Britain and Sharia Law

Hi ATS

After reading many comments about Britain and sharia law I thought it would be best to start a thread so it can be discussed.

Firstly I think it should be clarified that Britain does not practice sharia law. However this does not seem to be the view that some people in Britain (amazingly), America and I am assuming (rightly or wrongly) other countries have of British law.

I am basing my opinion of other countries' views about this on comments made on ATS and other boards and from what I see on U.S television. I watch a lot of U.S telly (partly because I like to see how they view the world but mostly because they made the Wire and Manimal) and the statement that Britain has sharia law is made quite often. This is on both left wing (John Stewart and Bill Maher) and right wing (Fox news) programming.

Britain's rule of law has developed over a thousand years, we have the Magna Carta and created habeas corpus. It is the basis for most of the judical systems in the Commonwealth and the U.S.A. There have been NO cases of any person being tried in any British court under sharia law.

Civli cases however, are different.

Since the 1996 arbitration act was passed (www.legislation.gov.uk...), opposing sides in civil cases can have a dispute arbitrated by any third party that they both agree on. Any ruling made this way is enforceable in British law.

The muslim council have recognised this and set up an arbitration service for British muslims(www.matribunal.com...). It is this service that they label a court and they base their judgements on sharia law.

Therefore, if two British muslims have a civil dispute and agree beforehand to have that dispute arbitrated by the muslim council under sharia law then they can and consequently, due to the arbitration act these rulings become enforceable by law.

This is the contentious issue for a lot of people in Britain as British law is inherently secular and people want to keep it like that. This is perfectly understandable and reasonable. Our laws were primarily developed on judeo christian morals but as a society we have evolved past those and our legal sytem reflects this.

However, as I said, civil cases are different. People can choose how they want their dispute arbitrated and if they choose to have it done under their religions laws, then that is their right (or is it a privelege? I believe so)

Because the muslim counciul have done this relatively recently and because of the general feelings towards muslims there has been a lot of headlines and discussion about this (www.timesonline.co.uk... www.guardian.co.uk...) . Leading to the misconception about Britain having sharia law (I am aware some people would say that this is not a misconception, that is up for discussion).

However they are not the only religion to arbitrate civil cases like this.

Some British jews also do it, the British beth din has existed since the 1700's (www.theus.org.uk... news.bbc.co.uk...). They have been making civil judgements in accordance with rabbinical law since then but there has been little mention of this fact whenever this subject is discussed.

In all of these cases the judgements made by the arbitration services (or religious courts) have to be in accordance with British law, if they are not either side can take the other side to legitimate court (and in my opinion get a legitimate judgement).

I think therefore it is demonstrably wrong to say that Britain has sharia law.

But then, it is not wrong to say someone can get a civil judgement made under sharia law and this for me is the issue and worthy of discussion and the point I am trying to make.


Should any religion have a place in the legal system?


I think all courts and court cases, both civil and criminal, should be heard in a secular court. I dont think religion has any place in the legal system and thankfully in criminal law it doesn't. I dont think it ever will either. Our legal system has been built on the justice and injustice of many people over many years and is something Britain should now be proud of. There are always injustices and laws you don't agree with but the actual legal process is something to be proud of I think.

With civil cases though, which are subjective to the poeple involved, who am I to impose my ideals on to someone else? In a free society if people want to believe in a god and a religion and live their life according to its precepts, then that is their business. As long as they dont break the law of the land they are doing nothing wrong.

We have legislation that specifically gives people that right. they are exercising that right. That is how it is for everybody regardless of religion, race or sexuality.


It is because of these rights that I can be pretty certain that Britain would never have sharia law. What rights would women have under sharia law? People fought for those rights. People died for those rights. They are not going to give them back.

I can never see sharia law becoming a reality. For example; there are 2 million muslims in Britain, a percentage of which want sharia law. There are 30 million women in Britain, none of who want to give back their rights. Thats not mentioning the gay people and the men who dont want sharia law. Which is basically everybody apart form the small percentage of British muslims. Look at the numbers, it's not happening and it is not going to happen.

However saying that, I still think any legal system should be secular. But you could also argue that certain civil cases are just disputes and if someone wants to get a cleric or rabbi to sort it out then fine.....

So thats my bit. What do you think?

Cheers ATS, this is my first thread so if there are any formatting issues let me know and I will ask how to solve it in future.

i think Britain has sharia law

reply to post by doubleplusungood


Hi double,

The tragedy is that Britain has let sharia law move in - you have sharia law.

All those years, when your country put people like me through a lot of hoops (I am from NZ) to get in.

Now Britain has the enemy within.

Stupid or not?

reply to post by doubleplusungood


Well put together first thread. s&f

Well I don't see Sharia law gaining a foothold in the UK..
Fact is the majority of Muslims don't even want it..
Malaysia for example has ONE state that upholds Sharia Law, the majority of the country is moderate muslims..

But we'll always get the few telling us it's coming or it's already there because they wish to divide the community through fear....

We no more have Sharia than we do Beth Din

Both of these are used to resolve civil disputes such as business or divorce if all those concerned agree, but and it is a big but these courts are not allowed to rule or criminal mattersor take precedence over UK law.
Using a religious court is not compulsory, if someone is not happy with the outcome of one of these courts they are free to go through the normal civil courts.

We also have Christian courts managed by the Church of England, who deal with the same disputes.

reply to post by dizzylizzy


Sorry to disagree, dizzy,

You definitely have sharia law - you have extremists right there.

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
reply to post by dizzylizzy

 

Sorry to disagree, dizzy,

You definitely have sharia law - you have extremists right there.

And the US still has some KKK members and Nazis, but it ain't the norm..

reply to post by backinblack


Hi back,

Yes, thank the Lord, it is not the norm.

But it is enough to kill people.

reply to post by doubleplusungood


What? A thread about the reality of Sharia law in Britain that tells the truth?

Never thought I'd see the day on ATS.

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone


If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasming your way through Nirvana.

Really. Read the damn post before twirling around on your thumb and spouting this inane crap.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusoneYou definitely have sharia law

No we don't.

you have extremists right there.

Sharia law and Islamic extremists are not the same thing. We have more chance of the Church of England taking over the legal system.

reply to post by doubleplusungood


Yes I have known this for a while and dont really have a problem with it. If its ok for Orthodox Jews then why not Muslims?
Of course in an ideal world we would have no need for any religious courts, but thats not the situation we face ourselves with.

So aslong as these courts remain within the remit they have at the moment it's not a problem. All UK citizens are treated the same when it comes to committing a crime.

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
reply to post by doubleplusungood

 

Hi double,

The tragedy is that Britain has let sharia law move in - you have sharia law.

All those years, when your country put people like me through a lot of hoops (I am from NZ) to get in.

Now Britain has the enemy within.

Stupid or not?

Are you from the UK? you seem to think you know the laws of the land. Whereabouts are you from?

My family still go by Borough English and what not, so do a lot of others around here, all I can say is so what, these are things we believe in, and nothing can change that for me or someone who believes in Sharia.

I do not however see a need to have a separate court to resolve Borough English disputes.. IMHO that is what the British court system is for.. if you have a problem with the way your system works then it should simply default to the UKs courts.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

All UK citizens are treated the same when it comes to committing a crime.

Well that's wrong..
Look at pollies, police, royalty etc...

The rest I agree with..

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

All UK citizens are treated the same when it comes to committing a crime.

Well that's wrong..
Look at pollies, police, royalty etc...

The rest I agree with..

I was going to make a section in brackets for those criminals. lol

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone


Hi catwhoknows

Thanks for commenting.
I don't think having extremists/fundamentalists within a society has any correlation to that society's legal system. Most countries have religious and left and right wing extremists. Does that mean their legal system reflects this?

For the record though, Britain definitelty does not have sharia law. If you disagree find me an example of any person who has been tried under sharia law. It has not happened.

Cheers

reply to post by backinblack


Hi back
Thanks for commenting
Yeah I agree.
In actuality Britain and sharia law is just a ridculous concept. But that is not how it is reported. I belive this matter has been reported on terribly. Wilfully ignorant and bordering on fearmongering.
The actual point I reckon is definitely worthy of debate but it gets hidden behind the sharia law headline.
And as that is all that gets reported on, all the discussion is toward that. I don't want any religious courts in Britain, but they have been here for ages for all religions. And have the right to do so. Not for the scary muslims though.

That is how I feel about a lot of news though. It has gone beyond news to commentary now. When I see old newsbroadcasts I wish ours now were like them. Just news, no opinion.

Cheers

Brittan does not have Sharia law, nor will it ever have Sharia law.

Unfortunately there is a deeper issue, the issue is the End Timer's Cult, who are using fear-mongering tactics like saying that this country or that country are going to be taken over by Muslims and that they will instill Sharia law in that country. They are doing this purely for propaganda purposes in order for people to be fearful of any and all Muslims and thus give the End Timer's Cult more reason to brainwash people into a holy war with the middle east.

The ultimate goal of course is to start a holy war in the middle east, tear down the dome of the rock in Jeruselem, and raise Solomon's Temple again on that spot with the hope that it will cause the end of the world and the Apocalypse.

This is seriously what these people believe, that if they can destroy that particular Mosque, and build the Temple of Solomon on that spot, that the end of the world will occur.

Of course reality is far separated from that, as most Muslims that go to other countries are looking for a place where Sharia doesn't exist. Yes they still want to be Muslim, but they don't want the oppression of Sharia over their entire lives.

I don't know about Brittan, but in the US, there are American groups that want a Christian version of Sharia on the books, again these groups are part of that End Timer's Cult and they believe that the US needs to be purified of "undesirable elements" which include gays, Hispanics, Muslims, any other nationality but White Anglo Saxons. They no longer march out directly with these precepts in their propaganda, but subtly hide it in their literature, politics, mission statements, etc. I am sure that England has these groups too.