Out of body experiences just the product of a confused mind

Originally posted by hawkiye
Nor can they explain what keeps the planets in thier rotations.

This is where the conversation ends.

There's no point in trying to explain anything to you if you don't even have a fundamental understanding of accepted science.

Originally posted by PieKeeper

Originally posted by hawkiye
Nor can they explain what keeps the planets in thier rotations.

This is where the conversation ends.

There's no point in trying to explain anything to you if you don't even have a fundamental understanding of accepted science.

Key words are "accepted science" I know science thinks they understand how the planets are kept in thier rotations however it is just a theory, they cannot prove it. Just because something is accepted does not make it true. This type of thinking has actually held science back or it would be much further along then it is. So yeah I would say this is a good point to end the conversation

Originally posted by hawkiye
I know science thinks they understand how the planets are kept in thier rotations however it is just a theory, they cannot prove it.

You're kidding, right? We know exactly what keeps planets in their rotations. It's called gravity, and it's not "just a theory."

You shouldn't argue against science when you don't even understand it.

Originally posted by hawkiye
This type of thinking has actually held science back or it would be much further along then it is

Not at all. Science deals with the physical; what is able to be measured, tested, and observed. This is the only way we can actually learn about our reality and then apply that knowledge effectively.

~Wiki~

Description

Individuals who experience depersonalization feel divorced from their own personal physicality by sensing their body sensations, feelings, emotions and behaviors as not belonging to the same person or identity.[3] Often a person who has experienced depersonalization claims that life "feels like a movie" or that things seem unreal or hazy. Also, a recognition of self breaks down (hence the name). Depersonalization can result in very high anxiety levels, which further increase these perceptions.[4]

One way to describe the physical manifestation of the feeling is to compare it to a film technique called the vertigo shot or a dolly zoom. In this technique, the subject of the picture stays fixed within the shot while the surrounding background is pulled away, providing a sense of vertigo or detachment. People may perceive this feeling in a cyclical manner, where the feeling is experienced back-to-back in succession.[citation needed]

Prevalence

Depersonalization is the third most common psychological symptom, after feelings of anxiety and feelings of depression.[5] Depersonalization is a symptom of anxiety disorders, such as panic disorder.[6] It can also accompany sleep deprivation (often occurring when suffering from jet lag), migraine, obsessive-compulsive disorder, stress, and anxiety; Interoceptive exposure is a non-pharmacological method that can be used to induce depersonalization.[7]

A study of undergraduate students found that individuals high on the depersonalization/derealization subscale of the Dissociative Experiences Scale exhibited a more pronounced cortisol response. Individuals high on the absorption subscale, which measures a subject's experiences of concentration to the exclusion of awareness of other events, showed weaker cortisol responses.[8]

~Wiki~

Pretty common, don't doubt you can get to this point by way of meditation. No 7/11th dimension here, just good old depersonalization.

reply to post by PieKeeper

Science deals with the physical; what is able to be measured, tested, and observed. This is the only way we can actually learn about our reality and then apply that knowledge effectively.

Exactly which is why it is so absurd for science to pretend to understand the non-physical such as an out of body experience. I am also wondering what equipment was used to measure the gravity that keeps the planets in thier rotations...

Originally posted by hawkiye
Exactly which is why it is so absurd for science to pretend to understand the non-physical such as an out of body experience.

If out-of-body experiences are delusions created by the brain, as this study suggests, then we will be able to figure out how they occur.

Originally posted by hawkiye
I am also wondering what equipment was used to measure the gravity that keeps the planets in thier rotations...

Please, stop with the gravity. You're only discrediting yourself and derailing the topic by waving around your misunderstanding of basic physics.

reply to post by PieKeeper

Please, stop with the gravity. You're only discrediting yourself and derailing the topic by waving around your misunderstanding of basic physics.

Nice dodge since you can't answer the question. It must be really difficult for you to know that science does not know and understand everything you think it does. The fact is science has no way to measure the gravitational fields of each planet in relation to each other and the sun etc. So it remains an unproven theory.

Quantum physics is currently questioning the so called "laws of physics" you seem so attached to.

reply to post by Griffo


That relatively simple and narrowly focused experiment is interesting, but as the article says 10% of the population have experienced this sort of thing, and simple chance percentages alone suggest that this one cause isn't likely to be the full explanation for every incident that people claim to be OOBE. I'm not a big believer in the idea that people can go astralling around and visiting Jesus in the 43rd dimension for hangouts and a few laughs, but I'm also much more conservative in my assumptions than most of these hairbrained "scientists" who go running to the press with every drama-queen assertion over tiny indications that they get within a series of experiments. Christ, these guys could make you wonder if anything exists as real at all - and lots of folks on this board are living proof of that. It's gotten so bad that you can't even assert that you, yourself, exist anymore around ere without a Greek Chorus of monkeys trying to debunk your own existence. And, they do this as they respond to the posts that you are actually posting (as if that wasn't proof enough of your own existence - but then that's how insane things are now days)

It used to be that research was done carefully and patiently. If this article is factual in how this assertion was arrived at, then these guys (basically) took a weekend and got some people to become psychologically affected by clever perception tricks, and while it may be a cool thing to add to a video D&D game, it's not proof of anything at all. Certainly not something as potentially complicated as surviving a moment of physical crisis within the human brain, and how the resulting mind responds to that crisis with full sensory perception. Maybe the writer of the article just ran off to the site's editors with it and got green-lighted without the researchers knowing that their off-handed speculation would be published as "scientific discovery", but if not, then these boobs need to have their own heads examined. This is the kind of foolishness that wrecks professional careers in the real world.

No wonder people think that science is nothing more than religion without God. Lately, it's been just as childish.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Quantum physics is currently questioning the so called "laws of physics" you seem so attached to.

Theoretical Quantum Physics is a roomfull of idiots who haven't realized that particle-centric physics has always been a blind alley, and haven't the humility to be able to admit that they've finally run into the back wall with nowhere left to run. So they declare that physical reality has no properties at a certain size, which is pretty pathetic to assert that size changes the fundamentals of physical existence. But, they have letters after their names that they honestly believe proves more than that they were able to pass the final exams.

But go ahead and huff on that bowl all you want. No one will ever be affected by what you believe or disbelieve. Maybe your kids, but they won't ever make a difference in the world either. So have at your fantasy world. It's all the thrills that are left to you anyway.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Nice dodge since you can't answer the question. It must be really difficult for you to know that science does not know and understand everything you think it does. The fact is science has no way to measure the gravitational fields of each planet in relation to each other and the sun etc. So it remains an unproven theory.

It's not that I can't answer your question, it's that I shouldn't have to.

But if you really want your question answered, we'll start you out with something easy:

spaceplace.nasa.gov...

After you read that, you can probably move on to some harder material:

www.scientificamerican.com...

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by PieKeeper

Originally posted by hawkiye
Nor can they explain what keeps the planets in thier rotations.

This is where the conversation ends.

There's no point in trying to explain anything to you if you don't even have a fundamental understanding of accepted science.

Key words are "accepted science" I know science thinks they understand how the planets are kept in thier rotations however it is just a theory, they cannot prove it. Just because something is accepted does not make it true. This type of thinking has actually held science back or it would be much further along then it is. So yeah I would say this is a good point to end the conversation

Now I remember why I stopped visiting the Science and Technology forum. The amount of science ignorance here is simply astounding. Not that being ignorant is a bad thing, but when you have no desire to learn and promote this ignorance as some virtue among people who cling to a "science is biased" ideal, then yes it is bad. Yes science is biased, to reality, sorry about that. If you derive some method for accurately observing and making predictions on the non real (whatever the hell that is) then make it known please.

"Accepted Science" isn't what you think it is. Theories in science aren't the ones you come up with after a night of binge drinking. What's accepted has been observed, tested, and is demonstrable over and over and over and over...etc, in other words they are proven. You're right when you say something being accepted doesn't make it true, but for the level of certainty we have here on concepts like planetary orbits it does make them fact, sorry once again. The only type of thinking that has held back science is blind dismissal, which is exactly what i see every time i come here. "Scientists don't have a clue!"

You know we've discovered some pretty amazing patterns in the cosmos, they are called equations, and they work every stinking time. So do you actually want to know how things work, like how planets stay in orbit, or do you just want to believe your own superstitions? I'll let you decide, because ultimately it doesn't matter to me what you believe. Just don't think your beliefs grant you knowledge greater than what observation of reality has gotten us.

Originally posted by kaleshchand
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

This is exactly the type of data verification that is needed to prove OBEs either way. The ability to physically see/ hear/ etc what is impossible to do so from the current location of the physical presence. This is what scientists should be trying to do, not this stupid prop show.

This has been done repeatedly, science pretty much ignores it.

reply to post by NorEaster

Theoretical Quantum Physics is a roomfull of idiots who haven't realized that particle-centric physics has always been a blind alley, and haven't the humility to be able to admit that they've finally run into the back wall with nowhere left to run.

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. Others like you also said the world was flat. Man would never go to the moon, nor go past 60 miles an hour, and host of other things. Science measures the physical, the problem with people like you is you think reality is limited to the physical despite the inability of science to explain myriads of phenomena such as what animates the body etc. Then you try (and poorly I might add) to ridicule anything that does not reinforce your limited paradigm and inability to accept that science does not know all things.

But go ahead and huff on that bowl all you want. No one will ever be affected by what you believe or disbelieve. Maybe your kids, but they won't ever make a difference in the world either. So have at your fantasy world. It's all the thrills that are left to you anyway.

LOL! The only thing that has ever effected humanity in mass is the rebels, eccentrics, and dreamers who dared to challenge the the status quo orthodoxy of flat earthers such as yourself. Ignoring the drab ridicule and smug arrogance of fools while pressing on and changing the world despite all the nashing of teeth claiming they knew nothing! Tesla comes to mind among others...

reply to post by Stuffed

Yes science is biased, to reality, sorry about that. If you derive some method for accurately observing and making predictions on the non real (whatever the hell that is) then make it known please.

Thank you for illustrating so well the very limited view of those who think science knows all things. Science has discovered some wonderful things and will still discover more yet. However anyone who thinks reality is limited to the physical and all else is not real is either blind or not yet evolved enough to objectively observe the many unexplainable phenomena obviously beyond the physical, around and even in them, that science cannot explain. Gee you'd think those interested in discovery might wonder what animates the body with life, intelligence, thinks etc. But hey science cannot explain or measure it in the physical so it must not exist... Sigh!

Originally posted by hawkiye
Gee you'd think those interested in discovery might wonder what animates the body with life, intelligence, thinks etc.

I've already addressed this.

The brain is a network of neurons. We can measure brain activity using imaging techniques such as MRI. We don't have any reason to believe that consciousness is separated from the brain.

reply to post by PieKeeper

I've already addressed this.

The brain is a network of neurons. We can measure brain activity using imaging techniques such as MRI. We don't have any reason to believe that consciousness is separated from the brain.

And I have already debunked your address, but here we go again. So the thousands of people who were clinically dead with no brain activity yet reported out of body experiences, even to what the doctors or people were doing in the room, that they couldn't possibly have known (remember no brain activity). They experienced with meeting other beings and experiencing a whole other world beyond the physical with thier consciousness intact, and did I mention no brain activity so you can't say it was a hallucination. All that means nothing to you and gives you no reason to think consciousness can be separated from the brain? Thanks again for illustrating my point. Short sightedness indeed...

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by PieKeeper

 

I've already addressed this.

The brain is a network of neurons. We can measure brain activity using imaging techniques such as MRI. We don't have any reason to believe that consciousness is separated from the brain.

And I have already debunked your address, but here we go again. So the thousands of people who were clinically dead with no brain activity yet reported out of body experiences, even to what the doctors or people were doing in the room, that they couldn't possibly have known (remember no brain activity). They experienced with meeting other beings and experiencing a whole other world beyond the physical with thier consciousness intact, and did I mention no brain activity so you can't say it was a hallucination. All that means nothing to you and gives you no reason to think consciousness can be separated from the brain? Thanks again for illustrating my point. Short sightedness indeed...

edit on 20-2-2011 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

You haven't illustrated anything apart from extreme ignorance. You make claims, refuse to provide support for them, ridicule the opposition, and proceed to make another unfounded claim.

So please, when you speak of illustration and illustrating a message, put some substance in it to do the illustration. As you posted earlier, it's clear you don't fully comprehend your world, hey nothing wrong with that, in fact science doesn't understand all of it, but it is working towards understanding. What are you doing? The only thing I've seen you do is come out of the gate anti-science, and act as if your completely unfounded claim of the non-physical holds more weight than REALITY.

As it turns out, metaphysical claims still need to be justified...Hmm imagine that. Bringing up quantum mechanics just makes me wonder if you're purposefully trying to copy charlatans like Deepak Chopra.

reply to post by Stuffed

You haven't illustrated anything apart from extreme ignorance.

Speak for yourself. All you can do is throw insults it seems.

You make claims, refuse to provide support for them, ridicule the opposition, and proceed to make another unfounded claim.

Excuse me I don't recall you posting any support for your claims just insults and arrogance. Pot meet kettle.... Sigh!

I have posted several points to support what I say. Like the OBE's I described that your diatribe is in response to and you even quoted it. I noticed you avoided answering that in favor of insults...Sigh!

(nonsensical insults and accusations snipped for brevity) The only thing I've seen you do is come out of the gate anti-science, and act as if your completely unfounded claim of the non-physical holds more weight than REALITY.

Of course I am not anti science nor have I ever claimed the non physical holds more weight then so called reality. But nice try in attempting to falsely characterize my point of view. Argue with what I said not with what I have not said. I actually mentioned that science has discovered some wonderful things and will yet continue to do so. I have said the reality goes beyond the physical, you're free to disagree with that if you like, however that is short sighted and limited in my view.

As it turns out, metaphysical claims still need to be justified...Hmm imagine that. Bringing up quantum mechanics just makes me wonder if you're purposefully trying to copy charlatans like Deepak Chopra.

And many scientific claims still need to be justified too. I am merely suggesting that science by limiting itself to the physical is short sighted and has slowed its progress because of its unwillingness to go beyond this point. Science and metaphysics will one day come together despite the flat earthers. And of course you end with a bad attempt to indirectly call me a charlatan by associating me with someone you despise and think of as such.

Speaking of Chopra what have you done compared to Chopra? He is an endocrinologist who after seeing so many cancer patients die, thought there must be a better way and started treating cancer patients holistically with science, spiritually, and meditation, etc. He improved his patients survival rate by up to 40% if I remember correctly. He then started several cancer treatment centers that do this, and you call him a charlatan because he challenges your world view? I'm sorry but what is your contribution to humanity on the scale of Chopras again?

I am astounded by the amount of ignorance by the armchair scientists.

I myself have had an out of body experience on more than one occasion, does that make me delusional? am I insane, unfit for purpose? the answer is no. I am one of the lucky ones who has a decent job a loving family and I am in the position to actually give something back to society and help people.

I was on another site talking to a couple of member that post here and we were talking about issues surrounding this topic, we had the same old banter you guys are having here, i.e 'science can explain everything' as I opened up and started to describe my experiences in detail, that showed I was just a normal person and a family nothing strange about me just a regular jane doe, guess what, everyone that had all the answers previously were suddenly lost for words and because they didn't have the answers they ceased to come back and continue the thread. Its always the same with people who think they know everything.

I have met many many armchair scientists in my life and when I have shown them certain things and afterwards their whole life comes crashing around them "erm I can't believe it, I don't understand it, I mean.......how is it possible" always the same, this is why I partake very little in debates like these on ATS as its impossible to change the mind of others without physical tangible proof and many on ATS are not willing to open their minds to new possibilities.

The truth is science cannot answer everything. Logic can only be used once you know the parameters and the boundaries anything beyond them is a mystery and therefore, an open mind is needed in order to go beyond the limits.

4 oz is all it takes to understand, everything else is expended energy

Originally posted by hawkiye
So the thousands of people who were clinically dead with no brain activity yet reported out of body experiences, even to what the doctors or people were doing in the room, that they couldn't possibly have known (remember no brain activity). They experienced with meeting other beings and experiencing a whole other world beyond the physical with thier consciousness intact, and did I mention no brain activity so you can't say it was a hallucination. A

First, you need to define what you mean by "clinically dead with no brain activity," because actual brain death is irreversible. It's possible to have conditions that mimic brain death with little brain activity, and your brain still functions for an extremely short period of time after your other vitals cut out (heart beat). It is during this extremely short period of time that many people have "near death experiences," which are a result of the brain releasing chemicals upon the process of dying.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Excuse me I don't recall you posting any support for your claims just insults and arrogance. Pot meet kettle.... Sigh!

Tu Quoque or "You Too" fallacy.

Originally posted by hawkiye
I am merely suggesting that science by limiting itself to the physical is short sighted and has slowed its progress because of its unwillingness to go beyond this point. Science and metaphysics will one day come together despite the flat earthers.

Science is limited to the physical because that's what we can measure, observe, and test. Metaphysics isn't subject to scientific methods.

Originally posted by franspeakfree
I myself have had an out of body experience on more than one occasion, does that make me delusional? am I insane, unfit for purpose?

You aren't necessarily delusional or insane. And no one is claiming that you are unfit for purpose, which is an absurd statement.

What is being said is that your out-of-body experience could have been produced by your brain.

'agree with you as well. Those who have no experience with them...have no experience with them. Explanations and denials abound by those who have no experience.

For one thing...they are absolutely real and yes can be replicated by other means. But that does not invalidate or explain the original experience.

One whom has not "astrally projected" inwards or outwards...can only relate by means of say...'___' or other artificial substances. The true practitioner....does not need any such substances.