The Search For Life. Part 2 – Are they here?..

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/82c4d5120448.jpg[/atsimg]

The Search for life, part 2.

Admittedly, I wasn't too sure about writing up this thread at all. Reason being previously, I made a thread (part 1) discussing my thoughts and opinions on the topic of Alien Life. One which was focused primarily on the topic of such a thing occurring and then perhaps influencing Humans throughout Earth's History (as opposed to modern day to the future), citing art, certain structures and scriptures which mentioned or hinted at such a thing as examples. Presenting my thoughts on AAT (Ancient Astronaut Theory) in other words.

But I didn't really receive as much attention In terms of replies as I would have hoped. This topic being such a fascinating one for me personally – enough to make a thread about anyway, I really would've enjoyed more of a discussion to have occurred to be perfectly honest.

But, I decided to just go ahead with this thread anyway as I found that at least some seemed to find It a nice read. And If more of a discussion isn't achieved this time around, at least I can be comfortable knowing that at least some will find this one interesting and/or enlightening in a sense also.. well, hopefully.

Anyway, this thread is primarily focused on the modern day phenomenon of UFO visitation. A fascinating topic for all, especially those on ATS reading now, myself included. Although, admittedly, Aliens & UFO's now seemingly one forum I rarely venture into on ATS, partly due to other interests, but It still remains, and probably always will be, one of my all time favorite topics. And how could It not be?

So, as previously mentioned in my previous thread, this is a 3 parter I'm writing up called "Search for Life”, this being part 2.

And again as already mentioned previously I cited examples such as Alien Art, alleged sightings and I tried to look at a couple of reasons why some believe we have been visited by Aliens or if you prefer, Extraterrestrials in the past - namely certain structures present around the world such as Stonehenge, the Nazca lines etc. etc., not forgetting 'Alien art' and so on..

I quite enjoyed the discussion which was made, despite the relatively short length of it and I found that much of what I had thought to believe concerning “Alien History" or AAT was in fact untrue (although I still strongly believe in it on the whole), something I'm now glad to have learnt, or should I say denied my own ignorance of after posting and something I can happily admit came from my fellow ATS'ers. And I thank them for this.

And as I mentioned in that thread also, I always felt that what I wished to share here was too long - to the point where anyone reading what I had to write in it's entirety would simply skip most of it, or instead not be interested enough to take the time to read everything. Something I really didn't want, therefore, I split it up into 3 main sections - The history of..., the present day phenomenon of..., and the future possibility of...

Listed below:

Part 1 - The Search For Life. Part 1 - Earths Extraterrestrial Past...

Part 2 - The Search For Life. Part 2 – Are they here?..

Part 3 - The Search For Life. Part 3 – Finding Life..

This thread is discussing the present day phenomenon of alien life (although I'm still discussing the past of such a thing in this thread still) and looking at whether we could have been visited at all, not forgetting how they could be here, and more. One which I have admittedly been looking forward to, despite reluctantly deciding to write it. And as I mentioned previously, I find this an interesting topic, I just hope others shall find It interesting too.

Thank you and I really hope you continue reading.



First off though, here is a quick guide to the sections I have listed below. I'm hoping that by adding this, members don't have to read everything if they don't want to, but instead find what they are interested in (Thus the reason for the seemingly random yellow text (keep reading and It'll be explained. ))

Main Category of discussion:

The Search for life..

Discussed Points: (Key discussion points are marked in yellow - It's much easier to find the respective section you want to read upon scrolling down the page from reading the below text as the title marked in yellow below, is the exact same text as the headline of it's section.

- Discussion into Venus and the possibility of earthly life evolving from there at some point.
- Discussion into Mars and the possibility of life evolving here at some point in history as well as being present in some way today (citing the presence of water and certain anomolies).
- Outside Our Solar System - Discussion some of The Best Candidates For Life which are outside of our own solar system.

Main Category of discussion:

The Search for life.. Proving Difficult?

Discussed Points:

- Discussion into The Drake Equation., It's origins and how It came to be.
- Discussion into the The challenge of finding life.
- Discussion Into SETI, what It does and why It's important.
- A quick explanation of The Wow! Signal & The Mysterious 2004 Signal which I personally find fascinating. It's only a quick discussion in this thread but I'd love to hear what members thoughts on them are also.
- List of 10 Unexplained phenomenon..

Main Category of discussion:

The search for.. UFOs of extraterrestrial origins

Discussed Points:

- Are They Ours? - My thoughts and feelings into just that..
- Discussion into some of the, what I feel are, most Plausible UFO Cases to date (citing the Mantell UFO, the Yukon UFO, The Barney & Betty Hill UFO incident, The Rendlesham forest UFO and The phoenix Lights as examples (I planned on discussing around 20 more but I realized that was unrealistic and too long.)

Anyway, thanks for reading this quick guide, one which I hope would be helpful, here is the rest of my thread..

The Search for life..

It's probably a stretch of the imagination to suggest that Life, such as that which is seen right here on earth - as evolved as we are, is present anywhere else in our very own solar system. No, a stretch of the imagination is probably an understatement in fact.

But, that's not to say life such as this has never been present here at all! In my personal opinion I think the true stretch of the imagination is suggesting otherwise to just that. You see, I really do think that Life - not as evolved as us but evolved nonetheless, has more than certainly been present in different areas of our solar system at some point in history.

Looking at some some of the key areas, It seems impossible that It hasn't.

Anyway, bearing this small note in mind, here is a discussion into such things. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it also....

Venus

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/81e0ad5aa129.png[/atsimg]

Now, as I said, It may be a bit of a stretch to even suggest that there may be life on Venus today, the "Evolved Kind" I mean, but that's not to say at all that throughout our history, any kind of life has never been present. In fact, research seems to show but the complete opposite as in our solar systems history, way into the past, the sun was obviously much cooler, placing Venus for example in a much more "habitable zone" (Which I'll discuss more soon..) than the one It no longer is in today.

Here, please read this interesting article which puts what I mean here into a much better context:

Four billion years ago the sun was 40 percent cooler than today. During that time, Earth and Mars probably were frozen. Venus, however, is closer to the sun, and may have had warm liquid oceans and a mild climate at the time, notes CU-Boulder Assistant Professor David Grinspoon of the astrophysical and planetary sciences department.

"There is some reason to believe Venus may have been the best haven for life in the early solar system," he said. With 900 degree Fahrenheit surface temperatures and an atmosphere permeated by carbon dioxide, chlorine and sulfuric acid clouds today, Venus seems inhospitable to "our kind of life," he said. "But we really don't know much about life -- its requirements, it's differences and how to recognize it."

It is even possible that life on Earth may have evolved from life forms provided by Venus, Grinspoon said: "Pieces of planets were blasting off of each other all the time early in the evolution of the solar system, and microbes from Venus could easily have wound up on Earth."

(Source)

(Interesting Separate Source)

So It would seem that in history, at the very least, Life on Venus was indeed possible. Something I, and probably others never really thought about all that much - especially with Mars seemingly taking credit for being the more likely source of life other than Earth of course.

Today though, Venus, with temperatures exceeding 450 degrees C on the surface, enough to melt led, Life is simply impossible. Even so though, life on the whole of Venus still isn't considered an impossibility. If anything, we're constantly shown signs that life is one way or another still there...

It may not be the type of life we want to find but It seems as though Life does in fact seem to live on Venus, today. It may be microbial life but it is life nonetheless.

Life in Venus' clouds may be the best way to explain some curious anomalies in the composition of its atmosphere, claimed University of Texas astrobiologists in 2002. They scoured data from NASA's Pioneer and Magellan space probes and from Russia's Venera Venus-lander missions of the 1970s.

Solar radiation and lightning should be generating masses of carbon monoxide on Venus, yet it is rare, as though something is removing it. Hydrogen sulphide and sulphur dioxide are both present too. These readily react together, and are not usually found co-existing, unless some process constantly is churning them out. Most mysterious is the presence of carbonyl sulphide. This is only produced by microbes or catalysts on Earth, and not by any other known inorganic process.

The researchers' suggested solution to this conundrum is that microbes live in the Venusian atmosphere. Venus's searing hot, acidic surface may be prohibitive to life, but conditions 50 kilometres up in the atmosphere are more hospitable and moist, with a temperature of 70°C and a pressure similar to Earth.

Here's yet another separate source...

"It's possible that Venus could have tiny microbes in its cloud particles, or that some form of Venusian life could have developed by using ultraviolet light much like Earth's plants use sunlight to make food. There could even be a non-carbon-based equivalent to lichens atop Venus' five-mile-high volcanoes, perhaps feeding on sulfur gases," he said.

The interactions of Earth's oceans, clouds, surface and biosphere has led some scientists to propose "the Gaia theory", that Earth itself is a living system. "By constantly exhaling sulfur gases that react with the clouds and surface minerals, Venus could be considered in that Gaia realm," notes Grinspoon.

Although NASA's 1989 Magellan probe opened a new window on the planet using sophisticated radar mapping, there is still much to learn about Venus, said Grinspoon. One key is to keep an open mind about chemical and perhaps biological processes that may be occurring there and on other planets.

(Source)

Venus

- Overview
- Read About
- Facts & Figures
- Edfucation

Mars

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1731a7cfbe08.png[/atsimg]

Mars has been more than capable of producing fascinating topic's for discussion in the past on ATS - namely this thread here by Skyfloating reaching a very high level of attention for example, therefore I shall not spend an extortionate amount of time discussing it here. Instead, I shall merely show why I personally believe it was/is possible for life to have evolved at some point.

First off though, please do take the time to watch this interesting short video discussing 5 reasons in particular why Mars may harbor life - or may have in the past. Please do watch...



As was mentioned in the above video, Mars has confirmed to be producing water, something that life can seemingly not live without and something that if present, would most certainly mean Life exists in some way or another, evidence for life on mars shown in these images through the occurrence of water:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fb2454f43508.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/225c8eefda87.jpg[/atsimg]

Dramatic new pictures suggest Mars has flowing liquid water on its surface, increasing the possibility of current life on the planet. Before-and-after images of gullies on the planet taken by Nasa's Mars Global Surveyor show liquid has flowed on the planet in the past five years.

Scientists have previously pointed to features that suggest flowing water on Mars billions of years ago and have collected images of ice at the Martian north pole.

The discovery is unexpected because the planet's temperatures and atmospheric pressure are too low to allow water to exist in liquid form for long.

(Source)

I also came across this fascinating discovery seemingly showing water blobs on mars:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e997cc66a930.gif[/atsimg]

Finding perchlorates on Mars was not only surprising for the Phoenix lander science team, it also has created a bit of a rift among the researchers. In March, Ian reported on one scientist who used strictly photographic evidence to say that blobs appearing on the lander’s legs were actually water. Other scientists, however, including principal investigator Peter Smith were dubious about the “water on Mars now” claims. But now, a group of researchers at the University of Arkansas say they have now demonstrated a potential stable liquid on present-day Mars in the immediate environment of the lander.

The salts formed from perchlorates discovered at the Phoenix landing site act as “anti-freeze” and have the potential to be found in a liquid solution under the temperature and pressure conditions on present-day Mars, say professor Vincent F. Chevrier and graduate students Jennifer Hanley and Travis S. Altheide. Their research is published in the current issue of Geophysical Research Letters.

“Under real, observed Martian conditions, you can have a stable liquid,” said Chevrier.

The researchers studied the properties of sodium and magnesium perchlorates, salts detected by the Phoenix lander, under the temperature, pressure and humidity conditions found at the landing site. The discovery of perchlorates on Mars by the Phoenix mission surprised scientists – the compounds are rare on Earth, found mostly in extremely arid environments such as the Atacama Desert in Chile.

The scientists studied the properties of these salts at varying temperatures using the Andromeda Chamber in the W.M. Keck Laboratory for Space Simulation – a chamber that can imitate the pressure and atmospheric conditions found on Mars. They also performed thermodynamic calculations to determine the state of salt and water combinations on the Martian surface and to see if there was any potential for liquid to be found.

The extreme temperatures found on Mars typically lead to either crystallization or evaporation of water, making it difficult to imagine that water could be found in liquid form. However, salts have been shown to lower the freezing point of water – which is why street crews use salt on the roads to melt ice, Hanley said. Some salts, like perchlorates, lower the freezing point substantially. It turns out that the temperature for the liquid phase of magnesium perchlorate – 206 degrees Kelvin – is a temperature found on Mars at the Phoenix landing site. Based on temperature findings from the Phoenix lander, conditions would allow this perchlorate solution to be present in liquid form for a few hours each day during the summer.

“The window for liquid is very small,” Hanley said. Nevertheless, this finding further supports the possibility of finding life on Mars.

“You don’t necessarily need to have a lot of water to have life,” Chevrier said. “But you need liquid water at some point.”

(Source)

Here are some more interesting images seemingly hinting at a presence of water at some point. I added a small snippet of writing below explaining better than I could also.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4eef58169ca8.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ff8c36f5af73.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/998fc7e94177.jpg[/atsimg]

Did Mars once have a vast network of river valleys – “canals” if you will – and an ocean that covered most of the planet’s northern hemisphere? A new computer-generated map of the Red Planet provides a more detailed look at the valley networks on Mars, and indicates the networks are more than twice as extensive as had been previously depicted in the only other planet-wide map of the valleys. “All the evidence gathered by analyzing the valley network on the new map points to a particular climate scenario on early Mars,” said Wei Luo, from Northern Illinois University (NIU). “It would have included rainfall and the existence of an ocean covering most of the northern hemisphere, or about one-third of the planet’s surface.”

Speaking of which, here are some images of what Mars may have looked like in the past..

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/750d5a76d85b.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/556d2c8dd155.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3e30bd528f85.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cab0487fc97e.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/acf516827b57.jpg[/atsimg]

Water has also been officially confirmed to be on Mars. And where their is water, more than likely there will also be life..

"I'm very happy to announce that we've gotten an ice sample," said the University of Arizona's William Boynton, co-investigator for Phoenix's Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer (TEGA), which heats up samples and analyzes the vapors they give off to determine their composition.

"We have water," Boynton added. "We've seen evidence for this water ice before in observations by the Mars Odyssey orbiter and in disappearing chunks observed by Phoenix last month, but this is the first time Martian water has been touched and tasted."

The news that ice had fallen into TEGA came on Thursday morning, surprising scientists who had run into problems delivering a sample of the icy dirt because of its unexpected stickiness.

"There were champagne corks popping in the downlink room," Boynton said. "It's something we've been waiting a long time for."

Also, evidence seems to show a vast network of water on mars millions of years ago, again, where thee is water there may be life and with such a huge source of water seemingly present, Is it a stretch of the imagination to suggest life, maybe intelligent, was present at some point also?

Anyway, the Mars Anomalies. Please watch this interesting video (It isn't too long )

I do have to admit though, a lot of what Is shown IMO can be nothing but paradolia but they are interesting to ponder over nonetheless:



One thing that sticks out more so than anything else from the above video is the equally spaced objects, something which is an impossibility in nature I believe:

I cite this example,

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/02093aacd16d.gif[/atsimg]

A fascinating place, maybe someday we'll be regularly setting foot here.

Mars

- Overview
- Read About
- Facts & Figures
- Edfucation

Here's an interesting article discussing whether life could be possible in any other area of our solar system as well. Something I'm confident some will find an interesting read. It cites Mars as well as Enceladus, Europa, Titan and Io as examples for possible life elsewhere in our solar system.

Outside Our Solar System

The best candidates for Life:

Gliese 581

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/90c41c93296d.jpg[/atsimg]

The image above of the Gliese 581 system - A red dwarf star with a spectral type M3V, located Approx. 20.3 light years away from Earth in the constellation Libra. It's a particularly unique star system because of the planets which are present here. The ones which are orbiting this red star, namely Gliese 581 e, Gliese 581 b, Gliese 581 c, Gliese 581 g, Gliese 581 d, Gliese 581 f.

Gliese 581 G being the only one in the all important "habitable zone."

Whether life is here is a completely different matter of course and we may not know for a while. Or until we find a way to get much closer to examine. So, for all we know It could be a barren wasteland like mars or a thriving world full of life like Earth. We just don't know as of right now.

What we know of is it is certainly possible to harbor some sort of life at this moment of time - the possibility is at least there, and for that reason the excitement surrounding it is justified. Anyway, as It's a relative unknown, I shall not discuss it in a great amount of detail (as I couldn't be able to anyway). So, here is a snippet from an interview with Steven Vogt that I found interesting:

In an interview with Lisa-Joy Zgorski of the National Science Foundation, Steven Vogt was asked what he thought about the chances of life existing on Gliese 581 g. Vogt was optimistic: "I'm not a biologist, nor do I want to play one on TV. Personally, given the ubiquity and propensity of life to flourish wherever it can, I would say that, my own personal feeling is that the chances of life on this planet are 100%. I have almost no doubt about it."[38]

In the same article Dr. Seager is quoted as saying "Everyone is so primed to say here's the next place we’re going to find life, but this isn’t a good planet for follow-up." [38] According to Vogt, the long lifetime of red dwarfs improves the chances of life being present. "It's pretty hard to stop life once you give it the right conditions", she said.[39] "Life on other planets doesn`t mean E.T. Even a simple single-cell bacteria or the equivalent of shower mold would shake perceptions about the uniqueness of life on Earth."

(Source)

GJ 1214 b

GJ 1214 b is an extrasolar super-Earth, one which was discovered in Late 2009 orbiting a star called GJ 1214, at a distance of 13 parsecs or approximately 40 light-years from Earth, in the constellation Ophiuchus. It is the second exoplanet (after COROT-7b) discovered and is the first of a new class of planets with small size and relatively low density. The planet is also significant because of its proximity to Earth, and because it transits a small parent star, which should allow its atmosphere to be studied using current technologies.

Being so far away from us though, information is scarce. That being so, I did come across an interesting article explaining how this planet has an atmosphere that's similar to our own here on earth still.

And It's heavly suspected that water is indeed present here..

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9613ef8cba16.jpg[/atsimg]

KOI 326.01

KOI 326.01 is IMO, one of those strong candidates for hosting life, perhaps one of the best. I won't go into it in too much detail as with these issues, information is scare, instead, I feel more comfortable relying on something that can explain a bit better. Anyway, here is one such interesting article:

Scientists claim that our galaxy, the Milky Way, consists of al least 50 billion planets; and out of at least 500 million of that big figure are in a zone that is neither too hot nor too cold to support life.

NASA's Kepler planet-hunting probe has thus far identified 1,235 candidate planets, with 54 in the so-called Goldilocks zone, where temperate could be suitable for sustaining life.

One of the candidate planets is KOI 326.01, which is similar to Earth or smaller in size, and has an average temperature lower than water's boiling point. However, data to confirm the planet's existence and its characteristics is scarce. Scientists do not even have sufficient knowledge about the size of the planet’s parent star.

Speaking on KOI 326.01, planetary scientist William Borucki from NASA's Ames Research Center said, "It's a small object, a small candidate.”

Borucki added that further observations in future could provide data for that confirmation. Kepler spots an exso planet when the planet blocks light coming from its star while passing in front of the star. As per the available data, so far, 44 per cent of the stars should have planets; and 10 per cent of those planets should be similar to Earth in size. So, one can expect KOI 326.01-like more candidate planets in near future.

(Source)

The Drake Equation

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/515b41ded0e1.jpg[/atsimg]

[pressimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/83576207ec72.jpg[/pressimg]The drake equation was the first agenda for the first SETI meeting in 1961, It was first thought up by a man named Frank Drake (see left), hence the name "The 'Drake' Equation." He seemingly first thought of it while preparing for the meeting itself as he seemingly quotes:

"As I planned the meeting, I realized a few day(s) ahead of time we needed an agenda. And so I wrote down all the things you needed to know to predict how hard it's going to be to detect extraterrestrial life. And looking at them it became pretty evident that if you multiplied all these together, you got a number, N, which is the number of detectable civilizations in our galaxy. This, of course, was aimed at the radio search, and not to search for primordial or primitive life forms."

It later grew to become the equation we see today. Drake conceived a means to mathematically estimate the number of worlds that might harbor beings with technology capable to be able to communicate through space - i.e. technology to at least our own standard.

Frank Drake's own current solution to the Drake Equation estimates 10,000 communicative civilizations in the Milky Way alone. (I couldn't find a source which states a higher number than this but there may be one)

According to The SETI Website, the Drake equation states that:

The equation is usually written:
N = R* • fp • ne • fl • fi • fc • L

Where,

N = The number of civilizations in The Milky Way Galaxy whose electromagnetic emissions are detectable.

R* =The rate of formation of stars suitable for the development of intelligent life.

fp = The fraction of those stars with planetary systems.

ne = The number of planets, per solar system, with an environment suitable for life.

fl = The fraction of suitable planets on which life actually appears.

fi = The fraction of life bearing planets on which intelligent life emerges.

fc = The fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space.

L = The length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.
(Source)

Try the Drake Equation yourself here..

I also found this interesting thread which discusses a new equation focused primarily on making an equation on habitability of planets as well that some may find interesting: New Drake Equation To Quantify Habitability.

The challenge of finding life

As we are all aware, the universe is a rather large place, to say the least. Thus Finding life proving more elusive than one would hope. Whether It's down to nothing but the fact that we are indeed alone, something many, myself included, simply refuse to believe and something many here on ATS seem to not be able to comprehend, or whether It's instead down to the universe just being an incredibly large place and mastering travel through It has not yet reached an advanced stage or a level whee we can do to a point where we can search for life much easier, I really don't know.

But whether there is life on a world that we don't happen to call home is today a question being asked still. But, Have you ever wondered how large a place we are in? Well, It's something I and I doubt anyone else could explain or show in great detail.

That being so, the best example I could find to show such a thing is an image I'm sure many here are already aware of, but It's an image I feel should be shared time and time again.

Hopefully this will show, even a little, how large a place we really live in.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/332a1c1c1b32.jpg[/atsimg]

Feeling small in our world, something we all will do at time point, never felt more real after seeing that image I find.

The search for life is also hit with yet another speed bump, more aptly named as the "habitable zone" - something I previously mentioned already. (see above)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fdb30bd74bee.png[/atsimg]

For life to evolve, It must fit into the Habitable one (A.K.A. The Goldilocks region), otherwise water will either be too warm where It will evaporate from being too close to It's own sun or It will be frozen from being outside the habitable zone in relation to being in a region of space which is too far from It's own sun (the stronger the sun, the further away from the Habitable zone). Thus life not being able to develop correctly.

It seems like we have only a very small, tiny window of opportunity for life to develop, where all the conditions must be met and where the slightest thing out of place can abruptly bring things crashing down. But we and we alone are more than enough proof to at least suggest Life is possible on other worlds. After all, If It can happen here, It could theoretically happen elsewhere too.

So despite the seemingly small window or opportunity, It's a window big enough still.

SETI

SETI officially stands for the Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. SETI. It is an organization of astronomers doing quite simply what the title suggests - searching for extraterrestrial intelligent life outside a world of our own. Again, SETI.

It was formed in around 1960 I believe after the publication of an article in the British periodical nature called "Searching for Interstellar Communications." In the article a strategy was being discussed for scanning nearby sun-like stars for microwave radiation which could not be explained by natural causes, in other words, signs of alien life.

It was at around this time also that radio astronomer Frank Drake (see the above section, The Drake Equation) was performing an experiment similar to what they had in fact been discussing at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory. It was an experiment which surveyed two nearby sun-like stars, for merely a few weeks, at just one frequency. Unfortunately It detected no signs of any extra-terrestrial signals but It's still hailed as the very first SETI study.

The first ever SETI meeting however was in 1961 where Frank Drank was then able to discuss the now infamous Drake Equation (again, please see above). Over the years, despite practically no government funding, they seemingly have achieved some interesting results, here are just a couple which I find fascinating:

The Wow! Signal

The "Wow!" signal was a strong narrow band radio signal originally detected by a Dr. Jerry R. Ehman on August 15, 1977, while working on a SETI project at the 'Big Ear radio telescope' at Ohio State University. What's particularly special about this signal is that It actually is incredibly close to the expected signal coming from an extraterrestrial source. So much so that upon inspection, on the computer print out, ehman wrote the word Wow! (see below) thus the origins of the name.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/df03be8f337e.jpg[/atsimg]

The signal lasted for Approximately 72 seconds in total I believe and for some reason, despite tremendous efforts, was not to be heard from again. Whether this shows It's nothing but a mistake or a natural phenomenon, I simply don't know. But It doesn't refute the possibility of a genuine extraterrestrial source (Personally I believe It's possible It was something similar to a lighthouse effect).

The location of the signal comes from the constellation Sagittarius, roughly 2.5 degrees south of the fifth-magnitude star group Chi Sagittarii. Tau Sagittarii is the closest easily visible star.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/102149b47064.jpg[/atsimg]

The location of the signal in the constellation Sagittarius, near the Chi Sagittarii star group. Because of the design of the experiment, the location may lie in either one of the two red bands, and there is also significant uncertainty in the declination (vertical axis). For clarity, the widths of the red bands are not drawn to scale; they should actually be narrower.

(Source)

Here's an interesting explanation also,

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/108ec0a6dcbe.png[/atsimg]

The Big Ear telescope was fixed and used the rotation of the Earth to scan the sky. At the speed of the Earth's rotation, and given the width of the Big Ear's observation "window", the Big Ear could observe any given point for just 72 seconds. A continuous extraterrestrial signal, therefore, would be expected to register for exactly 72 seconds, and the recorded intensity of that signal would show a gradual peaking for the first 36 seconds—until the signal reached the center of Big Ear's observation "window"— and then a gradual decrease.

Therefore, both the length of the Wow! signal, 72 seconds, and the shape of the intensity graph may correspond to a possible extraterrestrial origin.

(Source)

It truly is IMO a fascinating discovery and until someone here can provide me any reason to disbelieve It (something I'd be more than happy to hear), I personally will believe It was one of the first documented cases of true extraterrestrial contact.

Again though, I'm always more than happy to have my mind changed.

The mysterious 2004 signal

"It's the most interesting signal from SETI@home," says Dan Werthimer, a radio astronomer at the University of California, Berkeley (UCB) and the chief scientist for SETI@home. "We're not jumping up and down, but we are continuing to observe it."

Named SHGb02+14a, the signal has a frequency of about 1420 megahertz. This happens to be one of the main frequencies at which hydrogen, the most common element in the universe, readily absorbs and emits energy.

Some astronomers have argued that extraterrestrials trying to advertise their presence would be likely to transmit at this frequency, and SETI researchers conventionally scan this part of the radio spectrum.

SHGb02+14a seems to be coming from a point between the constellations Pisces and Aries, where there is no obvious star or planetary system within 1000 light years. And the transmission is very weak.

"We are looking for something that screams out ‘artificial'," says UCB researcher Eric Korpela, who completed the analysis of the signal in April. "This just doesn't do that, but it could be because it is distant."

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6d8dd84cd9cf.jpg[/atsimg]

It's more than likely that this signal was in fact something mundane and explainable, and to be perfectlky honest, It's actually more logical to assume that the less preferred option (something explainable over something that is not..) here is the correct one, but that being so, the possibility is still there for something much more interesting.

Anyway, In my research, I came across what I found was an interesting article discussing some other anomalies found in space that I'm sure some would find interesting.

I actually wasn't actually planning on adding this at all but It seemed like an interesting article to say the least..:

List of 10 Unexplained phenomenon

1. 1976, The Viking Mars landers detect chemical signatures indicative of life

Tests performed on Martian soil samples by NASA's Viking landers hinted at chemical evidence of life. One experiment mixed soil with radioactive-carbon-labelled nutrients and then tested for the production of radioactive methane gas.

The test reported a positive result. The production of radioactive methane suggested that something in the soil was metabolising the nutrients and producing radioactive gas. But other experiments on board failed to find any evidence of life, so NASA declared the result a false positive.

Despite that, one of the original scientists - and others who have since re-analysed the data - still stand by the finding. They argue that the other experiments on board were ill-equipped to search for evidence of the organic molecules - a key indicator of life.

(Source)

2. 1977, The unexplained extraterrestrial "Wow!" signal is detected by an Ohio State University radio telescope

In August 1977 an Ohio State University radio telescope detected an unusual pulse of radiation from somewhere near the constellation Sagittarius. The 37-second-long signal was so startling that an astronomer monitoring the data scrawled "Wow!" on the telescope's printout.

The signal was within the band of radio frequencies where transmissions are internationally banned on Earth. Furthermore, natural sources of radiation from space usually cover a wider range of frequencies.

As the nearest star in that direction is 220 million light years away, either a massive astronomical event - or intelligent aliens with a very powerful transmitter would have had to have created it. The signal remains unexplained.

(Source)

3. 1996, Martian "fossils" are discovered in meteorite ALH84001 from Antarctica

NASA scientists controversially announced in 1996 that they had found what appeared to be fossilised microbes in a potato-shaped lump of Martian rock. The meteorite was probably blasted off the surface of Mars in a collision, and wandered the solar system for some 15 million years, before plummeting to Antarctica, where it was discovered in 1984.

Careful analysis revealed that the rock contained organic molecules and tiny specs of the mineral magnetite, sometimes found in Earth bacteria. Under the electron microscope, NASA researchers also claimed to have spotted signs of "nanobacteria".

But since then much of the evidence has been challenged. Other experts have suggested that the particles of magnetite were not so similar to those found in bacteria after all, and that contaminants from Earth are the source of the organic molecules. A 2003 study also showed how crystals that resemble nanobacteria could be grown in the laboratory by chemical processes.

(Source)

4. 2001, More rigorous calculations connected to the 1960s "Drake equation" suggests that our galaxy may contain hundreds of thousands of life-bearing planets

In 1961 US radio astronomer Frank Drake developed an equation to help estimate the number of planets hosting intelligent life - and capable of communicating with us - in the galaxy.

The Drake equation multiplies together seven factors including: the formation rate of stars like our Sun, the fraction of Earth-like planets and the fraction of those on which life develops. Many of these figures are open to wide debate, but Drake himself estimates the final number of communicating civilisations in the galaxy to be about 10,000.

In 2001, a more rigorous estimate of the number of life-bearing planets in the galaxy - using new data and theories - came up with a figure of hundreds of thousands. For the first time, the researchers estimated how many planets might lie in the "habitable zone" around stars, where water is liquid and photosynthesis possible. The results suggest that an inhabited Earth-like planet could be as little as a few hundred light years away.

(Source)

5. 2001, The red tinge of Jupiter's moon Europa proposed to be due to frozen bits of bacteria, which also helps explain the mysterious infrared signal it gives off

Alien microbes might be behind Europa's red tinge, suggested NASA researchers in 2001. Though the surface is mostly ice, data shows it reflects infrared radiation in an odd manner. That suggests that something - magnesium salts perhaps - are binding it together. But no one has been able to come up with the right combination of compounds to make sense of the data.

Intriguingly, the infrared spectra of some Earthly bacteria - those that thrive in extreme conditions - fits the data at least as well as magnesium salts. Plus, some are red and brown in colour, perhaps explaining the moon's ruddy complexion. Though bacteria might find it difficult to survive in the scant atmosphere and -170°C surface temperature of Europa, they might survive in the warmer liquid interior. Geological activity could then spew them out periodically to be flash frozen on the surface.

(Source)

6. 2002, Russian scientists argue that a mysterious radiation-proof species of microbe may have evolved on Mars

In 2002 Russian astrobiologists claimed that super-hardy Deinococcus radiourans evolved on Mars. The microbe can survive several thousand times the radiation dose that would kill a human.

The Russians zapped a population of the bacteria with enough radiation to kill 99.9%, allowed the survivors to repopulate, before repeating the cycle. After 44 rounds it took 50 times the original dose of radiation. They calculated that it would take many thousands of these cycles to make common microbe E.coli as resilient as Deinococcus. And on Earth it takes between a million and 100 million years to encounter each dose of radiation. Therefore there just has not been enough time in life's 3.8 billion year history on Earth for such resistance to have evolved, they claim.

By contrast, the surface of Mars, unprotected by a dense atmosphere, is bombarded with so much radiation that the bugs could receive the same dose in just a few hundred thousand years. The researchers argue that Deinococcus's ancestors were flung off of Mars by an asteroid and fell to Earth on meteorites. Other experts remain sceptical.

(Source)

7. 2002, Chemical hints of life are found in old data from Venus probes and landers. Could microbes exist in Venusian clouds?

Life in Venus' clouds may be the best way to explain some curious anomalies in the composition of its atmosphere, claimed University of Texas astrobiologists in 2002. They scoured data from NASA's Pioneer and Magellan space probes and from Russia's Venera Venus-lander missions of the 1970s.

Solar radiation and lightning should be generating masses of carbon monoxide on Venus, yet it is rare, as though something is removing it. Hydrogen sulphide and sulphur dioxide are both present too. These readily react together, and are not usually found co-existing, unless some process constantly is churning them out. Most mysterious is the presence of carbonyl sulphide. This is only produced by microbes or catalysts on Earth, and not by any other known inorganic process.

The researchers' suggested solution to this conundrum is that microbes live in the Venusian atmosphere. Venus's searing hot, acidic surface may be prohibitive to life, but conditions 50 kilometres up in the atmosphere are more hospitable and moist, with a temperature of 70°C and a pressure similar to Earth.

(Source)

8. 2003, Sulphur traces on Jupiter's moon Europa may be the waste products of underground bacterial colonies

In 2003, Italian scientists hypothesised that sulphur traces on Europa might be a sign of alien life. The compounds were first detected by the Galileo space probe, along with evidence for a volcanically-warmed ocean beneath the moon's icy crust.

The sulphur signatures look similar to the waste-products of bacteria, which get locked into the surface ice of lakes in Antarctica on Earth. The bacteria survive in the water below, and similar bacteria might also thrive below Europa's surface, the researchers suggest. Others experts rejected the idea, suggesting that the sulphur somehow originates from the neighbouring moon Io, where it is found in abundance.

(Source)

9. 2004, Methane in the Martian atmosphere hints at microbial metabolism

In 2004 three groups - using telescopes on Earth and the European Space Agency's Mars Express orbiting space probe - independently turned up evidence of methane in the atmosphere. Nearly all methane in our own atmosphere is produced by bacteria and other life.

Methane could also be generated by volcanism, the thawing of frozen underground deposits, or delivered by comet impacts. However, the source has to be recent, as the gas is rapidly destroyed on Mars or escapes into space.

In January 2005, an ESA scientist controversially announced that he had also found evidence of formaldehyde, produced by the oxidation of methane. If this is proved it will strengthen the case for microbes, as a whopping 2.5 million tonnes of methane per year would be required to create the quantity of formaldehyde postulated to exist.

There are ways to confirm the presence of the gas, but scientists will need to get the equipment to Mars first.

(Source)

10. 2004, A mysterious radio signal is received by the SETI

In February 2003, astronomers with the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) project, used a massive telescope in Puerto Rico to re-examine 200 sections of the sky which had all previously yielded unexplained radio signals. These signals had all disappeared, except for one which had become stronger.

The signal - widely thought to be the best candidate yet for an alien contact - comes from a spot between the constellations Pisces and Aries, where there are no obvious stars or planets. Curiously, the signal is at one of the frequencies that hydrogen, the most common element, absorbs and emits energy. Some astronomers believe that this is a very likely frequency at which aliens wishing to be noticed would transmit.

Nevertheless, there is also a good chance the signal is from a never-seen-before natural phenomenon. For example, an unexplained pulsed radio signal, thought to be artificial in 1967, turned out to be the first ever sighting of a pulsar.

(Source)

The search for.. UFOs of extraterrestrial origins

Are They Ours?

Whether you believe in Aliens or whether you believe the government is secretly conducting aeronautical "projects" for what ever reason instead, one thing is most certainly clear - UFO's are more than present today and are more than obvious facts. UFO of course meaning Unidentified Flying object, something many on this website as well as in other areas of discussion seem to forget. This being so, with that one small fact, the question begs.., Are They Ours?

And there really isn't any conclusive evidence to suggest that what people are seeing, and many ARE seeing "things", is one thing or the other (Well, IMO), or perhaps something else! Therefore I've personally always found It a tricky subject to discuss, look at and gather an opinion of.

Of course the rational thinker in me says It's governmental projects as opposed to Aliens from outer space given the choice between the two which are the true cause for peoples sightings, after all they have been occurring for a while now It seems, and just take a look at some of the projects I managed to find that are actually set for future release as examples:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/171bb6212479.jpg[/atsimg]

Future flight? Boeing unveils its innovative design for a faster, bigger and cleaner aircraft

(Source)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c41543255165.jpg[/atsimg]

Cutting edge: The Northrop Grumman concept is twice as nice as current aircraft

(Source)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0b96eb55e07f.jpg[/atsimg]

Nasa's Solar Flapper is an unconventional concept for a plane that would use solar power and flapping of the aircraft's 'wings' to propel itself up and forward

(Source)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/95e542636281.jpg[/atsimg]

The Flying Yacht: The Aeroscraft ML866 offers the ultimate luxury experience

(Source)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1d8427e07905.jpg[/atsimg]

This futuristic 'flying saucer' design is not only space-age but eco-friendly too, designed by the CleanEra project, led by Etnel Straatsma of Delft University of Technology in The Netherlands

(Source)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4eb4da1572cf.jpg[/atsimg]

Industrial designer Luigi Colani came up with this concept for Japan Airlines

(Source)

It's easy to see why many would mistake one of these objects, assuming they have been used at some point in a governmental project as an example (not that they have but It's a possibility), for an otherworldly or a just in general "paranormal phenomenon".

Then again, even with such a rational explanation, the conspiracy theorist in me seems to come racing out and I find myself thinking about what I feel is the "fact" that of course Aliens Exist and that being so I ask, why can't be have come here at some point? And looking back to my previous thread, I still find it hard to dispute AAT entirely as It more than seems we have been visited at some point. So, back to square one I go.

Not forgetting I find myself asking the question, Could EVERYONES unusual anomalous sightings be explained via the government aeronautical theory - That truly is hard to believe.

So, yeah, It really is a fiscal topic to ponder over, one I both enjoy and hate at the same time. And I would certainly love to hear others thoughts on such a thing as well. I mean, can the government, which quite frankly gets blamed or is given way too much credit for what goes on in this world (when I say that, I mean that their not as intelligent as most believe them to be I feel), but can they really be responsible for every sighting? Every unusual light in the sky? Every single thing that made someone go Hmm?

I don't buy it..

I just don't buy it at all. But, like I said, I'd love to hear others opinions on such a thing....

Bearing all of this in mind though, here are some fascinating cases I've come across in my short time studying Ufology for this thread. Some of these cases are some of the most interesting and or fascinating I've had the pleasure to come across and some are possibly some of the best known cases for genuine Alien visitation..In my most humble opinion. And hopefully some that fit into that small percentage of NON-governmental, NON-natural, NON-human caused UFO sighting.


There was too many characters, so please continue reading into the next post.

Thank you.

Plausible UFO Cases

The Mantell UFO Incident

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3c43269d9e95.png[/atsimg]

January 7th 1948, around 1:20PM I believe, several witnesses on the ground in Owensboro, Irvington, and Maysville report a large, strange, unknown metallic object in the sky. This strange object was also seen by Sgt. Quinton Blackwell and two other witnesses whom saw the object while situated at the Fort Knox Airfield Control Tower who was to eventually order to have the object intercepted by Mantell (part of the 165th Fighter Squadron Kentucky Air National Guard) and 3 others. (Although 1 had to turn back to due a lack of fuel so in It can be argued It was merely 2 others instead).

Operators in the control tower of Godman Air Force Base alerted to the strange object which was near by, happened to get a good look at it It would seem. They themselves report It as being: "Extremely large, white in color, and round with a red light on its belly". The object appeared to be moving systematically also, yet slowly to the south".

It was only at around an hour after the first sighting were made, Mantell and his squadron were radioed to check out the mysterious unknown object - which is where Mantell and his crew come in.

The aircraft they flew in was, I believe, something similar to this below:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c88ced63e86d.jpg[/atsimg]

A P-51 Mustang.

Mantell and the others reported making visual contact with the object but It was at a distance too far away from them (and an altitude which was too high) to obtain a good look thus verifying the true origin of the object was proving difficult. Mantell then decided to further pursue it all the while the others had decided to turn back. Low on Oxygen, It's claimed Mantell had eventually passed out thus causing the crash of his aircraft. But this official story, like many official stories on such things, doesn't appear to make much sense when looking at the entire picture.

One such anomaly coming from James F. Duesler - who was a pilot and crash investigator stating "The UFO was a strange, gray-looking object, which looked like a rotating inverted ice cream cone." He also was one of several military officers at Godman, whom was retired and living in England and in 1997, officially stating that he and several other officers actually saw the gigantic UFO hovering over Godman field that day. And It was seemingly of extraterrestrial origin..

Anyway, shortly after the crash, Duesler visited the site, and made these observations,

"The wings and tail section had broken off on impact with the ground and were a short distance from the plane," he recalled. "There was no damage to the surrounding trees and it was obvious that there had been no forward or sideways motion when the plane had come down. It just appeared to have "belly flopped" into the clearing. There was very little damaged to the fuselage, which was in one piece, and no signs of blood whatsoever in the cockpit.

There was no scratching on the body of the fuselage to indicate any forward movement and the propeller blade bore no telltale scratch marks to show it had been rotating at the time of impact, and one blade had been embedded into the ground. The damage pattern was not consistent with an aircraft of this type crashing at high speed into the ground.

Those in the Operations Room of Scott Air Force Base in Belleville, Illinois seem to confirm that Mantell was indeed close enough to this object to make profound statements about It's true origins such as those highlighted below. Here is a snippet:

Richard T. Miller, who was in the Operations Room of Scott Air Force Base in Belleville, Illinois also made several profound statements regarding the crash. He was monitoring the radio talk between Mantell and Godman tower, and heard this statement very clearly. "My God, I see people in this thing!" Miller added that on the morning after the crash, at a briefing, investigators had stated that Mantell died "pursuing an intelligently controlled unidentified flying object."

In conclusion, Miller made this statement, "that evening, Air Technical Intelligence Center officers from Wright-Patterson AFB arrived and ordered all personnel to turn over any materials relating to the crash. "Then, after we had turned it over to them, they said they had already completed the investigation." "I was no longer a skeptic. I had been up to that time. Now I wondered why the Government had gone to all of the trouble of covering it up, to keep it away from the press and the public."

(Source)

The report adds that no official transcription of the conversation has been recorded. However, later, the airmen present in the control tower at the time of the incident were interrogated.
Their declarations put together generated this version of the flight that cost the Captain's life. At approximately 02:45pm, Mantell stated that he saw the unidentified object "directly ahead and above me and flying at a speed twice less than mine". He continued: "It seems made out of metal and terribly large... it makes me think of the reflection of the sun on the transparent canopy of an airplane."

(Source)

What the witnessess whom were on the ground say as well is fascinating stuff and something worth pondering over in regards to whether Mantell actually lost consciousness or whether his fate was somthing more sinister:

Glen Mays, who lived near Franklin, KY stated categorically that Mantell's plane exploded in mid-air." The plane circled three times, like the pilot didn’t know where he was going," reported Mays, "and then started down into a dive from about 20,000 feet. About halfway down there was a terrific explosion." Then again, there is the testimony of Godman Base Commander Guy F. Hix, who stated to reporters that he observed the craft for almost an hour through binoculars. He would not have confused what he saw with the planet Venus.

(Source)

A P-51 fighter aircraft of the Army exploded in full sky and crashed on Joe Phillips's farm at approximately 5 miles in the south of Franklin yesterday afternoon towards 03:30 pm, killing the pilot, identified as being Thomas F. Mantell, 3533 River Park Drive, Louisville. The plane's identification was Ky. NG 869.

Mrs. Joe Phillips said she was sitting at the fireplace when she heard the plane, with its engine seemingly at difficulty, flying close to the house. Almost at once there was a great explosion. Surprised, she looked though the window and saw the disintegrated aircraft strike the ground in a wooden area at approximately 200 yards of her house.

Pieces of the aircraft were found within a quarter of mile of the point of impact. Several Franklin people declared they have heard the explosion.

A vapor column still floated in the sky one hour after the crash.

Another eyewitness, Barbara Mayes, a student in Franklin said she saw the aircraft exploding as it was high in the sky. She waited for the bus that would bring her back home from the Lake Springs college when she saw the explosion.

(Source)

I can't seem to find much more information on the witnesses themselves which is unfortunate as I find what they have to say quite interesting indeed, and It would seem the source the above source is now offline also (It was a great source of information too). Anyway, this truly is a fascinating case IMO, one which seems to show genuine sightings of a.) An Unknown craft and b.) Occupants in said craft as seen by an individual whom died shortly after claiming to see them. Not forgetting the seemingly pending cover-up.

Whether his death is the result of a conspiracy is still a question being asked and a question remaining unanswered, but Mnatell still is often referred to as the very first death to come from a UFO. And I can see why..

I'd love to hear thoughts...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/10e6c553c923.jpg[/atsimg]

Notable ATS threads on the subject.

- The Mantell UFO Incident - Jkrog08
- FOIA: PBB - Capt. Mantell Accident Investigation - AboveTopSecret.com
- FOIA: PBB Investigaton File - Capt. Mantell Case 07Jan48 - AboveTopSecret.com
- The Mantell Case – Mistaken Identity - Gazrok

Yukon UFO

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/00085218b1d3.jpg[/atsimg]

The Yukon UFO is another great case, and like the previous one, this seemed to gather quite a lot of witness evidence also. More so than the previous in fact partly due to the time of the sighting (in regards to the year) and partly due to how close the object was to the witnesses. Namely around 30 + individuals All seemingly verifying the same thing - or something similar, I believe.

Here are, first of all, some of the witness testimonies. Some of which wish to remain anonymous thus the names "fox1" or "fox2" for example:

Witness Testimonies:

- Testimony of UFO Witness FOX1
- Testimonies of UFO Witnesses FOX2 and FOX3
- FOX3's Personal Account
- Testimony of UFO Witnesses FOX4 and FOX5
- Testimony of UFO Witness FOX6
- Testimony of UFO Witness PEL1
- Testimony of UFO Witnesses PEL2 and PEL3
- Testimony of UFO Witnesses PEL4, PEL5, PEL6 and PEL7
- Testimonies of UFO Witnesses CRM1, CRM2, CRM3, and CRM4*
- Testimonies of UFO Witnesses CRM5, CRM6, CRM7, CRM8 and CRM9

The Yukon UFO was a sighting by many individuals (just see the close proximity witnesses above) on the Klondike Highway in the Yukon Territory of Canada on December 11th, 1996. It's a significant case more than likely due to the amount of witnesses all whom were in different locations telling seemingly the story of what was a huge UFO sighting. And an object which is similar in all sightings from different locations.

Here is where the Yukon UFO sightings occurred exactly:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2dad00f3641e.jpg[/atsimg]

Here are some of the drawings presented by some of the witnesses (many of which are anonymous) (External material is below the image it is 'linked' to)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/224ffe751b3b.jpg[/atsimg]

Figure 3. First drawing by UFO witness FOX3 depicting the UFO encounter he and FOX2 had near Fox Lake, Yukon.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/522a0a4c58ff.jpg[/atsimg]

Investigator's interpretation of UFO drawing by witness FOX1 (Figure 17-1). It appeared as a smooth surface in the sky illuminated by a light.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/10071fed0285.jpg[/atsimg]

Figure 33. FOX3 was asked to take this photograph and put his finger at the location where the bottom of the UFO was. Knowing the distance to his cousin (FOX2) and the vertical angular height supplied from the photo above, it was calculated that the UFO was only 65 metres (213 ft) above FOX2!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/69156cc5ace4.jpg[/atsimg]

Figure 32. FOX3 estimates the angular size of the UFO while on site at the UFO sighting location. The geometry between his eyes and the tip of his hands was measured and used to calculate the UFO size. His cousin (FOX2) was 570 metres (1870 ft)ahead of him during the UFO sighting and was directly underneath the edge of the UFO. This information was used to obtain a UFO size of 1.7 km (1.1 miles) in length!

Here is a drawing of what FOX3 claimed the underbelly of the UFO looked like:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5c2000111fc7.jpg[/atsimg]

Here it is from the side:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ae3bae634b1b.jpg[/atsimg]

Figure 6. First drawing by UFO witness FOX2 depicting the UFO encounter he and FOX3 had near Fox Lake, Yukon. The drawing depicts a side view of the UFO when it was still out over the lake.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3378c3248963.jpg[/atsimg]

Figure 7. Second drawing by UFO witness FOX2 depicting a map view of Fox Lake and his position on the Klondike Highway when he first spotted the UFO out over the lake. The UFO moved slowly toward him. Note that the UFO is drawn taking up about one half the width of Fox Lake.

It seems like a fascinating case, with many sightings and detailed drawings but whether It's a genuine UFO sighting, well, that's a different matter. It's hard to dispute with such great and detailed drawings and statements though.

What do you think?

Anyway,

Notable ATS threads on the subject.

- Yukon UFO "Mothership" Incident: December 11th, 1996 - Jkrog08
- Abduction In Yukon: North Canol Road and The Insectoids, September 3rd, 1987 - Jrog08
- The North Canol Road Abduction Yukon, Canada - 1nL1ghtened
- First report on the Yukon Digital Night Scope for UFO chasing. - Pappie54

Barny & Betty Hill UFO Incident.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e2fe4de4d0fe.jpg[/atsimg]

Hailed as "the first abduction" case of our time by some, and seen as one of the most researched and quite simply put, Best, UFO encounters of all time, the Betty and Barney Hill UFO incident is one of my personal favorites. It details the story of Betty and Barney Hill, an American couple living in Portsmouth, New Hampshire whom were seemingly abducted by what we now recognize as "Grey Aliens".

It occurred while they were on Holiday - more specifically while driving back from it - At about a quarter past 10:00 PM, three miles south of the city of Lancaster. It was then that they noticed what appeared to be a strange light in the sky, seemingly following them. At first believing it to be a plane due to It's movement.

As the two continued their journey to the Flume, just north of North Woodstock, the object appeared to move in what an be described as an "odd" way.

Barney, whom was driving eventually stopped the car, I believe to let the dog out of the car for a short while, but decided to take his binocular with him in the hope of obtaining a clearer view of the object to ascertain what It was, presumably.

It's claimed that what he saw was multi-colored lights, rows of windows on a flat-shaped object and stranegly occupants - the object now beginning to move toward him. What happened next was one of UFOlogy's most famous case..

Startled, he ran back to his car where Betty was, and they drove off at speed. I believe It was at this point in time the object shifted and was seemingly not just closer to them, but above them, although It could not be seen. Betty I believe looking for the object after seeing it shift in a direction above them but not while It was there. The Hills then recall hearing a strange beeping sound - resembling something of a the distinctive tone of a microwave. Then It beeped once more and the couple were none other than 35 miles from where they had previously been.

From later recollections (I believe via Hypnosis - Please keep reading), they recall their car vibrating and stalling. Betty touched the metal on the passenger door expecting to feel an electric shock, but felt only the vibration.

Betty then after the night's strange occurrence, started having terrifying dreams, among other anomalies experienced by the couple, seemingly of the encounter they just had! She envisioned being taken into a spacecraft by strange looking men, undertaken medical examinations and so on in her nightmares - something she was to recall through her hypnosis.

Upon arriving home after the incident Betty Hill also phoned Janet, her sister to inform her of the previous events which occurred where Janet urged her to call "Please Air Force Base, and tell them what her and Barney had seen". After hearing Betty's report, Major Paul W. Henderson, told her:

"The UFO was also confirmed by our radar."

They eventually sought the help from a professional where the true origins, under regression, of what this object was, or where the "missing time" seemingly had escaped to was to come out.

Betty hill, while abducted and confirmed while under regression, claimed that she was also shown a star map (something which seems to occur with many abduction cases), here is what Margorie Fish, one of those heavily involved with studying the case claims about the star map:

statement:

"On Aug. 4, 1969, Betty Hill discussed the star map with me. Betty explained that she drew the map in 1964 under posthypnotic suggestion. It was to be drawn only if she could remember it accurately, and she was not to pay attention to what she was drawing - which puts it in the realm of automatic drawing.

This is a way of getting at repressed or forgotten material and can result in unusual accuracy. She made two erasures showing her conscious mind took control part of the time.

Betty described the map as three-dimensional, like looking through a window.

The stars were tinted and glowed. The map material was flat and thin (not a model), and there were no noticeable lenticular lines like one of our three-dimensional processes. (It sounds very much like a reflective hologram.)"

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5f62b87f67b7.jpg[/atsimg]

Betty did not shift her position while viewing it, so we cannot tell if it would give the same three-dimensional view from all positions or if it would be completely three-dimensional. Betty estimated the map was approximately three feet wide and two feet high with the pattern covering most of the map.

She was standing about three feet away from it. She said there were many other stars on the map but she only (apparently) was able to specifically recall the prominent ones connected by lines and a small distinctive triangle off to the left.

There was no concentration of stars to indicate the Milky Way (galactic plane) suggesting that if it represented reality, it probably only contained local stars. There were no grid lines."

(Soure)

Three stars in the clusters were unknown until 1969. No Astronomer on earth knew their position in 1963 giving Betty Hill tremendous credibility IMO.

Anyway, I've come across these fascinating videos that I think a lot will find interesting. So, first of all, Here is the hypnosis of Barney Hill.

Barney Hill Hypnosis Session 1..

Barney Hill Hypnosis Session 2..

Barney Hill Hypnosis Session 3..

Barney Hill Hypnosis Session 4..

Barney Hill Hypnosis Session 5..

Here are the "lost" Betty Hill tapes also...

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 1..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 2..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 3..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 4..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 5..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 6..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 7..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 8..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 9..

The Lost Betty Hill Tapes - Part 10..

Notable ATS threads on the subject.

- The Betty Hill Starmap - New insight - SpookyVince
- The Hill Abduction Case- Gazrok
- The Lost Betty Hill Interview *VIDEO* -


Rendlesham Forest UFO

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e05b50d1a6a0.gif[/atsimg]

This is one of the first cases I personally really tried to look into, particularly due to It's close proximity to me as well as the fascination and plausibility of It's "credentials". To sum It up in it's most simplest form, It's the tale of a consecutively 2 (maybe 3 if you believe Larry Warren - Which I do not) days worth of UFO sightings from Army personnel at RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge (Twin bases) base near Ipswich, England.

It's main sightings came from John Burroughs, a 19 yr old Airman First Class (A1C), along with Staff Sergeant (SSgt) Bud Parker (then known as Bud Steffens) and Staff Sergeant James W. Penniston (originally a skeptic of the object until he had seen it) whom were the first ones to sight the object, and then primarily by Lt. Colonel Halt on the second nights of events - where an audio tape was taken during the sightings detailing what the men were going through, what they could see and the erratic behavior of the surrounding animals.

On the first night, after seeing the strange object seemingly coming from the nearby forest (Hence the name of the case), they set out to investigate It. Burroughs and Penniston going into the woods while an individual named as Cabansag whom went with them (due to Bud refusing to do so), staying at the tree line to act as a sort of relay for the radio communication.

Upon eventually getting close to the object Burroughs reports:

"It was like a weird feeling, like everything seemed slower than you were actually doing and stuff", said Burroughs.

"no landing gear was apparent, but it seemed like it was on fixed legs. I walked around the craft, and finally, I walked right up to the craft. I noticed the fabric of the shell was like a smooth, opaque, black glass. The bluish lights went from black to grey to blue. I was pretty much confused at that point. I kept trying to put this in some kind of frame of reference, trying to find some logical explanation as to what this was and what was going on. It was dead silent. No animals were even making noise anymore. The nearer we got to that thing the more uneasy I felt...it was as if I was moving in slow motion."

Penniston, who brought his notebook expecting to make notes of a downed aircraft as this was what was originally suspected, allegedly wrote this down too:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aee6098213e1.jpg[/atsimg]

Some of the symbols that were allegedly seen on the side and drawn up by Pennsiton:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/527a2d78c820.jpg[/atsimg]

Upon touching the craft, the bright light they had previously seen again went on subsequently growing brighter and brighter with each passing second. Burroughs and Penniston not fully aware of what was happening suddenly jumped back at this point,

The white light flooding out from the top of the unknown object was almost blinding. "The craft moved up off the ground, about three feet, still with absolutely no sound. It started to move slowly, weaving back through the trees at a very slow pace, maybe a half a foot per second.

It took about a couple of minutes for it to maneuver itself back to a distance of about 100 to 150 feet, then it rose up just over the trees, about 200 feet high. There was a momentary pause and then literally with the blink of an eye it was gone. All with no sound. That still boggles my mind"

(Source)

Here are plaster cats of the surrounding area, one which was clearly damaged, particuarly the sides of trees.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fa254d3c04cb.jpg[/atsimg]




The night after, the light was seemingly back again. This time spotted by many different personnel at the base. Those whom went out to investigate report this to Charles Halt:

[Englund] came in and he was quite shaken and insisted upon speaking to myself and the base commander [Colonel Conrad] about a matter of utmost urgency. He said, "it's back" and we all looked at each other , "what's back" I said and he said, "the UFO is back!."

(Source)

Holt determined to put an 'end to the nonsense' then decided the best thing to do was assemble a small team and go into the woods and investigate it himself properly. He then sent Englund back to base to get some supplies etc. and then one of the most fascinating Ufology investigations began.

Upon arriving close to the location, at which point a fair amount of military personnel were present bringing supplies etc., animals were running around again much like the previous night, they seemingly was spooked by something in the woods again. It was a state of confusion.

On their search however, they came across what appeared to be a landing site after seeing strange lights again very much like the previous night. The surrounding area had suffered the same type of damage and again there was 3 strange marks in the frozen ground all the same size and length. It was then later confirmed that this was certainly a different landing site to the one the night before. The object definitely looks like it came back to a different area of the woods the night after.

"we got the radiac instruments out, we were taking readings and while we were doing this, the police lieutenant said 'look!'.

It was a strange glowing object, it appeared to be 100-200 metres away. I couldn't explain it. It was moving behind the pine trees, zig-zagging around it kind of winked at us."

(Source)

They eventually came across the object again, this time merely sitting in a field:

"we're verging the fence line, the object continues to move through the trees, it proceeds a bit, goes out across the farmer's field, to the left of the farmers house and appears to be shedding molten metal, it's dripping off it.
It pulsated, although it were an eye winking at you and around the edges, it appeared to have molten metal dripping off it, just like falling to the ground, but I didn't see any evidence of anything on the ground. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing, none of us could."

(Source)

Much more activity at this point ensued, but towards the end of the sighting, the strangest occurence of all happened. At one point the object emitting a strange beam of light to the ground after shooting up into the air.
Here is a quick transcript from the Halt Tape:

Lt. Colonel Halt: 3.15: Now we've got an object about ten degrees directly south...

Sgt. Nevilles: There's one to the left

Lt. Colonel Halt: 10 degrees off the horizon, and the ones to the north are moving, one's moving away from us.
Sgt. Nevilles: It's moving out fast

Lt. Colonel Halt: They're moving out fast.

Sgt. Ball: There's one on the right chasing away too.

Lt. Colonel Halt: Yeah, they're both heading north. H..h...here he comes from the south; he's coming in toward us now!
Sgt. Ball: [SNIP].

Lt. Colonel Halt: Now were observing what appears to be a beam coming down to the ground!

Sgt. Ball: ...Colours...[SNIP]

Lt. Colonel Halt: This is unreal!

Lt. Colonel Halt: 3.30: And the objects are still in the sky, although the one to the south looks like it's losing a little bit of altitude. We're turning around and heading back toward the base. The object to the...the object to the south is still beaming down lights to the ground.

[Break in tape]
Lt. Colonel Halt: 0:400 Hours one object still hovering over the Woodbridge base at about 5-10 degrees off the horizon. Still moving erratic and similar lights beaming down as earlier.

Here is the entire Halt Tape:

Google Video Link

Here are the full witness statements from the main men involved with the sightings of this UFO

Notable ATS threads on the subject.

- The Rendlesham Forest UFO - What really Happened? - Rising Against (Me)

- The Case for Rendlesham - Gazrok

- Rendlesham Incident: A Test of Virtual Reality Projectors (Jacques Vallee) - Pimander

- The Phoenix Lights

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cdf91cc361a6.jpg[/atsimg]

March 13, 1997. On a clear day over Phoenix, as well as Arizona and Parts of Mexico, a fascinating series of sightings in the sky occurred. Sightings of objects like in the above image, as well as parades of low flying, mile wide v-shaped formations of orbs and strange silent crafts. The lights were seen by over an estimated,10,000 individuals in total and is quite possible one of the most famous UFO cases in history, Imo.

There was seemingly 2 separate events seen also. The first of which being thre V shaped UFO's primarily over Arizona - starting at about 8:15 over Prescott. See at the South of Tucson by 8:45.

Proponents of two separate events propose that the first event still has no provable explanation, but that some evidence exists that the lights were in fact airplanes. According to an article by reporter Janet Gonzales that appeared in the Phoenix New Times, videotape of the v shape shows the lights moving as separate entities, not as a single object; a phenomenon known as illusory contours can cause the human eye to see unconnected lines or dots as forming a single shape.

Mitch Stanley, an amateur astronomer, observed the lights using a Dobsonian telescope outfitted with a TELEVUE 32mm Plössl eyepiece, which produces 43x magnification. After observing the lights, he told his mother, who was present at the time, that the lights were aircraft.[17] According to Stanley, the lights were quite clearly individual airplanes; a companion who was with him recalled asking Stanley at the time what the lights were, and he said, "Planes".

The send were somewhat more peculiar. Reason being, It was this sightings which was recorded more so than the first, and It was these images which were aired through documentaries and they are the ones which have literally forced people to remember this case.

Here's a nice trailer for a documentary which summaries what went on:



Here's another nice summary of the events and possible explanations also:

- The Phoenix Lights Event

- Lights on Moving Craft

- Orbs

- Flare Theory

- Top Secret Military Craft/Blimp

- Cessnas Flying In Formation

- Helicopters In Formation

- Stealth B2 Bombers Flyover

- Military Hoax Atmospheric Phenomenon

- Ball Lighning

- Swamp Gas

- Meteors

- Mass Hallucination

- Mass Hoax Conspiracy

- Weather Balloons

- A Flock Of Birds

- Final Conclusions

- Symington Saw UFO!

Must See Videos on the Phoenix Lights
Notable ATS threads on the subject.

The Phoenix Lights Case - In Depth - Gazrok

Obviously there is many many MANY more enlightening and mysterious cases, these are merely some of the most fascinating for me.



This has been an interesting thread to write. I find myself after looking and reading everything still not really coming to a conclusive opinion on whether we have been visited or not, not that this feels like a waste of time in the slightest or anything lie that, although the discussion on some of the most interesting sightings I have come across does make It difficult to say for definite we have not been contacted/visited.

But I still find It hard to conclusively say, given the amount of evidence for such a thing, that we have been visited. by extraterrestrial life. I certainly don't think we can say we haven't though, but It's just difficult to conclusively say we have for definite.

That being so, assuming some intelligence has traveled through space, and is here, the question begs, what could they want? Why would they be here? Resources, war, education, who knows. The possibilities are seemingly endless.

Anyway, I hope anyone who has read has this thread indeed managed to come to a conclusion for themselves, even If I myself struggled to. Bearing that in mind, I do have to say thank you to all who took the time to read this thread - I admit, It may have been slightly too long, but I felt like I had a lot to share, all of which was important and or interesting in my eyes at least.

And now, I'd really love to hear any thoughts, positive or negative, on anything I brought up in this thread...

Thank you ATS..

Dude this is to god damn large. We already know alien's exist you spent so much time on this yet! Well thanks anyway
S&F

reply to post by foreshadower99


..It's called wanting to contribute to what I feel is a great site.

Anyway, do you have any thoughts on anything I brought up here out of curiosity?

WOW your gonna make the recent guy with the amazing well put together thread about human evolution feel real bad about now. Well done it will take hours to go through this in full, I will be back...obviously flag for you

reply to post by Rising Against


Very nice work dude, I am making my way through it...but damn you! I just posted a thread of similar length not long ago and it's getting little attention.

reply to post by WhizPhiz




Oh, my baaad!

I've not even been following the boards all that much lately tbh. Feel free to link it though. I'm sure I, and others could benefit from it.

Excellent thread mate ... i will have a good read rite now

Awesome thread, Rising Against.

I only have a few thoughts so I thought I'd reply.

1. Even if there was intelligent life, or microbes, in the universe, the time it would take to send/receive information is nearly impossible to overcome. The distance between any given system and our own is so enormous, by the time even the light from their star gets to us, they could've been thriving and dead.
Millenia.
2. Being that these planets are so far away, would only lead to one simple thought.
Yes there was life. But by the time we hear their 'signal', they probably already expired.
It takes hundreds, if not millions of years for the light from their sun/star to reach us.
You know how many life forms could've existed in that time frame?!

I am a believer of simple life forms, yes.
But anything intelligent would have to been eons ahead of us in technology.
Something I just can't wrap my brain around now.
Because if they were similar to us, they wouldn't have the technology, either.
Or they would have already been extinct, evolved or here...


Either way, nicely done.

2 thumbs up!!

reply to post by Rising Against


I'll tell you what I found to be the funniest aspect of the Phoenix Lights case: first they try to shrug it off like everyone who saw it was insane, even bringing out this guy in an alien suit, saying "we have the culprit right here" or something along those stupid lines. But then later, Governor Fife Symington, the same guy who tried the make a mockery of the whole thing, comes out and admits even he thought it was an alien craft when he saw it.

Feel free to link it though

Oh, but I already have. It's in my signature.

reply to post by havok


Thanks for that post havoc!

Food for thought which is what I really want here.

One thing I will mention though, is that personally, I’ve always asked myself that if there is indeed life out there, somewhere which IMO, there more likely is. How do we know that they can't travel here with ease? How do we know that they aren't already here but are just not visible? How do we know how they came to be? How do we know they haven't already been here? (These are Rhetorical btw. )

The answer is we don't know. You see, assuming Intelligent Life is out there somewhere, we have absolutely no idea about them in anyway what so ever. We don't know what they could want, what they could need, how advanced they could be, what there capabilities are.

So, IMO, It's a good point you made when you said "Being that these planets are so far away, would only lead to one simple thought.
Yes there was life. But by the time we hear their 'signal', they probably already expired.", But in reality, we have absolutely no idea about them to suggest that they can expire, or if they can potentially travel long distances with ease or anything else for that matter.

Possibilities are endless It would seem. At least until one parks on the whitehouse Lawn and tells us about themselves..

Just my opinion of course and don't get me wrong, I do like and admire your train of thought, but the unknown is just that, an unknown.

reply to post by Rising Against


Lovin the thread dude as I did the one you made a long time ago. The one about the abductions and we then brought up the Allagash abductions.

Anyways I was wondering about your thoughts on Aurora Texas.

Excellent thread! Really well laid out, with lots of great info. I'm familiar with a good bit of what you've presented here, but there's still plenty for me to look over.

At this time, there's really very little here that I can take issue with. I have my doubts about the B&B Hill case, but there's some stuff there that still makes me wonder. Other than that, I'll have to read up on the stuff I'm not familiar with to see how I feel about it. The other sightings you've referenced are some of the best cases I've seen in a field that often makes no sense.

It's always made sense to me that we can't be the only "intelligent" life going. I can't prove it, of course, it just seems logical that "we are not alone".

Again, well done. I think the best thing is that you present everything yet draw no definite conclusions from it. That's pretty much where I'm at on the subject. Lots of suggestive evidence, no definite answers.

Damn fine job!

reply to post by metalholic

Anyways I was wondering about your thoughts on Aurora Texas.

Hey there again!

Well, thanks for your post and I'm not going to lie to you here (I'm not afraid to admit it, lol.), but I've actually never really heard of that case tbh. Until now anyway.
I find I'm still something of a newbie to UFO cases you see.

I'll 100% look into it more though and get back to you. In the meantime, I really do hope that someone who does know a fair bit about this case will comment!

I'm sure It's fascinating.

Thanks for the effort you're putting into opening up a debate, that is a lot of information and it's going to take some time for me to pour through it. I'm very much interested in having a serious debate/information sharing session with more than myself (lol). Too often on forums like this things drop into semantics and wars with pseudo-skeptics and, not to offend anyone but, the harder to digest topics. S+F

reply to post by Kali74

I'm very much interested in having a serious debate/information sharing session with more than myself (lol).

Agreed. We're all here to learn after all. Too often a thread is degraded to mindless posts and mindless points of views backed up with nothing of value. All I want to see is an intelligent discussion for once. It's the reason for being a member here.

reply to post by Kali74

that is a lot of information and it's going to take some time for me to pour through it

Oh,and don't forget, this thread has been split up into sections (see the guide towards the beginning). I did that because I knew it was a long thread and I didn't want people to feel as though they had to read what doesn't interest them.

Originally posted by subject x
I have my doubts about the B&B Hill case...

I'm usually not one to quote myself, but Rising Against asked me if I could expand on this comment, so I'll try to lay out a couple of things that give me pause.

In large part, my doubts are based on the whole "hypnotic regression" aspect. I have a lot of trouble accepting that results of such "therapy" can be considered valid. It's way to easy for so called "repressed" or "screened" memories to actually be constructed/suggested while under hypnosis, either accidentally or on purpose. This in itself gives me enough reason to doubt the veracity of these "memories". I'm aware that many people believe otherwise, or at least think that "benefit of the doubt" should be given. I, however, expect a little more from my "tools", and in such a case, hypnosis has to be considered a tool. If I had a measuring tape that sometimes gave accurate measurements and sometimes didn't, I certainly wouldn't try to build a house using it. I doubt I'd even keep it my toolbox (except maybe as a novelty, something to mess with the new guy).

That being said, Dr. Simon, the psychiatrist who treated the Hills had doubts of his own.

In the words of Dr Simon, a prominent Boston psychiatrist that treated the Hills "People do not necessarily tell the factual truth while they are under hypnosis - all they tell is what they believe to be the truth." It was his opinion that Betty Hill made the whole thing up and only under hypnosis was she able to convince her husband that it had happened.

s ource

Now, if the guy who was instrumental in bringing out these memories (as I understand it) had reason to doubt them, that gives me even more reason doubt them, too. Also mentioned is the fact that Betty had no recollection of anything extraordinary until after undergoing hypnosis, and neither did Barney. From the above source:

Her husband, on the other hand, didn't think anything unusual had happened, and only after six months of "therapy" was he ready to admit he'd been taken aboard a spaceship.

It's things like this that make me doubt the veracity of "hypnotic regression", and, by extension, Betty and Barney's story.

Another point of interest is the episode when Betty took some folks to visit the "landing site" some time after her "abduction". Reportedly she said she could see a spacecraft and it's crew in the area, although none of the people she was with could see anything of the sort. That strikes me as being rather absurd, and causes me to further doubt Betty's tale.

One of the things in regards to the Hill case that convinces a lot of people is Betty's "star map". On the face of it, this seems pretty exceptional evidence. It's hard to argue unless you happen to know a lot (and I do mean a lot) about astronomy. I am certainly not one of those people. If I were going to listen to people's opinions as relating to the map, I'd probably want to listen to folks like these:

Jeffrey L. Kretsch, Carl Sagan, Steven Soter, Robert Schaeffer, Marjorie Fish, David Saunders, and Michael Peck.

These folks, who are a lot more knowledgeable than I, discuss the "star map" here. It's a pretty long read, and gets pretty technical, but the basic gist is some of them agree with the star map, and some don't. Again, I'm no astronomer, but if people like these, as educated in the field as they are, can't agree on it's accuracy, I think it should probably be viewed with at least some skepticism, and certainly not pointed at as undeniable proof. (I'd imagine that this source was also cribbed from Gazrok's thread. There's a lot of really good info in that thread, and credit should be given)

So those are some of the things that cause me to doubt the Hill's story. Does any of it prove that it didn't happen? No, of course not. It just gives me enough doubt to keep the Hill case in the "grey basket" and reserve final judgement on it until more evidence comes to light, which will probably never happen as the Hills have since both passed on

I find some major inconsistencies between barney hills hypnosis and betty hills interview.Let me start off by saying i never knew betty hill chewed tobacco.Anyway, during betty hills interview,she says that the aliens who abducted are not a threat.According to barneys hypnosis,he is terrified,looking for his gun,and is afraid of the nazis who abducted him.Which one is it?If barney is terrified and crying, i see that as a clear threat.If betty hill was abducted by a group of her neighbors,would she deem them as a threat.I call bs on this whole claim.2 people,who were married would have the same general feelings about the event..

Fife Symingtons video was rather disturbing .He says what he saw was probably an alien spacecraft,but he didnt want to say that because people would have an emotional reaction.Translation--I better not say what I think or I will get fired.What happened to the great forefathers of this country who called it like they saw it?They live in our memory forever,God bless America!