Wis. GOP bypasses Dems, cuts collective bargaining

reply to post by wingsfan


You jest, but people seriously believe that. People vote thinking "If I was rich I wouldn't want such and such to happen to me" , but they don't realize that they won't ever be rich, especially if they keep voting Republican. They are being sold an American dream that sadly doesn't exist.

reply to post by David9176


It hurts so much to see what we are becoming right now as a nation, we see it, many like us see it, but we are just the minority when the rest of the citizens in this nations lies oblivious and blind.

So for the poster that ask if people are stupid, I say yes we are. . .

reply to post by David9176


You're mixing two different issues. The issue in Wisconsin is about Public Employee Unions. By definition, public employee union employees are paid for by the tax payer. They still have collective bargaining rights with respect to compensation and benefits. They have been stripped of their power to collectively bargin for work rules. The work rule business which was put in place to protect folks like coal miners and steel workers are critical and everything should be done to keep those as strong as possible. Work rule contract items with respect to public employees are things like how many feet need to be close to the copy machine, the size and location of bulletin boards and other nonsense.

Are their jobs at stake? Absolutely. When you have collective bargaining with a public union, local/state governments are prevented from taking actions to make their governments more efficient. For example, each state likely has a couple of dozen different groups that do fullfillment, print and web. All of them are staffed by members of the same union. Now the governor wants to come in and consolidate fullfillment into a single center and modernize the technology and he can't because of collective bargaining. The governor decides accurately that printing documents is not a core competency of the government and decides to outsource that function - outsource, not off-shore and give the work to a shop like IBM and he can't because of collective bargaining.

With respect to the bonuses of CEOs, why do you care? CEOs are the head of a private entity. Unless you hold the stock of that corporation you are not impacted by CEO compensation. Now you might not think it is OK for a CEO to get $20M/year, but again thats a different story and immaterial to the discussion of what is becomming a trend in this country regarding public employee unions.

reply to post by dolphinfan


No you're confusing the issues. According to Walker this was entirely a fiscal issue.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by David9176

 

It hurts so much to see what we are becoming right now as a nation, we see it, many like us see it, but we are just the minority when the rest of the citizens in this nations lies oblivious and blind.

So for the poster that ask if people are stupid, I say yes we are. . .

YES! We are.

Some people just like to follow the "carrot" - - and don't even know why.

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by David9176

 

And the people are too stupid and willing to go along with the anti-union propaganda.

This is why this country is going down the proverbial toilet.

If Americans would wake up for once and realize that they're being lied to by corporate drones, then perhaps these workers would not have lost their bargaining rights!

Yes, we must bow to our masters and support their agenda by willing committing economic seppuku!

Sword, you are damned on the money! Right dead on.

Originally posted by Throwback
reply to post by dolphinfan

 

No you're confusing the issues. According to Walker this was entirely a fiscal issue.

Walker is a liar.

reply to post by Throwback


No I'm not. It is a fiscal issue. He wants to reform government. He wants to eliminate waste and entire functions from the government. He wants to redefine what the purpose of government is and get the government back to its core functions. He can't do that with collective bargaining.

I'll give you an example. He wants to get the state out of the business of running data centers. The state runs dozens of data centers and in no way is that activity a core competency of the government. He sees an opportunity to turn the entire function over to a private firm, with contract stipulations that the employees will be transferred to the private firm, which is a non-union shop and given job security for a period, say three years. OK, there are a couple of hundred data center workers that are impacted, but a host of other state workers are members of the same union and they can prevent him from taking that action by threatening a walk-out. He needs to eliminate the collective bargaining to cut the size and cost of the government.

reply to post by marg6043

t hurts so much to see what we are becoming right now as a nation, we see it, many like us see it, but we are just the minority when the rest of the citizens in this nations lies oblivious and blind. So for the poster that ask if people are stupid, I say yes we are. . .

I agree. We are brainwashed fools. We are eating our own and too many don't see it. It looks like we are going to have to lose it all before we see the forest for the trees.

This was just one small battle compared to what is coming. It's not going to be only unions under attack...it's head start, single mothers, college students, the list goes on.

Many of these people most likely consider themselves conservatives or support what is happening in Wisconsin. Well I hope they are ready...because what they are supporting will soon be knocking at their door and they aren't going to be happy about it....

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by David9176

 

Probably Koch Industries.

If you people are so concerned about this nation, then stand up and fight for your rights instead of bowing to corporate talking heads, what with their claims that we "must tighten our belt" and so forth so they can expand their belts!

There is wisdom in your words, even if it isn't Koch.....

In a world of finite resources, us doing with less means SOMEONE gets to have more.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
reply to post by Throwback

 

No I'm not. It is a fiscal issue. He wants to reform government. He wants to eliminate waste and entire functions from the government. He wants to redefine what the purpose of government is and get the government back to its core functions. He can't do that with collective bargaining.

Ok, so if this is a fiscal issue, then why was a non-fiscal bill just passed?

Originally posted by dolphinfan
reply to post by Throwback

 

I'll give you an example. He wants to get the state out of the business of running data centers. The state runs dozens of data centers and in no way is that activity a core competency of the government. He sees an opportunity to turn the entire function over to a private firm, with contract stipulations that the employees will be transferred to the private firm, which is a non-union shop and given job security for a period, say three years. OK, there are a couple of hundred data center workers that are impacted, but a host of other state workers are members of the same union and they can prevent him from taking that action by threatening a walk-out. He needs to eliminate the collective bargaining to cut the size and cost of the government.

That is essentially collective bargaining...The employee is offered a contract with certain stipulations which he or she can then accept or deny. Only in your example the negotiations would be pretty much one-sided.

How will taking away collective bargaining rights away help a budget? You say because it prevents walk outs? That's the best reason they need to be taken away? Collective bargaining didn't raise the deficit so eliminating it won't eliminate the deficit.

reply to post by EssenceOfSilence


You have made exceeding relevant points there...

It is true that by the very nature of unions, they suffer the same pitfalls of corruption as our public servants do. Funny that; one set of corrupt buttheads fighting another group of equally vainglorious elites....

However, in their purely democratic form, unions do have the ability to reassemble themselves... that is if the government says its OK.... shhh.

Perhaps you are correct and it is time to restore the nature of civil service to its original form. On that point I cannot say one way or another for a state not my own. To paraphrase another who wisely added, if it is the will of the people of Wisconsin, then so be it.

But in the end, we must not overlook the real tragedy; these decisions were not 'of' 'by' or 'for' the people.... it was about business and an unsustainable model.

reply to post by Maxmars


Maxmars, you do us a disservice. Your observations need to come at the start of a topic not the end. Succinct is a pale word for your statements. So far, I've found every one of them dead on the money.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Why aren't data centers a core government function?

Pretty bold of you to assert something so obviously false.

Data collection and collation pertaining to the citizenry for the purposes of determining public policy should be strictly in the hands of government. Under absolutely no circumstances should such information be privatized, since about two hours after it is it will be abused, sold and compromised. I trust private business to handle the data the same way they always do: they will share it with their subsidiaries and business partners, carefully giving each a different data subset to provide the cover of supposed anonymity, but when combined rebuilds the original database which can then be exploited in dozens of ways.

Republicans always try to run government like a private business with themselves as the sole shareholders.

These Wisconsin Republicans are sociopathic criminals.

reply to post by Throwback


He passed the non-fiscal measure so that now the fiscal measure, stripped of the collective bargaining provision will be voted on. Now they are just voting on a budget.

The example of the data centers is a case in point. Given the opportunity to make the state more efficient, cut costs, remove pension and medical obligations from the budget - in other words do what a private firm would do to improve its fiscal position, would'nt you want the government to do that?

I'm sort of enjoying this show. The GOP is destroying itself again, as if they never took that break from their suicidal process in 2006. They just picked up where they left off and are moving to finish the job. Unbelievable.

This time they won't have the Tea Party to fake people out with, since that idiotic ruse took off and started eating their preferred "corporate" candidates in the primaries. It's pretty exciting to watch the death of a political party as established as the GOP. It's not a common thing to get to witness. I actually thought that the national party leadership would get a handle on things once their candidates swept the polls in November, but it's been a free-for-all ever since. Hell, they can't even get a serious (or nonserious) presidential candidate to announce, and that's pretty telling. It's like there are several ideological drives going on that have nothing to do with each other, and are even conflicting with each other. And they're all really frantic. It's a mess.

I will say that I didn't expect the new GOP governors to choke coming right out of the gate. It's like there's a virus that's gotten spread around and they're all losing their marbles at once. Used to be they'd wait until they got used to the chair behind the desk before they started destroying their careers. I don't see this bizarre behavior allowing the GOP to survive as a viable party if it keeps up. The middle of the political spectrum won't suppport that sort of crap, and will eliminate it in 2012.

reply to post by dolphinfan


By what magic does privatization accomplish all that?

Most private companies are very sloppily run...their "efficiency" has always been illusory. Throughout my lifetime, privatization never does what it claims...it merely diverts public money into private profit while reducing quality and competence. Privatization nearly always begins and ends in corruption.

+Strip bill of all financial appropriations in order to pass it without Democrats (breaking a promise to voters to not pass anything without Democrats present, might I add)
+Keep only the collective bargaining piece
+Pass the bill

Walker's comment:
"In order to move the state forward, I applaud the legislature's action today to stand up to the status quo and take a step in the right direction to balance the budget and reform government."

What the hell are these people smoking...

Originally posted by Oberlin
+Strip bill of all financial appropriations in order to pass it without Democrats (breaking a promise to voters to not pass anything without Democrats present, might I add)
+Keep only the collective bargaining piece
+Pass the bill

Walker's comment:
"In order to move the state forward, I applaud the legislature's action today to stand up to the status quo and take a step in the right direction to balance the budget and reform government."

What the hell are these people smoking...

That's what is so crazy about it. It's like he doesn't even care anymore if people know he lied about it being about balancing the budget. He just proved that it had nothing to do with the budget and everything to do with taking away rights. I'm baffled about the desperation he displayed. It's alarming that he went to such lengths over something like this.

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by EssenceOfSilence

 

You have made exceeding relevant points there...

It is true that by the very nature of unions, they suffer the same pitfalls of corruption as our public servants do. Funny that; one set of corrupt buttheads fighting another group of equally vainglorious elites....

However, in their purely democratic form, unions do have the ability to reassemble themselves... that is if the government says its OK.... shhh.

Perhaps you are correct and it is time to restore the nature of civil service to its original form. On that point I cannot say one way or another for a state not my own. To paraphrase another who wisely added, if it is the will of the people of Wisconsin, then so be it.

But in the end, we must not overlook the real tragedy; these decisions were not 'of' 'by' or 'for' the people.... it was about business and an unsustainable model.

Thanks for your reply.

The thieves have been stopped for now and only time will tell if it was worth the cost.