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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake

page: 1025.htm
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posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 02:25 AM
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I hope people dont mind me tooting my own horn here. Im getting old and could use the attention. After reading WWs clip of an old theory of mine, I tried to remember when I first came up with it, and where I got it from, and I think it was an original idea. It started early on when I heard the term pressure bolts. I thought 'pressure bolts can be disformed with over pressure'. Simple physics. Then I pictured the reactor doing a big fart, pushing the lid apart for enough time to release the hydrogen in the R3 blast. However, since that time, Ive punched numerous holes through that theory. Yet, as you read the below quote, its the same theory that is now held as the best explanation for the R3 blast by numerous intellegentcia. And I proposed it first I think. But since I no longer think it happened like that, Im not sure how much tooting I should do.

Irrespective, in the post below, the author highlights the fact that the R3 blast did not produce a shockwave. With this I agree in part, and disagree in part. There is a shockwave, but it occurs under ground in the pre blast pulse. And that shockwave ignites hydrogen throughout the Fukushima plant which in turn causes enough pressure underground bouncing off the walls to make the plutonium in the UC go nuclear, and we have the big boom. Thats what the data currently indicates, but that could very easily change with new data.

www.physicsforums.com...



The #3 explosion is more like a hollywood explosion, with mushroom cloud, fireball, and rapidly rising vertical plume, indicating a much higher final temperature, but no shockwave. I have worked on software used in Hollywood for special effects, primarily clouds - it is within my field of expertise. The hollywood style explosion is just a rapid big fire, made by exploding a small charge inside a plastic bag filled with fuel, which immediately combusts in air (no pre mixing followed by combustion). The vertical motion of the plume is caused by buoyancy of the hot plume. The explosion needs not have been directed upwards, and the precisely vertical rising is not indicative of the reactor or drywell etc acting as barrel of a gun.

In the #3 the lack of shockwave indicates that no significant quantity of air/hydrogen mix has detonated; furthermore the high final temperature of gasses is indicative of combustion or a very fuel rich explosion or a release of huge amount of hot steam. I thus believe that explosion of hydrogen that slowly accumulated in the building can be ruled out.

I thus believe that the #3 explosion was a rapid venting of hot steam and hydrogen from the reactor (e.g. pressure could have lifted the drywell cap), followed by combustion of that hydrogen. This would have produced the gasses that are still very hot after their expansion down to atmospheric pressure, and thus would very rapidly rise in a giant plume.




posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 02:30 AM
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reply to post by jadedANDcynical
 


Thank you J&C. I had erased all possibilities of it being Daiichi. Daini smoke, hmmmmmm? Will investigate.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by zworld
I hope people dont mind me tooting my own horn here. Im getting old and could use the attention. After reading WWs clip of an old theory of mine, I tried to remember when I first came up with it, and where I got it from, and I think it was an original idea. It started early on when I heard the term pressure bolts. I thought 'pressure bolts can be disformed with over pressure'. Simple physics. Then I pictured the reactor doing a big fart, pushing the lid apart for enough time to release the hydrogen in the R3 blast. However, since that time, Ive punched numerous holes through that theory. Yet, as you read the below quote, its the same theory that is now held as the best explanation for the R3 blast by numerous intellegentcia. And I proposed it first I think. But since I no longer think it happened like that, Im not sure how much tooting I should do.

Irrespective, in the post below, the author highlights the fact that the R3 blast did not produce a shockwave. With this I agree in part, and disagree in part. There is a shockwave, but it occurs under ground in the pre blast pulse. And that shockwave ignites hydrogen throughout the Fukushima plant which in turn causes enough pressure underground bouncing off the walls to make the plutonium in the UC go nuclear, and we have the big boom. Thats what the data currently indicates, but that could very easily change with new data.

www.physicsforums.com...



The #3 explosion is more like a hollywood explosion, with mushroom cloud, fireball, and rapidly rising vertical plume, indicating a much higher final temperature, but no shockwave. I have worked on software used in Hollywood for special effects, primarily clouds - it is within my field of expertise. The hollywood style explosion is just a rapid big fire, made by exploding a small charge inside a plastic bag filled with fuel, which immediately combusts in air (no pre mixing followed by combustion). The vertical motion of the plume is caused by buoyancy of the hot plume. The explosion needs not have been directed upwards, and the precisely vertical rising is not indicative of the reactor or drywell etc acting as barrel of a gun.

In the #3 the lack of shockwave indicates that no significant quantity of air/hydrogen mix has detonated; furthermore the high final temperature of gasses is indicative of combustion or a very fuel rich explosion or a release of huge amount of hot steam. I thus believe that explosion of hydrogen that slowly accumulated in the building can be ruled out.

I thus believe that the #3 explosion was a rapid venting of hot steam and hydrogen from the reactor (e.g. pressure could have lifted the drywell cap), followed by combustion of that hydrogen. This would have produced the gasses that are still very hot after their expansion down to atmospheric pressure, and thus would very rapidly rise in a giant plume.


We were ahead of the curve again, p490

Originally posted by SFA437

Originally posted by Soulwarrior
reply to post by SFA437
 


I've very much been captivated by your breakdown of the blast at the Fukushima plant and I'd like to toss an idea your way and see if it has any validity. So, for your review...

I think we are all pretty settled on that in the reactor building hydrogen and oxygen existed in sufficient amounts to trigger a blast. Now if for whatever reason that blast was the first in a series would it be possible that the force from it would be capable of at least causing a slight breech of the multiple layers of concrete in the access directly on top of the reactor pressure vessel?

Additionally, after the hydrogen explosion in the reactor buildings over pressurization effect would a negative pressure exist that would allow extreme pressures of hydrogen within a compromised RPV to rapidly expand and then ignite?

I could imagine then it would result in the incredibly directed upward explosion using the RPV and its surrounding concrete tomb as the means of providing it that incredible upward direction.

I put this idea forth to the thread. Maybe those booms that where not explosive in nature are the fracturing of the layers of concrete in the access on top of the reactor core that we've seen in the cutaway diagrams as ignited gasses underneath came tearing out. I'll differ to the SME's on this for sure.

Soul


The MK I GE BWR has a poor flange design. An overpressure could have ripped the bolts out releasing whatever was inside under pressure.

The containment system in general is flawed as well so the rapid pressurization and depressurization could have compromised the secondary containment allowing the corium that had eaten through primary to come into contact with the flooded lower levels and up she goes.

The third scenario is that the booms heard are containment failures which allow the hydrogen to collect within the building with the corium still sitting on the floor. One failure, two failures, three failures and the hot corium comes into contact with the hydrogen touching off the first blast which opens the breach wide and allows a large amount of seawater in. The resultant steam explosion takes the path of least resistance which is straight up through the RPV and blows the lid off like an overheated pressure cooker.

The third scenario fits what I observed on the video a bit better. There's about a 0.6 second delay between primary and secondary explosions but I'm not a nuke guy.

I'll put possibilities out there if I am unsure of something and let the guys who know how these things are screwed together pick the correct one or offer corrections to my observations.



Originally posted by Procharmo

Originally posted by makeitso

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by SFA437

The MK I GE BWR has a poor flange design. An overpressure could have ripped the bolts out releasing whatever was inside under pressure.

Those thuds could have definitely been from bolts popping out of a flange. As a matter of fact, the multiple thuds in succession would seem to lend itself to that theory. As each bolt pops (sending pressure waves through a huge steel vessel that acts like a massive amplifier), it increases stress on the adjacent bolts, causing them to pop, and so on until pressure is sufficiently released.

TheRedneck


I'm thinking the overpressure for this to happen would need to be massive, and on a short timescale, near instantaneous. The reason is because of the rubber O-ring around the drywell flange. It is designed to fail at around 70 psi. If it was a slow buildup, the drywell flange rubber O-ring would fail, releasing the pressure into the refueling cavity.

See: allthingsnuclear.org Possible Cause of Reactor Building Explosions

I'm having difficulty visualizing the amount of overpressure it would take to blow these bolts, let alone the concrete shield plug.





I guess what I am trying to say is that it seems more likely that a massive pressure buildup happened within the reactor, expanding the reactor tank, which broke the biological shielding walls just outside the reactor, (causing the thuds), and then punched a hole straight up thru the center of the reactor head and concrete shield plug like a bullet, rather than blowing the whole lid off.




edit on 4/2/11 by makeitso because: (no reason given)


Your theory is very credible. Most of the close ups show very little of the concrete plugs on 1,3 and 4 remaining above the concrete floor level beneath the rubble.

However some of you here can calculate the clamping force of all those bolts. Add to that the weight of the reactor cap to estimate whether it could have been ejected and or fractured. I'm sure we would have seen it fall to the ground had it been whole..

Maybe it fell though the hole in the turbine building?


Sorry Z, but you are doing an awesome job anyway, you deserve some pats on the back for thinking of it. You probably hadn't read back through the entire thread yet prior to making your post. No worries, it was an original thought, it's just wasn't a new one
Carry on! Carry on!
edit on 18-8-2011 by Wertwog because: added something



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 02:39 AM
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This is from EX-SKF, tireless fighter for truth and justice, (and giver of good financial advice as well
)


1 Millisievert/hour Radiation from a Truck in Iwaki City in Fukushima??
Well, you can't watch the video below any more, as it has become "private" for some reason on Youtube. It was public.

This is the past, present and future folks. download and save, download and save, download and save. The data highway has corporate highwaymen stealing the goods.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 02:41 AM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 


Yes it was April 7th during the 7.4 quake. One of the videos said it was Sendai City. I remember in April we weren't sure where this was taken. No direction for the flash was given.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 02:44 AM
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reply to post by Wertwog
 

Damn. All Things Nuclear. I knew Id read it somewhere. You would remember that. Oh well, Im still a legend in my own mind
.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 02:48 AM
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Originally posted by zworld
reply to post by Wertwog
 

Damn. All Things Nuclear. I knew Id read it somewhere. You would remember that. Oh well, Im still a legend in my own mind
.


Sorry, it's the curse of having a near photographic memory, drives folks batty. I hated to burst your bubble. But if you read the posts there is some really interesting stuff there, and all around p490 I think you'll find some useful info and analysis.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 03:12 AM
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I have never seen #3 look this good. In case you would like to compare. Also a screen cap from 3/12



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 03:43 AM
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www.youtube.com...
For WW The April 7th flash slowed down. Yes it's Sendai, I don't believe this was a transformer. Never did, but what do I know. Onagawa? Daini? or something re-blowing at Daiichi? Who knows? They won't show us current pics of either....But not a transformer in my book.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 06:37 AM
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Tooting your own horn...



Nothing new to post this morning except EVERYONE associated with this thread can "Toot their own horn" including lurkers (but stop lurking!! ) Amazing coverage about so many things...fabulous source of info and conjecture!

Anyhow hope it is a calmer day with no quakes, shakes, or any other traumatizing events!! (and now knock on wood!!)

Appreciate ya'll so VERY much!! Keep up the incredible work!!

- Purple Chive



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by Aircooled
www.youtube.com...
For WW The April 7th flash slowed down. Yes it's Sendai, I don't believe this was a transformer. Never did, but what do I know. Onagawa? Daini? or something re-blowing at Daiichi? Who knows? They won't show us current pics of either....But not a transformer in my book.


Hope you don't mind AC but I embedded the video...very suspicious explosion!!



- Purple Chive



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by Aircooled
www.youtube.com...
I think you will realy like this, gang. We'll need some translation though.


Took the liberty of embedding again AC...fascinating!! And I thought I could ferret out info!! You Rock!




- Purple Chive
edit on 18-8-2011 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by Purplechive

Originally posted by Aircooled
www.youtube.com...
For WW The April 7th flash slowed down. Yes it's Sendai, I don't believe this was a transformer. Never did, but what do I know. Onagawa? Daini? or something re-blowing at Daiichi? Who knows? They won't show us current pics of either....But not a transformer in my book.


Hope you don't mind AC but I embedded the video...very suspicious explosion!!



- Purple Chive


Just my opinion, but this looks like a MAJOR arcing of VERY high voltage which most likely resulted in the explosion of a very large transformer. Light is pretty consistent with that theory. Notice it's extremely bright white/blue?



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by matadoor
 


There was a Conformation about this Story,
it was a Transformer!



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 09:58 AM
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Weird Arse Fog/Steaming going on again...





Those cracks acting up again? More deliberate boiling off of water?

On Edit: Others noticing something going on too...



- Purple Chive
edit on 18-8-2011 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 10:11 AM
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Hartmann - Fukushima...is this the China Syndrome?





Just like at Chernobyl...don't want it to hit water..."separate out the elements of water...create hydrogen..."

- Purple Chive
edit on 18-8-2011 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 10:36 AM
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Notice Plummet of Safety Relief Valve 2-71D



www.tepco.co.jp...

Curious...

- Purple Chive



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by Wertwog

Originally posted by zworld
reply to post by Wertwog
 

Damn. All Things Nuclear. I knew Id read it somewhere. You would remember that. Oh well, Im still a legend in my own mind
.


Sorry, it's the curse of having a near photographic memory, drives folks batty. I hated to burst your bubble. But if you read the posts there is some really interesting stuff there, and all around p490 I think you'll find some useful info and analysis.


Youre a sharpie WW, thats for sure. I have the exact opposite condition. I one time worked the same case twice, a very twisted and convoluted case at that. And I came to the exact same conclusion without remembering that I had already cracked the case 3 years previous. I didn't get the picture until I came across a letter I had written and submitted to the public record, explaining the case to the legal team I was working with. The lead attorney just shook their head when they realized what I had done.

And yes, even though Ive been saying it for awhile, today Im going back over old ATS posts. Ive skimmed them but with my memory thats like nothing. Thank you for the heads up to the 490 area.

And just like never saying that Im 99.99% sure about something, no more tooting my own horn. Its out of key anyway.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by Purplechive

Tooting your own horn...



Nothing new to post this morning except EVERYONE associated with this thread can "Toot their own horn" including lurkers (but stop lurking!! ) Amazing coverage about so many things...fabulous source of info and conjecture!

Anyhow hope it is a calmer day with no quakes, shakes, or any other traumatizing events!! (and now knock on wood!!)

Appreciate ya'll so VERY much!! Keep up the incredible work!!

- Purple Chive





What PC said.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by Purplechive
 

PC, in your Tepco travels, if you see the latest readings for water levels in either the trenches or basements, EX-SKF hasnt updated them since 7/27, and Im very curious to know the levels. Of course, since they became and item of discussion here and at EX-SKF, Tepco has probably decided to make the new readings available in sanskrit only.




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