experience. I can can tell you that I have been involved in jobs where high levels of radioactive contamination existed, and high levels of anti-contamination controls were in place. The temperatures of the jobs were ambient.

ETA: I have never worked around plutonium, so I do not know it's characteristics. But again, plutonium was not mentioned.
edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: (no reason given)


Thanks for the information to both of you - and others on this thread. The problems they may be having at Fukushima, would involve nuclear debris in addition to contamination since reports have the Unit 3 explosion that supposedly sent nuclear waste substances/rods/fuel/water etc. up to two miles out from the plant. If these "chunks" (highly technical term) of fuel encounter ground water, underground streams, drainage "pits," tropical storm rains, etc., etc., etc., could some masses not still retain enough temperature AND radioactive heat to cause steam? We have steam currently coming out of at least three if not periodically four of the reactors and or spent fuel pools.

What is the danger specifically in what is contained in the steam? Will it remain in the air, fall on the ground, be ingested and become internal radiation more readily because it has become steam? Is steam more dangerous than open air semi melted spent fuel pools at controlled temperatures? That would seem to be at least a part of the question I would have as it relates to the goings on at this site. Thanks in advance to any and all for continuing to answer these questions. Much appreciated.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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Reply to Silverlok

Which gives me an odd feeling that these photos are 'official' leaks, but perhaps it is simply that the fellow had to sneak a camera in because I would imagine tepco is NOt allowing any cell phones or photo equipment inside the plant ...time will tell .
I seem to remember there have been images posted with a worker inside the plant with a mobile phone around his neck on a cord outside his overalls. I dont know when this was taken, and the mobile phone looked like a nokia without camera as well, so they may insist on this type of no-camera phone or even issue them to workers going inside. I would have thought that many Japanese workers would want to get the word out to the world as to how bad the situation really is, but then, I dont understand the Japanese mindset of loyalty to the company in spite of the terrible lack of care for the Japanese people.



posted on May, 11 2011 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by DancedWithWolves
 


So the editorial says this:



The accident at the Fukushima plant is very different from the Chernobyl nuclear crisis. The Chernobyl accident occurred while nuclear fission was under way but the Fukushima crisis took place after nuclear fission had been stopped.


I'm no expert, couldn't tell an isotope from an icicle, but I think this physics professor at Tokyo University disagrees:

Chain Reactions Reignited At Fukushima After Tsunami, Says New Study




Radioactive byproducts indicate that nuclear chain reactions must have been burning at the damaged nuclear reactors long after the disaster unfolded



However, the data from the drain near reactor 2 and from the cooling pond at reactor 4, where spent fuel rods are stored, indicate that the reactions must have been burning much later.

"The data of the water samples from the unit-4 cooling pool and from the sub-drain near the unit-2 reactor show anomaly which may indicate, if they are correct, that some of these fission products were produced by chain nuclear reactions reignited after the earthquake," he says.

These chain reactions must have occurred a significant time after the accident. "It would be difficult to understand the observed anomaly near the unit-2 reactor without assuming that a significant amount of fission products were produced at least 10 - 15 days after X-day," says Matsui.

So things in reactor 2 must have been extremely dangerous right up to the end of March.

Matsui points out that there are some potential question marks about the data. One possibility is that the chemical properties of cesium and iodine might mean they are flushed away from the reactors at different rates, changing their ratios.

But it's hard to see what chemical processes could be responsible for this and even harder to understand why they would occur in some places but not others at Fukushima.

Of course, it won't be possible to determine exactly what went on in reactor 2 and in the spent fuel ponds at reactor 4 until the sites can be physically examined in detail.

But in the meantime, Matsui's analysis gives us one of the best insights so far into the nature of the disaster that unfolded after the tsunami hit.


I guess the editorial writer didn't want - have time - to do much research. Yes DWW the obfuscation may be getting worse.

Technology Review - MIT



edit on 11-5-2011 by Maluhia because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2011 by Maluhia because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 12:13 AM
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I'm not sure what all the confusion is about regarding steam/smoke and the use of the term "hot"...

First off when you're talking about radioactive isotopes in terms of fallout 'nuclear speak', the usage of the word "hot" is simply slang meaning that the isotopes are fully radioactive (ie: they haven't been decaying long enough to be reduced in their radioactive output yet). Another words, the isotopes are 'fresh off of the assembly line'... it has nothing to do with actual temperature. The term "hot off the press" doesn't actually mean the newspaper is burning your fingers from heat.

Now when you're talking about the steam/smoke/smoldering coming out of the actual units themselves, it's because there is still some type of fission process going on somewhere underneath all of the rubble. Thus they're dumping water over these extremely high temp piles of rubble/melted fuel rods/debris/ongoing fission, ending up with steam/smoke/smoldering as a result. But there could also be some flameups happening once in a while because the rubble is drying out and catching again until more water is dumped.

Picture a bonfire in your back yard. At the bottom of the burning wood is a bunch of hot embers. Now you pour water on it to put it out. What happens ? You get steam/smoke/smoldering. But imagine if dumping water on those embers doesn't cool down the temperature, what would happen ? You would continue to get steam/smoke/smoldering every time you dumped more water and even the wood could flame up again until its fully exhausted. In fact, if those embers are hot enough, even the slighest moisture/coolness in the air around it would cause steam.

Also: Hot, damp, cement/rubble/debris is going to continuously steam too.

This is why once an accident happens at a nuclear plant, the immediate emergency is to try to keep the fuel rods and pellets cooled in hopes of keeping the temps at a certain level. Because once it gets above a certain temp, you've lost control of the fission process and it's now running rampant.

Radioactive isotopes are not the same as the fission process itself. The isotopes are the end product of the fission process and have nothing to do with the temperatures coming from fission. The isotopes quickly (almost immediately) take on the same ambient temperature as its surroundings (air/ground/water) once they release from the atom.

Radioactivity does not require heat to be radioactive.

The fact of the matter is TEPCO has no clue what the hell is going on at the bottom of those reactors because they can't get in there to see... the radiation levels are too high. So for now, they're speculating... and of course they're speculating a best case scenario. But evidence of continuous fission product isotopes (xenon, cesium, strontium, tritium, etc) being released into the atmosphere only proves that TEPCO is living in dreamland.

They've got a fission problem going on inside one or more of those units.

Dumping buckets of water on top is an attempt to keep the temps from getting out of that control range until they can figure out what the hell to do next.

Also important to note: You do not need an explosion in order for the fission process to get out of control... just a loss of temperature control. That's why within an hour of the cooling system shutting down, you have the term "criticality" kicking in.

Hope that info helps anyone whose maybe confused with 'nuclear speak'.

Edit: Oh, and yes the steam/smoke coming from the reactors contains radioactive isotopes in it to some degree or other. It has to because it's coming from contaminated sources below.
edit on 12-5-2011 by CranialSponge because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 01:32 AM
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Originally posted by Hugues de Payens
reply to post by BobAthome
 


See the edit to my above post......I guess Bob it really depends on what the question really is. Are we asking about the potential for steam from a core melt or could radioactive fall out cause the ground to be hot enough to cause steam?

The answer is dependent upon the question.



edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: Reworded reply

edit on 11-5-2011 by Hugues de Payens because: (no reason given)


The 2nd one. It was just something I was pondering. Could the contamination of the soil become so great that enough heat is produced to make steam from the ground water, if at all.



posted on May, 12 2011 @ 02:03 AM
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Hi friends,

I'd like to share an item of concern... I'm learning that during decay, certain radio isotopes; (because I'm a nuclear-dummy, and a lazy typist I'm going to refer to these as 'elements') sire "daughter" elements. What this means to me is that as an element decays, daughter elements begin their own decay. (They begin their own half-life decay process('s'). It sounds to me like; it's like a snowball effect. Not so much in the way that it builds-up over time, but that it remains to be a constant instability, providing that only a set amount of nuclear material has been "compromised/released", and the crisis is "over."

I read somewhere that during the decay of Xe-135 (the gas that no one is addressing) sires a daughter element of Cs-135. I'd really appreciate it if someone would correct me on this one in particular! Judging by this; (Xe-133 column was what I was looking for);This took some digging to find- others 404 me

So, now I'm going to research what element daughters which element!!! I'll report back with my findings as time and ability allow...I hope (my ellipses) don't confuse anyone more-so than myself!

I just stumbled upon... unit 4 blogger pic?


A forecast by the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organization shows how weather patterns this week might disperse radiation from a continuous source in Fukushima, Japan.


I have a word doc with alot of links if anyone would like me to post them?







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