While writing my third installment of Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria MythsPart-1andPart-2 the question of Modern mans DNA kept creeping in. It's hard to
explore ancient mans journey across the planet in his drive out of Africa without discussing the latest DNA evidence. It appears that we as modern man
are genetically more complicated and diverse than first thought. Before we begin let me make this abundantly clear right off that bat.
This is not an attempt at proving any sort of racial superiority through Eugenics etc. I'm pretty darned sure that by the time some finish reading
this they'll have their noses bent out of place. So be it. I'm going to take a neutral stance and just provide theory and conjecture supported by both
FACTS and Circumstantial evidence. You decide for yourselves.
In other words if you come looking for a fight about racial superiority you've come to the wrong shop my brother...
Let's begin. All our troubles started with this guy...
[wise man or knowing man][/align]
And his wife.
We will call her Eve.
Now supposedly as the story goes they and their offspring ventured out of Africa at or about 200,000 BC and with successive generations moved out
across the globe all the way to South America at or around 30,000 to 15,000 BC. How do we know? Well apparently every Man, Woman and Child alive today
have squirreled away in their genetic makeup their genes...
I personally have no argument against that. But the question arises that if we are all his descendants then why don't we all look African? This isn't
a simple question. There are many variables. Such as Genetic isolation after migration, Environmental and Nutritional factors ad infinitum...
When I was in school we learned that modern man came out of Africa then went into Europe and Competed with Neanderthal for food and resource. Then
developed the Clovis point. Neanderthal being slow, dumb and clumsy it was an easy victory and they Died out.
End of story!
Can we go home now?
Now with the advancements of Genetic mapping and DNA lineage tracing etc. We now know that Modern man in almost every part of the world has
Neanderthal DNA. Notice how I said "Almost"? Well as it turns out a large percentage of "Africans" do not show Neanderthal DNA. I found that
very interesting and sent me on a journey into how this could have been afflicting modern man with regards to Genetic Abnormalities
Researchers compared the Neanderthal genome with the genomes of five living people: one San from southern Africa, one Yoruba from West Africa, one
Papua New Guinean, one Han Chinese and one French person. Scientists discovered that 1% to 4% of the latter three DNA samples is shared with
Neanderthals — proof that Neanderthals and early modern humans interbred.
The absence of Neanderthal DNA in the genomes of the two present-day Africans indicates that interbreeding occurred after some root population of
early modern humans left Africa but before the species evolved into distinct groups in Europe and Asia.
I've always wondered how is it if we all came out of Africa why did we all end up looking different.---- So now we know that there is a bit of
Neanderthal and possibly others in all of us and that it may show up every so often in various ways. [ I'll be elaborating on that possible
scenario a bit later ]
First I think we need to do away with once and for all the notion that Neanderthal was simply an apish brute. This apparently has been carried over
from the Early days of Darwinism. It seems that many in the academic European circles were trying to find the "Missing Link" and unfairly
Neanderthal was shoe horned into that possible link. He has often been portrayed as a dumb lumbering oaf. Looking at the following misrepresentation I
certainly wouldn't want to call him my kin...
Over time his appearance has changed a bit. To be honest the next representation of Neanderthal looks less apish. Which is a good thing. I think we as
modern man need to reevaluate our idea of him and others in our possible extend "Hominid Family" and realize that they were conceivably more human
than we may have first thought. As a matter of fact I can see a lot of My uncle in him not to mention our local pizza guy...Mario?
Neanderthal and [soon to be discussed] other pre-homo-sapiens were not "Primitive Humans" IMHO. They supposedly left Africa anywhere from between
400,000 to 1,000,000 BC that's about 200,000 to 800,000 or more years earlier than "Modern man" had. They migrated into regions we hadn't ventured yet
at least not for another few hundred thousand years later. They dealt with, survived and flourished in those tough environments. They went toe to toe
with the Mega-fauna in their locations and dealt with all the other nasty things life could throw at them during their lives. They were some seriously
• For starters, massive, broad shoulders are indicated by a scapular breadth that is about 8% larger than their modern human contemporaries.
(Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans did live side by side for several millennia.)
• Muscle attachments for the pecs were enormous, up to twice the size of today’s average.
• Neanderthals had shorter, wider humeri (upper arms), which combined with the shoulders, suggests substantial rotator cuff muscularity. And, get
this; the bones in their forearms were actually bowed from muscles that must have powered a grip that could crush stone.
• All of this upper body musculature was anchored on a solid foundation of massive quads that specialized in explosive power and side-to-side
"This would have made Neanderthal fingers and thumbs upwards of twice the strength of modern humans" Lumely-Woodyear 1973;
"Thus Neanderthals were probably better at throwing (Debenath and Tournepiche 1992) than their modern contemporaries"
Who were our other DNA contributors after we left Africa? Well let me introduce you to two of the recently discovered contributors. The first one you
The first proto-Neanderthal traits appeared in Europe as early as 600,000–350,000 years ago. Proto-Neanderthal traits are occasionally grouped to
another phenetic 'species', Homo heidelbergensis, or a migrant form, Homo rhodesiensis. By 130,000 years ago, complete Neanderthal characteristics
had appeared. These characteristics then disappeared in Asia by 50,000 years ago and in Europe by about 30,000 years ago, with no further individuals
having enough Neanderthal morphological traits to be considered as part of Homo neanderthalensis
Here is a recent article on Neanderthal DNA. Apparently their skin color as well had as vast of variations as modern man. It does point however that
the evidence so far indicate that both Modern man and Neanderthal came to these variations independently. For me the Verdict is still out on that one.
Ancient DNA Reveals That Some
Neanderthals Were Redheads
Ancient DNA suggests that at least some Neanderthals had red hair and pale skin. Neanderthals' pigmentation may even have been as varied as that of
modern humans, and that at least 1 percent of Neanderthals were likely redheads. (Credit: 'Illustration by Knut Finstermeier; Neanderthal
reconstruction by the Reiss-Engelhorn-Museum Mannheim')
The mtDNA of the Denisova hominin is distinct from the mtDNAs of Neanderthals and modern humans. In December 2010, an international team of
scientists determined the sequence from the nuclear genome of this group (known as the Denisovans) from this finger bone. According to their analysis,
this group shares a common origin with the Neanderthals and interbred with the ancestors of modern Melanesians
So we now know that Neanderthal had contributed and now we find that Denisovans also had a hand in our makeup. The Denisovans are interesting to say
the least. They are cousins of Neanderthal yet were distinct. We see their contributions with the Melanesians...
Melanesia is a subregion of Oceania extending from the western end of the Pacific Ocean to the Arafura Sea, and eastward to Fiji. The region comprises
most of the islands immediately north and northeast of Australia. The name Melanesia (from Greek: µ??a? black; ??s??, islands) was first used by
Jules Dumont d'Urville in 1832 to denote an ethnic and geographical grouping of islands distinct from Polynesia and Micronesia.....
There was probably a long period of interaction that resulted in many complex changes in genetics, languages, and culture. It is possible that from
this area a very small group of people (speaking an Austronesian language) departed to the east to become the forebears of the Polynesian people. This
finding is, however, contradicted by a study published by Temple University finding that Polynesians and Micronesians have little genetic relation to
Melanesians; instead, they found significant distinctions between groups living within the Melanesian islands. Genome scans show Polynesians have
little genetic relationship to Melanesians.
Now what about some of the other interesting hominids? Well so far we haven't found any connections and we may not. However What if we suppose they
had contributed. This makes for some very interesting speculation and would solve many mysteries in Modern mans journey.
Homo erectus pekinensis
Homo erectus pekinensis
Franz Weidenreich considered Peking Man as a human ancestor and specifically an ancestor of the Chinese people, as seen in his original
multiregional model of human evolution in 1946. Chinese writings on human evolution in 1950 generally considered evidence insufficient to
determine whether Peking Man was ancestral to modern humans. One view was that Peking Man in some ways resembled modern Europeans more than modern
Asians. However, this debate of the origin has sometimes become complicated by issues of Chinese nationalism. By 1952, however, Peking Man had
been considered by some to be a direct ancestor of modern humans. Some paleontologists have noted a perceived continuity in skeletal
OK so Peking mans history, possible contribution and genetic lineage is still unknown. Would it be too far off the mark to hypothesis that he may have
bestowed his genes to the pot as well? There are many variation in regards to appearance and height etc. I see Peking man as more Neanderthal looking
than primitive ape-man.
("Flores Man", nicknamed "hobbit") is a possible species, now extinct, in the genus Homo. The remains were discovered in 2004 on the island of Flores
in Indonesia. Partial skeletons of nine individuals have been recovered, including one complete cranium (skull). These remains have been the
subject of intense research to determine whether they represent a species distinct from modern humans, and the progress of this scientific controversy
has been closely followed by the news media at large. This hominin is remarkable for its small body and brain and for its survival until relatively
recent times (possibly as recently as 12,000 years ago). Recovered alongside the skeletal remains were stone tools from archaeological horizons
ranging from 94,000 to 13,000 years ago.
Now what do we make of this guy? When I first read about him. I couldn't help but think about Pygmies. Now with supposedly everybody and their
brothers heading "Out of Africa" did this guys family head back into Africa? There seems to be some rather interesting circumstantial evidence. It's
not hard to imagine that some of his DNA had influenced physical characteristics in the region. South East Asians on the whole are relatively shorter
than those from other locations on the planet. Interesting to note that Pygmies also show in South America. Ancient prehistoric connection or just a
result of nutrition and environmental adaptations?
Genetically, the western Mbenga pygmies are extremely divergent from all other human populations, suggesting they have an ancient indigenous lineage.
They represent the most ancient divergence right after that of Khoisan's. The overall genetic picture suggests that the original Mbenga population,
possessing Y-chromosome haplogroup B and mtDNA haplogroup L1, was slightly influenced by gene flow from Bantus. The closest relatives of eastern
Mbuti pygmies appear to be the Hadzabe, who live in the savannas east of the forest and were quite short in stature, before heavy recent intermarriage
with their taller neighbors.
There are also pygmies in Australia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Papua New Guinea, and Brazil.
Dawn of Modern-mans journey
So what does the genetic record show us? Well apparently set before "Modern-man aka Homo-Sapiens" there were older lines of humanoids that preceded
our exodus out of Africa. These older closely human genetic lines were better suited IMHO for their environments. Modern mans great migration wasn't
accomplished in one or two generations. I think Modern Academia should stop being "Marveled" at the speed and distances modern man spread. I think it
went more along the lines of interbreeding with the already in place older lines.
This could be why there is such a diverse spectrum in eye and hair color, not to mention physical build, appearance and height among modern humans.
How about this for a possible scenario. As modern man left Africa in his great migration he swapped DNA with those potentially older lines. Generation
after generation of breeding amongst themselves as the "Newer lines" of nomadic herdsmen traversed back and forth across the great Eurasian continent.
Maybe why the Australian Aboriginals and others in the region look very "Africanized" Is it possible that a second or third exodus out of Africa such
as Coastal Migration occurred that bypassed a mixture of some of the more Northern older lineages? I think so.
DNA evidence linking Indian tribes
to Australian Aboriginal people supports the theory humans arrived in Australia from Africa via a southern coastal route through India, say
researchers. The research, lead by Dr Raghavendra Rao from the Anthropological Survey of India, is published in the current edition of BMC
One theory is that modern humans arrived in Australia via an inland route through central Asia but Rao says most scientists believe modern humans
arrived via the coast of South Asia. Skeletal remains, dating back between 40-60,000 years from Lake Mungo in New South Wales, also support the theory
that modern human arrived in Australia at least as far back as this, he says.
In the end what does it matter? We are all now "Modern Humans" Well for me [and I could be wrong in my assumptions I'm not a geneticist] but it
answers some basic fundamental questions in my mind as to why we are so diverse in appearance as a race. Is it so hard to believe that as we migrated
across the globe that as we went we picked up genes from those older lines?
Animation showing possible DNA mixture
Why are they no longer with us?
A few years back I read a book called Guns, Germs, and Steel. Written by Jared Diamond.
In his book he described in one section what happened in the "New World" as Europeans moved across the globe bringing with them their technology and
more importantly their Germs. Those Germs were infinitely more destructive than their steel or gunpowder. Huge swaths of Native Americans North, South
and Central were wiped out because of them. Only those that were genetically resilient enough survived. Was this simply history repeating itself? One
could imagine that during this trek out of Africa a hundred thousand years previously Homo Sapien not only picked up the older genetic material as he
migrated but also brought with him Germs that the other older lines were not prepared to deal with and they were wiped out? Only those who had already
breed with Homo Sapien survived the possible great die off.
Guns, Germs and Steel Part 1 of 18
Of course this isn't the end of the story. Modern man has been migrating all across the globe and we are now more than ever intertwined and most if
not all of us are all related closer now than we were back when we first moved out across the globe. It truly was a remarkable journey. Hopefully I
have not offended too many people. I know the topic of origins and race are very touchy topics with some. This wasn't intended to offend anybody but
rather to put forth another possible scenario of our Human developmental heritage....
As always have a great day..
edit on 25-2-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)
Whoa Slayer you never cease to amaze. And considering the price of admission even more nutritional value. I can sincerely appreciate the amount of
work that went into this. From the cogent and thought provoking premise to the feature rich erudite links. Just Wow.
I realize you don't due this for the glory but I feel gypped giving only a single Star:
I can't even muster a worthy reply I'm in such awe but only to ask and exposed my utter ignorance. I've heard that Human DNA contains something like
7 or 8 potential connection points on the double helix and that only 2 are connected. Any truth to that? (If I've made any sense) Something about
edit on 25-2-2011 by kinda kurious because: (no reason given)
I think this presents so many variables that pertain to variables. without mentioning the ones that biblical scholars might impose on your hypothesis.
The one fact that no one can get around is that mankind has amnesia for some reason. What puts this block in our memory of origin? Answer that and I
believe you will answer many questions with one push of the broom. Why don't we remember our origins? Or for that matter where are we even going?
You slay me again.. Excellent thread.
edit on 25-2-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)
I'll be watching this one. Should get heated.
edit on 25-2-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)
I agree that it is likely a combination of interbreeding and adapting to new climates that caused the differences sometimes referred to as
"racial". We all ended up one massive species of six billion some apes conquering our world... what are the odds? One of my favorite genetic facts,
one I've been mentioning here on ATS for years, is the discovery of certain genes that help the Tibetan people thrive at high altitudes.
Your threads never cease to impress Slayer Awesome work! Just like that find in Israel could open up another chapter in this debate if proven
valid. What are your thoughts on more possible finds of unknown hominids? Especially in light of two mentioned on your thread are very recent
Excellent, well done. Like the premise. While it makes perfect sense to me that the mingling of DNA took place over time, given the circumstances
governing migration, I do look forwards to those who may present an alternate take on this given the obvious conflict with biblical theory....
It is a topic that has always fascinated me all my life.
It's a hard topic to discuss sometimes with some without causing conflict with long held beliefs
Couldn't of said it better myself. Finding the truth of our origin should be the number one priority. As technology gets better over the years, we
just might be able to crack the secrets of the past and learn how we came into being. $&F
Once again you have a well put together thread that puts many of the other less researched ones to shame.
This is very plausible to me, as why wouldn’t they have interbred as long as they were compatible for doing so. It would definitely explain the many
differences in hair and skin, not just in coloring but in some skin being more sensitive, smoother, etc and some hair being thicker, kinkier or
I think you've made the subject accessible and highlighted how fascinating the human journey has been without getting all mystical or saying
aliens did it. Too many people get scared off by the technical lingo in the research and who can blame them?
Others just have a problem with 'science' and think it's all smoke and mirrors to deceive and confuse.
At the heart of it all, serious research is done across the world and they're just looking to make sense of it all and fill in the blanks. As you
point out, we've come a long, long way from seeing Neanderthals as dumb knuckle-draggers. We've also come far from seeing ourselves as some kind of
pinnacle. Instead, the guys doing the research have had to keep tracking a moving target...
Instead of a single wave of 'Out of Africa' migrations, there's a newer model that suggests multiple waves going in and out of Africa over
thousands of years. In this light, Neanderthal and Denisovan genes live within us because they were a part of our ancestry despite geographical
locations or distinctions. We aren't a direct lineage reaching back in time to a single ancestral group or population.
Looking at the changes in theories of human origins over the last 10 years shows that they aren't done yet. The next few years could see a sea-change
in migration models and include diverse populations from earlier migrations. Dynamic stuff!
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