Lack of feminine characteristics...

Originally posted by soficrow
I have NO DOUBT that TPTB hijacked, appropriated and subverted the women's movement.

Oh - would you say they are Opportunists?

No one "created" the women's independence movement. It is a progression movement just like anything else.

Nothing stands still.

In the end the important thing is to be happy and with any luck the woman (or man for that matter) will be able to make her partner happy as well.
We do live in competitive times, where the emphasis is less on co-operation and more on beating other people. Just as men are, women are products of this competitive society.
People are generally judged by their career success and not usually by a happy family life.

Don't doubt yourself. You are correct I'm your assesment. Its a little sickening to me honestly. I don't know why females think thousands of years of evolution is going to change in a span of 100 years. Embrace your femininity and don't put on this aggresive nature. Its not who you are. The key is being assertive. But some females are so agfressive they ignore what attracts a man to them. Be proud to be a soft nuturing sensitive supportive female.

Ahh I hate mobile posting. I lose my train of thought and I start to ramble


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And I'm for equal treamtment. I'm arguing the lack of femininity in females.




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reply to post by soficrow


It is so sad that the things we think of as modern women rights, are rights that women held, 1,000 years ago.. while respect women are demanding now was given freely 1,000 years ago.. it is really sad..

I don't usualy get into these topics, but however people spin it, Women where seen as equals, where deeply respected, so it is no wonder the Saxons where the first to raise women to sainthood.

Equality did not make Saxon women less femine, nor did it make Saxon men weaklings.. what an obsurd notion.

Alfred the Great is venerated as a Christian Hero for his defence of the realm, no can call him feminised, while his daughter Æthelflæd who became the "Lady of the Mercians" on her husbands death, was a fine diplomat and an excellent miltary strategist leading many sucessful miltary campaigns..

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by soficrow
I have NO DOUBT that TPTB hijacked, appropriated and subverted the women's movement.

Oh - would you say they are Opportunists?

No one "created" the women's independence movement. It is a progression movement just like anything else.

Nothing stands still.

The feminist movement is brought to you by the Rockefeller foundation and the CIA.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Very interesting and almost certainly true.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by irsuccubus
Aaron Russo was an incredible man and I agree with everything he said, which is why I do not subscribe to any "movement". Women need to take the place that they have already had for centuries and not think that they need permission, legislation or spokespeople to do so.

Oh Please!!!! Did you live it? Well I did.

Again - - a man - - deciding the "real" reason women want to be an independent person.

What a joke.

Congratulations on being around a while. This kind of cattiness is why men hate feminists, lmao. Did you watch the video? I have...and not just that segment so I know full well the context of his statements. This is the same man who made From Freedom to Fascism. Pull that head outta your tush and take a breath. No one (not me anyway) is trying to invalidate women's struggles. In fact...if you check my previous posts rather than cherry picking...you will see where I stand. The fact is...as stated previously...the plight of middle class white women in the second half of the 20th century was lost on me seeing as how black women had been working outside of the home and acting as heads of household long before Susie Homemaker decided to take it to the streets. Late much? And said movement was not exactly looking to include black women during its inception. Hell...even the civil rights movement was rife with sexism and the idea that women should just make the posters and let the men be the freedom fighters. I come from a line of strong women who did grow up during those uncertain times. So trust....this is not an issue foreign to one such as I. lol...where the heck did you come from? Your righteous indignation is misplaced

Really enjoyed all the different perspectives here, I read all the 'historical' links and quotes and I liked reading about people's personal experiences too. Esp. "Apache Man's" - quite interesting and a glimpse into another life - thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I think these are the things that make us consider all the angles. Everyone has different experiences too, but these do provide much food for thought.

I hesitate to speak much about myself as I am just - I don't know - not "super weird" or coming from any political angle - I am just kind of a 'geek' type person. (Studied science in school; MS, Physics.)

There is some weirdness before this though - even though - in my youth - I would've been assessed as the typical semi wealthy Yuppy Princess. JAPPY. JAP = Jewish American Princess.

Stray fact - did you know? Beside the Italian Mafia, there is a Jewish Mafia? And they often work together?

Of course, my relatives were "business people". Cough.

Anyway, I got to thinking about "cultures" and "female traits" and I was thinking about these Italian friends of mine, school chums, etc.

My one friend - she had an entire wing of the house - they had a very nice estate - they still spent all their time SCREAMING at each other! The whole family. You live in a big enough home - er - get *away* from one another? Maybe? I know alot of Italians, they seem to like to scream to communicate. Sure they look nice at the country club - but at home - yeah this friend's Mom - Dad came home - it wasn't "Hello Darling Husband" - it was GET YOUR GODDAMNED SHOES OFF THE RUG!!!! I KILL YOU!!!! JESUS MARY AND JOSEPH!!!! LOL. Yeah this guy was in the Outfit, he cowered in abject FEAR of Mama

Maybe that was some "Old World" early version of "Women's Lib" ?

reply to post by irsuccubus


I actually appreciate your response.

The women in my family have always worked. My family has a serious independent streak.

My great grandmother was a head nurse when Lincoln was campaigning. I have the photo he gave her when he visited her hospital. Too bad she didn't think to have him sign it.

Its not just me or other groups who have fought the fight - - - that get annoyed at the next generation who takes it for granted.

I watch my 10 year old granddaughter who has the whole world in front of her to do/be anything she wants. So that does make me smile.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I personally don't feel oppression of any sort is natural or okay. My suggestion of watching the video (that I had posted earlier as well in response to someone else) was to bring up the fact that the feminist movement was essentially hijacked and consequently a real healthy movement that embraces and values what it means to be a woman while giving women more freedom did not occur. And embracing "what it means to be a woman", in my opinion is all the God given abilities and traits that are inarguably inherent in the female species.

Something is wrong when women begin to see rearing a child as a burden rather than a blessing. Something is wrong when women are overly obsessed with covering their faces in paint, dying their hair, and implanting boobs to be accepted by a man, who in turn is attracted based upon the outside rather than the inside. Something is wrong when women go looking for a provider, NOT to provide for a family of whom she is taking responsibility for as well, but a provider to fulfill all her superficial desires. What does she give the man in return? Sex. Way to honor yourself. Something's wrong when women selectively have cesarian sections (regardless of the consequences to the baby) so that their vagina stays "beautiful".

I don't see very many feminist or liberated women around. I see a lot of angry, twisted, insecure, self centered, money grubbing women ignoring their children, while feeding them McDonald's because cooking is for the oppressed.

reply to post by Whiffer Nippets


The notion that traditional women, the wives of the pre-feminist era, were silent cowering perpetually pregnant barefoot rape victims is a complete myth.

In fact, it could be argued that the opposite was true. That a woman could be as bold, violent, vindictive and conniving as she wanted to be, knowing full well that the man could never leave. THe classic image of the woman hitting her man in the head with a frying pan springs to mind. And society today thinks that's funny. Can you imagine what society would say though, about a man who hit a woman in the head with a frying pan?

Originally posted by kalamatas


Something is wrong when women begin to see rearing a child as a burden rather than a blessing.

Natural selection did not have to design women to want children. All it had to do was to design us to want sex, and then, when a child was present, to feel compelled to ensure it did not die. Some women do have a strong desire for babies, but, not everyone does. The culture is responsible for part of the programming that you will be unfulfilled if you do not have children, its not all biological. Nature actually designed females to want few children and to invest heavily in them, and this is what we see play out everywhere in the world women have the freedom to choose. Birthrates drop to around 2 children per female if they have birthcontrol and the right and education to use it. By choice.

Males on the other hand, have a different breeding strategy. They want lots of babies, and to do as little as possible to rear them. Obviously there is variation in this, with some women wanting lots of babies, and some men taking wonderful care of them, but.........its basically how it averages out.

You may not believe in natural selection, in which case the whole line of reasoning is moot. Some of you may be too young, and may have been raised in such an urban environment that you are totally unaware that in the past women did not spend all day for days on end as the sole caretaker for their children.

You have heard the "it takes a village," well it kinda did. Older children or the mother of the childrens younger unmarried sisters were given a lot of the minute by minute "mothering" jobs. The mother herself actually worked, in many cases, even hundreds of years ago, washing clothes for other people, cleaning for the wealthy, on the farm or in the family garden, prostituting, selling other goods and services, whatever. Just regular housework was much more labor intensive and took a lot of time away from babying children.

Also, another thing people just dont realize is, that children died. A lot. No, really. A lot. People just didnt get as attached to them as we do. And if you ever want to have a real eye opening experience, do a little research about street children, or orphanages, and the other toss away children. They were sold, abandoned, given into virtual slave labor in factories or apprenticeships. You really have no idea how much better modern women treat their children than women did in the past. And its all a matter of record. Look it up. Dont take my word for it.

The 1950's ideal of a stay at home mom totally devoted to cooking and cleaning one house and adoring her children is by and large a fiction. There were some people who did live this way, but it has never been the majority in our culture.

Originally posted by kalamatas
Something is wrong when women are overly obsessed with covering their faces in paint, dying their hair, and implanting boobs to be accepted by a man, who in turn is attracted based upon the outside rather than the inside.

See my earlier post on how the brain averages images. Women are affected by this too, and become obsessed with trying to look good. Its a shame. But it really has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with the media and advertising.

Originally posted by kalamatas
I don't see very many feminist or liberated women around.

Dont look for them. Just look at women. And take a good honest, historical look at how people lived in the past. Women get a lot of bad press, but compared to how children were treated even 100 years ago, kids today have it totally made.

Edit to add,

And I will watch the video. I didnt want to consider it in the context of the argument I was having at the time, but I will watch it just for GP.

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by irsuccubus

 

I actually appreciate your response.

The women in my family have always worked. My family has a serious independent streak.

My great grandmother was a head nurse when Lincoln was campaigning. I have the photo he gave her when he visited her hospital. Too bad she didn't think to have him sign it.

Its not just me or other groups who have fought the fight - - - that get annoyed at the next generation who takes it for granted.

I watch my 10 year old granddaughter who has the whole world in front of her to do/be anything she wants. So that does make me smile.

Believe me...I understand. I have 3 daughters, one of whom is on the cusp of adolesence. Every day I get to see the world through her eyes and the world seems to be getting rather unfriendly toward women these days. Many people talk about the behavior of women in this country without examining the root causes. Almost from birth the women in this country are taught to do two things...breed and compete with other women. Its why baby dolls are still big sellers and why makeup and accessories are being made available younger and younger. Not even old favorites from childhood like Rainbow Brite and Strawberry Shortcake...and in my Daughters case...Dora..are alowed to retain their tomboyish qualities. They have been "feminized" to reflect the prevailing imagery that comes to mind when we think about modern girls. Primping, prettiness and pretension. Its not that american women are these vain, self absorbed, clothes horses that men and people around the world think we are. Its that a corporate driven agenda has hijacked what it means to be a woman and essentially you have a generation of women who have grown up to believe the hype. A child has become an accessory because there are a million different hip and "fashionable" ways to dress em up, dress yourself up, push em around, coordinate their bedroom furniture and other such nonsense that fools women into thinking they NEED to have in order to be good mother.

And then there is beauty. Gone is the basic rule of "wash your face 2 times a day and stay out of the sun" and in its place is SEPHORA...the makeup superstore. Marc Jacobs and Jimmy Choo and several other queens who wanna make impossible and overpriced shoes. As I said before....girly trappings disguised as feminism. Women being in the work place is what helped to usher in the economic boom for these industries because they knew that many of us.....are suckers. words like SALE and TRENDY jump out at these chicks. We see commercials of women stepping over eachother for bargains and reality shows of morally bankrupt harpys and we internalize it, thinking that this is what it is to be a modern women. WRONG. The so called modern woman is more of a slave to the whims of men than the ones of yesterday because they operate under the illusion of empowerment.

My philosophy...be useful. Simple as that. Be effective and be useful and choose a life other than that of being an ornament. If that means being a mom...do it. If that means driving 18 wheelers...go for it! Women need to approach life as you would a banquet and not allow themselves to get put in a place where they cannot continue to grow as the wonderful creatures they are.

And men....men are amazing creatures that are full of fascination for me and many women, which is why they do so much to get their hands on one. No one should be dominating anyone unless theres latex involved and thats your kink. We all need eachother. That being said...RESPECT MA AUTHORITAH!!

reply to post by irsuccubus


Good post.

I think a lot of people would be AMAZED at how much better society would become, in short order, if we would give up TV.

Advertising is designed to make you consume, to make you dissatisfied with what you have, and to make you want more. TV sells unhappiness. It not only drives the beauty industry, it drives ALL industries. Car, computer, new hand held electronic thingies that I obviously dont own, lol.

But remember that. Television is designed to make you unhappy. Thats its purpose. Because your unhappiness will make you behave in ways that benefit the corporations and the politicians they own.

If instead of bickering with one another, we just pulled the plug, you would see happier people and families in no time at all.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I think thats part of the problem. Some of the women haters just dont realize what women find "manly." They mistake "being a jerk" with "being dominant."

I think men who dont need to tear down women or try to make them subordinate are VERY appealing. It shows they are secure. Its confidence. Its generosity, a willingness to share power.

''Manliness'' is certainly impossible to define, and it is learnt and appreciated on an experiential basis.

For example, in my post, I mocked the ''sensitive act'' that some men have displayed on this thread. Yet sensitivity, when used sparingly and genuinely, is one of the most manly traits.

In fact, many of the traditional feminine traits - those of intense emotion - are extremely manly when accurately and truthfully applied by men.


You see, I've been unfairly accused of being a ''woman hater'' and a ''misogynist'' before on ATS, just because I'm very vocal on gender issues, and also because I have nothing but contempt for the feminist ideology/movement.

If someone were to thoughtfully read between the lines of my posts, then they would see that I'm actually very supportive and appreciative of women... Just not how fugly feminazis want to force other women to behave and act in modern society.


What you say about ''dominance'' is true; women are attracted to men who can exert social dominance over others. This doesn't necessarily include dominating her !

The dominating 'men' who slap their wife/girlfriend around, or who want to control her actions and movements, are pathetic cowards.

They are as far away from being a 'real man' as physically possible !

reply to post by Xiamara


Your avatar looks more feminine than you advocate in your post.. well to me anyway.

When it comes to men... I mean males, there are all types, but softer feminine males are not men, not leaders and not fathers of real men. But they can still do what they want and I've no probelm with them getting their nails done or a facial because we aren't all fishermen now but there is a type of male who wouldn't get his fingernails dirty and couldn't use a spanner or fix nail in the wall. They are weak wishy washy males who give you limpwristed handshakes more akin to the other type that wish they were women, yet aren't.

No wonder the kids we see growing up are twisted and bitter.

Originally posted by kalamatas
What's a manly man??? An unemotional, detached, a-hole?

I like my men rugged and strong, but NOT emotionally inept.

As mentioned in my previous post, a genuine show of emotion at the right time is an extremely manly trait.

It's these ''men'' who use this constant fake sensitivity as their default position who are the primary targets of my ridicule.

''Man up'', I think the phrase is.

reply to post by Yeah-Alright


Lack of feminine characteristics... Not if you look towards the "new age" males - and this is coming from a male.
I have noticed for a while now what appears to be what I would describe as a lack of testostrone in younger generation males. Not only are they physically smaller, they are less powerful, agressive, dominant, arrogant and insensitive... I know people think some of these traits are bad and in some cicumstances I agree, but they are also what has helped man kind through the rough times. I feel a role reversal between sexes is definitely happening.

reply to post by byteshertz

I disagree with this statement to a certain extent. All those traits are still entirely present in my generation. I think the big draw though is the more intelligent men seem to becoming more docile and, for lack of a better term, weaker. I believe this is mostly due to the fact that society, especially in the early stages of social development, shuns intelligence. This creates the 20 year old genius basement dweller stereotype because they have not been allowed to flourish in the way that they should have.