Gypsies: The Last Acceptable Form of Racism

reply to post by Jinglelord


Believe me, the removed post was a hate filled diatribe....

And as for the rest of us being bigoted, you are totally wrong. Like you say, you have no knowledge of the situation in the UK, so I will try and make it simple for you.

This is not a racial thing, all of these people are white UK residents, born and bred in this country, so we are not being racist, that's a contradiction.

You mentioned bikers, so let me give you an example, that maybe you can relate to (DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SAYING THAT BIKERS DO THIS, JUST USING IT AS EXAMPLE OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE); A group of bikers turn up and camp on some open ground outside your house, they are loud, they shout abuse at you, your kids, your neigbours, doesn't matter if they are young or old. Then they start to party, setting fire to things, blaring loud music, fighting etc til all hours in the morning. Eventually, a few days later, the police have moved them on, but the ground they were camped on is filled with rubbish, beer cans, human excrement, gas cannisters, burnt out furniture...you sigh and think, well they've gone and you clear it up, or you pay someone to clear it up.

Next month, a different group of bikers turn up and camp on the open ground, you think, oh well, hopefully this lot won't do the same thing...but they do, and it's a repeat of the above, end result after days of abuse and the end result is that you have another clean up job on your hands.

Next month another group of bikers turn up...As above...and the next month and the next month and so on until you have been putting up with different groups of bikers turning up and camping on the open ground outside your house and causing mayhem and destruction for years...What is your attitude going to be to bikers who turn up and camp on the open land outside your house from then on...They have all behaved in the same way, and you know that the next lot are going to be exactly the same.

However, you know a group of bikers who live in the town, they're decent folk, they keep themselves to themselves, they don't cause you any trouble and you have no problem with them, yes they're still bikers, but they don't camp outside people's houses causing problems.

And this is exactly the scenario we are talking about. I think everyone that has contributed a negative opinion to this thread has also said that there are two types of gypsy traveller, the ones that keep themselves to themselves, you never hear or see them and you don't have a problem with them. Then there are the troublemakers, the ones who set up illegal camps and cause mayhem, and there are a large number of travellers who do this, and as with the biker scenario I gave above, as soon as you see the transit vans, four wheel drives and trailers, pulling into a car park, playing field, bit of open ground, you just know what the end result is going to be!

reply to post by destination now


Find the people who causing the problems, bring them to justice, and stop the behavior that is clearly hurting others. Don't find the Gypsies that are causing the problems.

I understand there is clearly a problem. I also gather local law enforcement does a horrible job at trying to remedy the problem. Anyone in the Government and people in general blaming the problem on an ethnic group are doing nothing to help the situation. All that does is lead to arguments about how some are good, some are bad etc etc...

At the core this isn't an ethnic group issue because not all people of the ethnic group in question are causing the problem so intimating that it is only muddles the issue.

If this is to be stopped the police and local government would need to set strict loitering and public land use regulations and be given the authority and power to enforce those regulations. Either that or the people of the effected community would need to join in force and oppose the illegal activity, NOT the ethnic group.

Either way there is a problem and no easy solution.

reply to post by Jinglelord


That's the problem though...they don't adhere to the laws, and when they're moved they just go elsewhere and create mayhem. The public purse is not bottomless, there is only so much money can be spent trying to stop them. Also to describe them as an ethnic group is actually quite misleading, the various groups round here are all Scottish, so am I. They are not Romany's, just people in caravans, but they use this ethnic grouping known as Gypsy Travellers (which the Romany's are up in arms about as they consider themselves Gypsies, and consider the other group as travellers and you thing we're bigoted, you should hear what the gypsies think of the travellers!) to excuse all sorts of behaviour.

If you read the posts of everyone who has a negative opinion, you will see a recurring theme, these problems are not restricted to a few bad apples that are tarnishing the whole group. These are large numbers of roaming groups who just do what they please, and I reitirate that we are not being bigoted or racist in any way, these people are being judged on their actions, no one here is judging the Gypsies or the Gypsy culture, but the other significant group of travellers who do cause trouble.

reply to post by destination now


Okay, I see that the ethnic groups causing the trouble are varied and it is more in line with a lifestyle. If this is the case how is it that it is claimed as racist to begin with? Yes I see that there IS an ethnic group associated with the travelling lifestyle and some of them cause trouble too. But wouldn't it logically follow that when someone says Gypsies are a nuisance they are being bigoted and when someone says those who live the travelling lifestyle and commit crimes are causing major trouble and must be dealt with there is no bigotry and the problem is being faced correctly.

I apologize if I sounded like I was accusing you of being a bigot, I am legitimately trying to wrap my head around the issue.

reply to post by Jinglelord


That is what the majority of us are saying in this thread, it is not a racist issue. We all have clearly defined the two types of Gypsy Travellers as well, the traditional groups who keep themselves to themselves and don't cause any problems (well no more problems than any group of people, obviously not every traditional gypsy is a shining beacon of perfection) and the non specific traveller groups (some say Irish travellers, but they are from all over the UK, so I don't label all the troublemakers as Irish) the majority of whom cause problems. It's not about having a bigoted attitude against these groups, it's about the reality when they have pitched up in your area and the trouble starts.

The Government intends to try to resolve the problems by creating more official sites, meaning that they have no reason to take over car parks, playing fields etc in the hope that they will move to these sites and if cease to be a problem to local communities. It would also mean that if they have official places to go, then when they are being moved from illegal sites, they cannot pull the we're being picked on because of ethnicity, human rights card, which gets them off with many things.

I would like to see a resolution myself and for the problems to be alieviated, because believe me, there is nothing like the heart sinking feeling of seeing the transit vans and the trailers pull up into an empty space near your home, because there always is trouble, then a terrible mess when they leave.

this is deffinatly not anything to do with race, as the majority of people who have a problem with gypsys are of the same race.
if gypsys want people to stop stereotyping them as anti-social thieves with backwards attitudes, then they should stop being anti-social thieves with backwards attitudes.

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by Jinglelord

 

obviously not every traditional gypsy is a shining beacon of perfection

No racisim here that I can see.

Originally posted by WhateverHappens

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by Jinglelord

 

obviously not every traditional gypsy is a shining beacon of perfection

No racisim here that I can see.

Sorry, it's very late here, not sure if that was sarcasm or if you were agreeing that I am not racist about Gypsies?

reply to post by destination now


Maybe the difficulty is that we are all, everyone of us with the exception of a few monks somewhere prejudiced, bigoted, and racist in our own ways. The trick is to recognize that within ourselves and not action it. And hopefully to recognize it isn't a realistic survival trait but a remnant of the ancient human survival instinct where people who were not like you probably would kill you and steal your resources so they could survive.

Anytime you start profiling an ethnic group and even place them in good and bad categories you are being racist, that is the definition. Does it matter if the nuisance travelers are Irish, Scottish, Gypsies or whatever? No it doesn't; unless they call racism when you try to disperse them.Which they did. So the appropriate response is to clearly and accurately describe exactly what the group is doing to injure the society as a whole and disregard their ethnicity. After all it isn't really important.

The real downside is once you've profiled any ethnic group it will be used as an excuse for any behavior. Because now you're a racist and what you say isn't valid. See I'm pragmatic not sympathetic.

reply to post by Jinglelord


I agree with your sentiment and have actually said that very thing myself on another thread. But I do not go around criticising travellers, quite the opposite, as I have said I used to do outreach work with a group on a council run site and like I said in the other thread had no problems at all.

But the travellers who do set up illegal camps do pull the race card and make it very difficult for anyone to do anything about them, then they cause devastation.

It is a complex problem, not caused by bigotry or racism, they don't react to perceived slights against them, they just do what they do and everyone around them suffers.

There are some in Memphis too, they live near the airport area here. I think they're seasonal though, mostly from what I've heard summer months then move on to warmer climate. There was a cool show on Fox as I recall a couple of years ago called The Riches, but it only lasted for a while then it was canceled. It stared Eddie Izzard and Minnie Driver. I thought it was entertaining.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Have you actually ever met any or know anything about Roma Gypsy's or Irish Travellers?

Either visit Eastern Europe or speak to some Eastern Europeans, I have done both, I assure you, it would be enlightening.
Experience the joy's of living close to Irish Travelling communities and I assure you it would be a revelation to you.

Sanctimonious and self-righteous accusations of racism are very easy from the comfort and isolation of an ivory tower.
I suspect they could well be tempered somewhat by actual experience.

I'll explain what the gypsies who live near me are like.

They gang up on teenage girls in the 'country park' type are they are next to. Typically two males will ask a girl if she has the time, knowing that she will most likely get out her phone to check it. Then they make a grab for the phone...and if the girl refuses they chase them until a public areas is reached. (This one happened to my best friend)

They have a small flatbed type vehicle to collect scrap metal on...without permission...in broad daylight. At the place I work we were having some building work done on some offices upstairs, and there was a small pile of scrap metal left in the company car park...the gypsies brought their truck in and strated pickin up the metal to load it into the truck before a manager came out and told them to 'move on'.

They wander around the nearby town shouting abuse at people trying to start fights. Generally drunk...often including the females despite what big fat gypsy weddings seemed to say.

When an accident occured on the road nearby their camp and an ambulance was needed. I saw that a police presence was also needed with one policeman keeping an aye on the ambulance doors and another watching over the paramedics...both clearly guarding from the nearby gypsy camp. (Rush hour traffic we moved by very slowly so I could take this all in)

My boss' wife works in the fraud department for the council. No member who has to enter that site will do so without police presence because of repeated cases of abuse, death threats and small physical abuse (pushing pulling out of the area).

Now whilst I certainly make no claim that every gypsy camp in the country is like this. The one near me IS, and it would appear a great many other camps around the country are also like this. And surely even the most PC of us could start to understand not particulalry liking such a group of people. And we all know the negative voice is louder than the positive so we hear of all the bad things and none of the good about gypsies.


As a further point, I don;t know how common place the 'grabbing' technique is they showed on big fat gypsy wedding. But some of that footage made me immediately hate those portrayed...if I treated girls like they were I'd be in for some form of sexual assault.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


well i have just visited my local Gypsy mystic (Romany Tybe A they got there crystal ball
out and guess what?
they say a warn or maybe even a possible ban from this forum is heading your way.
All it cost me was a sprig of "lucky heather", a good deal in my eye's.

ON TOPIC. It seems that the majority vote is that the Gypsy's portrayed as in my big fat Gypsy
wedding really are out of control and need to be brought to justice and people need to stand up
to these thugs and that is exactly what they are!
I have read little in these post's to convince me otherwise but i do know there does exist a kinder
more earthly type. These do not wish to be seen as the nasty type B: Thug type and try to keep
away from these and they do so by living the life by actually travelling around the country.

The only time the Thug Gypsy's travel is when they commit so much crime that they have no other
option but to disappear. They really do seem to operate above the law. I am not a fan, they don't have
any morals that conform to a decent way of life all they know is wheeling & dealing they pay NO TAX.

They bring all there troubles on themselves thus i have no pity whatsoever for these TYPE B: Gypsy's

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by halfoldman

 

Yes, I've seen Brad attempting to mimic the "pikey" speak. The language is an art form....is it Irish? Is it Scottish? Is it English? It changes all the time, as do their names, with whole communities adopting a group name, with variations of spelling e.g. McDonah, McDonagh, MacDonach and every other conceivable variation (and that's just one of the Scottish versions!) The trick is to speak quickly in an indeterminable accent, so that no one really catches what is being said

Also if your interested in dialects and speaking in "code" check out some "Pig Latin" handy when
there are a group of people being asked certain questions by the authorities, or keeping a 3rd party ignorant.
Have a go with this handy translator. teach yourself PIG LATIN (i myself am fluent)

users.snowcrest.net...

I saw some posts that really apreciated gypsies and their way of living.

I will tell you my point of view because i encounter gypsies or rroma (yes this is the correct form trust me) at every 200 meeters.

I live in Romania, in Sibiu, a small town located in the center of the country. Here we have the self entitled king and emperor of the gypsies and rroma. I see his 'palace' every time i go to visit my grandparents and i must tell you that its located in the most dangerous neighborhood of the town.

You all say that you see good, polite and clean rroma but that is only the select few that really are royalty or are smart and educated. The rest that makes for about 99% are filthy, uneducated and most of the times violent but some of those are hardworking citezens. The rest that makes for 90% of the rroma are the scum that rob,rape and kill just because you looked funny at them.

I can tell you that they are violent because as a youngster i travel a lot and go to a lot of places and i see what is happening arround me.

2 years ago i was beaten by a gang of gypsies right here in my neighborhood and i was admited into hospital with fractures and unconciousness.

If you were to live in Romania and turn on the news you would see all kind of news that involved gypsies killing or raping or just stealing.

Some of you might be interested in their culture but i can tell you that its nothing, they don't have a culture. Its just a combination of all the cultures of the western countries of europe.

So next time you see a gypsy that is hard working or is clean and smart please notice that you encountered just one of the 10% that are good people.

Okay, nobody here seems to be backing down at all.

This must make me pose the question: Is racism sometimes warranted? And if it is sometimes warranted at what point is it warranted and how far should it go?

I am genuinely asking this question. To me it seems the ultimate conclusion of ascribing the negative behaviors to an ethnic group is genocide. This isn't silly, it has happened time and time again throughout history and if I was paying attention it is probably happening now.

If a group absolutely can't conform to the social contract of their greater society what is the correct answer? To me the correct answer is to ignore ethnicity and punish the behaviors that hurt society. Ascribing behaviors to an ethnic group is dangerous because then those that do wish be a part of society feel they can't. If it is ascribed to only the behavior maybe more would feel like they could change...

reply to post by Jinglelord


"Is racism sometimes warranted?"

Does it even matter?

Maybe sometimes racism is justified. Maybe. But when has racism solved any of the social problems it was created by? It only makes things worse.

Hating a group of people will not make them suddenly comply to social norms.

reply to post by Wallachian


Couldn't agree more. So why are the troublemakers labelled by their ethnic group instead of their crimes? Probably convenience. It really makes no difference who these people are. The issue is what they are doing to effect society and that is what needs to be addressed.