A European's Perspective on socialism and why Americans reject it

Originally posted by GuerillaFighter
Finally someone who knows what they are talking about. All the time I will see topics like "Why is Obama making this a socialist/communist country" people need to understand the two different ideologies but the fact is no one really seems to care. They just work, eat go home and watch gossip and other useless propaganda. Ever heard of Fox News? there mainly responsible for this. I have heard Glenn Beck say things like "Socialism makes people lazy" and "Obama hates white people" I have been a Socialist for years and I think Canada should follow what Sweden is doing considering our population size and all.

Yeah it's all the fault of Fox News and Glenn Beck. What a crock. Same talking point spin BS given out at most Union Rallies and Code Pink meetings.

Again, I have read on what Socialism is, does and what it wants to bring. You can keep it.

And I have yet to see proof of Beck saying "Obama Hates White People". Maybe do your homework and make decisions for yourself.
When people are provided for every want, they do become lazy.

Yeah

it's all the fault of Fox News and Glenn Beck. What a crock. Same talking point spin BS given out at most Union Rallies and Code Pink meetings.

Again, I have read on what Socialism is, does and what it wants to bring. You can keep it.

And I have yet to see proof of Beck saying "Obama Hates White People". Maybe do your homework and make decisions for yourself.
When people are provided for every want, they do become lazy.

How do the Code Pink activists define all of socialism? They stand up for what they believe in, just like that 'Tea Party' does. Sounds like you take a conservative stance. Nothing wrong with that at all. The only problem I have with this statement, above, is that you seem to have a problem with the Unions. You do know that the Unions are what made America prosperous?

*Americans prosperous, I meant to say

reply to post by TheAnuraOne


First, no Unions did not make America prosperous. Americans working made America prosperous.

Second, I do take a conservative stance, but I am more Libertarian.
I have seen and read the happenings and background of Code Pink. For a group of people that claim to stand for truth and so on, they sure do talk a lot about stringing people up and sending them back to the fields.

When people are provided for every want, they do become lazy.

No offense, but seems like a lot of Americans are lazy already! And that is with a 'Democratic Republic' as you like to refer America as. Please don't give me that excuse there's no jobs! I hear the news, I see on the internet. People are turning down jobs for many reasons. Mostly due to they won't take a pay cut for a less desirable job. The some of you complain that the 'illegals' from Mexico are taking all of 'your' jobs! Yet, most of you won't practice a little humility and suck it up.

Now that I think about it, I think I really can define Socialism (as I know it):

People working together for the betterment of their country.
line 2

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne

When people are provided for every want, they do become lazy.

No offense, but seems like a lot of Americans are lazy already!

And that is with a 'Democratic Republic' as you like to refer America as. Please don't give me that excuse there's no jobs! I hear the news, I see on the internet. People are turning down jobs for many reasons. Mostly due to they won't take a pay cut for a less desirable job. The some of you complain that the 'illegals' from Mexico are taking all of 'your' jobs! Yet, most of you won't practice a little humility and suck it up.

Yes, you are correct. A large portion of Americans have become lazy. I wonder why that is??Hummm.
Lets see, maybe the advent and implementation of the Welfare state. Why work when you can get from the Govt.
Yes, most are turning done jobs so they can stay on unemployment. Again, why work when you can get from the govt?
As for Illegals, lets just keep to the topic at hand. That is something different, for another day.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
Now that I think about it, I think I really can define Socialism (as I know it):

People working together for the betterment of their country.
line 2

Again, if that is what you want, you can keep it. I say no thanks.

reply to post by TheAnuraOne


Crimevelvet's point is that collectivist/socialist ideology was invented by CAPITALISTS! Why? Because it is a myth. The wealth is never redistributed. They may give you a little back in the form of social services, but it is far less than the amount confiscated by the taxation that is justified by supposedly providing services. My parents have paid into social security for decades, and they will get a miniscule amount of what they put in.
The reality is that the elite use the state not to redistribute wealth, but to transer to themselves. The recent bail out in the united states transfered the greatest amount of human wealth in history to a banking aristocracy. The people will never see their money again. The myth of socialist collectivist thought is similar to myths like racial superority, or gender distinctions. They have no real basis other than a created system for some to dominate others. If this is too radical to accept prove it wrong. Search out Marx's connection to the House of Rothschild, or the Fabian socialists in the United States. Ask yourself why the most powerful capitalists in history have funded, spread, and implemented socialist policies? These people do not act unless it is well thought out, and in their interest.

reply to post by macman


You are entitled to your opinion. You are *surprise* neither right nor wrong when you state an opinion. However, when you say 'welfare' state to addres MY country's form of government you are wrong. Like I said, we pay for all of our services with high taxes. Deny Ignorance and wash away that crap you think you know of socialism! It's more apparent that you have a closed mind. Okay, fine. No problem. Keep your form of government and hopefully Sweden will keep its and we will see who's standing at the end. Not to sound cocky, but seriously, USA was great in the past. The world has adapted with the times. Yes, we all know you don't give a damn. That's fine. But, seriously, when the debts that your country owe the rest of the world, they wont come suddenly. They will wait for you to go damn near bankrupt, like you are, then collect. How will you respond? You see, the child that America is has a lot to learn from much older societies such as mine. You are but an infant in the world's eyes. No doubt, America has contributed loads to humanity. Back then. When the world gave you the baton to take control, you failed as it is evident now. Capitalism, when not corrupted, will make a nation very powerful.

Do you know that your government and your citizens have been living off of credit the last 60 yrs? You have had no real income in all this time. Like another poster said, you continue the military complex. Yes, we all know the USA's might. A real leader doesn't show it unecessarily. As my father used to say, "strong men walk in silence". However, you have China creeping up your back. Guess what their history shows? They are a patient people. They will collect on their own terms and it will not be pretty. What am I trying to say? That all this strife you are experiencung in the States all boils down to your economy. EVERYTHING can be traced back to money.

You don't know me from Adam, but I mean no harm nor disrespect in what I say. The time has come for change in America. It must mold to the present times in its' own way.

FYI, I lived in the States while I attended university there, so I am not ignorant of the US. Plus, I have relatives there. So, I am informed.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman

 

You are entitled to your opinion. You are *surprise* neither right nor wrong when you state an opinion. However, when you say 'welfare' state to addres MY country's form of government you are wrong. Like I said, we pay for all of our services with high taxes. Deny Ignorance and wash away that crap you think you know of socialism! It's more apparent that you have a closed mind. Okay, fine. No problem. Keep your form of government and hopefully Sweden will keep its and we will see who's standing at the end. Not to sound cocky, but seriously, USA was great in the past. The world has adapted with the times. Yes, we all know you don't give a damn. That's fine. But, seriously, when the debts that your country owe the rest of the world, they wont come suddenly. They will wait for you to go damn near bankrupt, like you are, then collect. How will you respond? You see, the child that America is has a lot to learn from much older societies such as mine. You are but an infant in the world's eyes. No doubt, America has contributed loads to humanity. Back then. When the world gave you the baton to take control, you failed as it is evident now. Capitalism, when not corrupted, will make a nation very powerful.

Do you know that your government and your citizens have been living off of credit the last 60 yrs? You have had no real income in all this time. Like another poster said, you continue the military complex. Yes, we all know the USA's might. A real leader doesn't show it unecessarily. As my father used to say, "strong men walk in silence". However, you have China creeping up your back. Guess what their history shows? They are a patient people. They will collect on their own terms and it will not be pretty. What am I trying to say? That all this strife you are experiencung in the States all boils down to your economy. EVERYTHING can be traced back to money.

You don't know me from Adam, but I mean no harm nor disrespect in what I say. The time has come for change in America. It must mold to the present times in its' own way.

FYI, I lived in the States while I attended university there, so I am not ignorant of the US. Plus, I have relatives there. So, I am informed.

Ok, so plain and simply, the USA needs to change. We need to go back to our original founding. That would fix SO many of our problems here.
Americans, for the most part, do live on credit. I do not. There is a large amount of people that over the last 2 years saw the writing on the wall, paid off our individual debt and got rid of credit. I am one of those people.
As for the blah blah crap of "America" does this or that, wars here and there and so on is not what we are talking about.
In one hand, there is the out of control fed Govt. On the other is the US citizen, like me that wants the Govt reined back in to the original intent. Please stop (Everyone) trying to link me and my dislike for Socialism to how the US fed Govt acts around the world. The actions of the govt do not convey my actions and wants. So your argument that the US flexes its muscles is a moot point.
It is nice that you went to a College here. Great and fantastic. It still doesn't truly instill what America is about. Since I visited Mexico, or some other country does not give me any more information to banter on about how their country needs to change and become more like this or that.
With your background, and statements, you set up the idea that if i come and live in your country for a period of time, it gives me grounds to start into you about how you fear Democracy and so on. It, in fact does not.

This thread is starting to become a sales pitch. You are coming across as our friendly door to door salesman offering Socialism instead of vacums.
The US does not need it, and for the most part we do not want it. We need to go back to our roots of our creation as a nation.
As for your statement that everyone pays into your programs, are you sure about that? What about the homeless guy, who draws no income, that lives off the system?
Please don't come back with "Well he spends his Govt check, thus paying it back". That is Keynesian economics. It has proven in the long run to be a failure.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman

 

You see, the child that America is has a lot to learn from much older societies such as mine. You are but an infant in the world's eyes. No doubt, America has contributed loads to humanity. Back then. When the world gave you the baton to take control, you failed as it is evident now. Capitalism, when not corrupted, will make a nation very powerful.

So now your country is the Parent? So to speak.
That comment alone speaks volumes.
Again, you can keep your style of govt. I say no thank again.

reply to post by macman


Macman, you are right. I stand corrected. I didn't hear it as a sales pitch when typing it, but since you mentioned it and I read it again, I see your point. I admit when I am wrong. I never meant it to be as a lecture. Not at all.

FYI I loved being in America. For Pete's sake, I am rooting for the rebound of America! Did you catch that in my original post? I whole heartedly mean it. Egos got in the way of the message I was trying to put out. This, in everything I have wrote, is what we are observing over here. Whether we like or dislike America is not the case.I am just simply stating the obvious. What your countrymen do to solve the problems you are having is ultimately up to you. I just hope you make it through and see the errors that have been made and correct them. I have said enough.

I, too, am human. I humbly apologize for my rantings and offense if anyone was offended and hope there are not any grudges held. There is none held from my end. After all, politics is ultimately enacted opinions and ideas.

I humbly bow out. Peace and God Bless.

reply to post by TheAnuraOne


Hey man, no worries. I do not hate but 3 people in the world. That is for another time and place.

I don't hold grudges and I take very little personal. For the most part, I really don't care what most people think of me or my views. Well, my family is about it.

I too am sorry of i came across as hostile. As that is not my intent.
You got to realize that most Americans want freedom for all people. We want all people to be successful. But, we do not want an all knowing all seeing Govt having a hand in it. We know that once the govt provides, they control. It is very simple.

I understand your want for America to bounce back, and I appreciate the kind words.
America is, unfortunately in dark days right now. The answer is going back to the original construction of our country. Not deeper into the darkness.

I enjoyed this debate and look forward to more in the future.

Democracy, Socialism, Bla,

Just be considerate, and compromise, stop looking for a #ing club to join. Get rid of religion and political parties.

Originally posted by Logan5782
Democracy, Socialism, Bla,

Just be considerate, and compromise, stop looking for a #ing club to join. Get rid of religion and political parties.

Yeah, what you said really displays consideration and compromise.

reply to post by TheAnuraOne

An American's Perspective on Sweden:

1. Condoms that leak.
   
2. Women who put you in prison because condoms leak.
   
3. Secrets that leak.
   
4. Tanks with no turrets.
   
5. Nobel Peace Prize for Obama.
   
6. ABBA.
   
7. Rye Krisp.
   

Americans have been raised in mind-control schools and spoon-fed on Faux News. They have no clue about anything ending in 'ism.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman

 

Well, we can start keeping our hands off your government, as you say, when you pay back the billions you owe us and the rest of the world, cowboy.

We'll pay up with the trillions we get back that we've loaned.

/TOA

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
Now that I think about it, I think I really can define Socialism (as I know it):

People working together for the betterment of their country.
line 2

Again, if that is what you want, you can keep it. I say no thanks.

Ok I've just got to ask. Why is this - "People working together for the betterment of their country" - so undesireable to you? How can you have civilization without cooperation? Is civilization even meaningful apart from altruism?

Originally posted by Lilitu

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
Now that I think about it, I think I really can define Socialism (as I know it):

People working together for the betterment of their country.
line 2

Again, if that is what you want, you can keep it. I say no thanks.

Ok I've just got to ask. Why is this - "People working together for the betterment of their country" - so undesireable to you? How can you have civilization without cooperation? Is civilization even meaningful apart from altruism?

I do not need, nor do I want "people" working for my betterment. The US was created so the individual can succeed on their own merit, and profit from their success. It is now that when the individual succeeds, the person gets to keep some of their profit, while the Govt takes what they want to give to others.
When you are beholden to others for your success, they control you. Plain and simple.
If people want to get together and pool their resources and live together, more power to them. I am against a Govt forcing this upon me.
That's the difference. Civilization can operate without forced giving.

reply to post by TheAnuraOne


I've read your thread and appreciate its candor. As an American who does not want European style socialism to be part of our system I can speak to you as someone who has been framed by the media as an ignorant racist. Don't fall for the stereotype that are being fed to you about Americans who oppose Obama's policies. To expand on your premise of why Americans reject Obama's goal of turning us into a "socialist" state is that we love our constitution and just want our leaders to follow its direction. It's Obama's premise of "change" that bothers many of us and not his skin color. We may be the single most diverse nation on Earth- racially speaking- and our opinions can be just as diverse. The strategy for those who support obama's agenda is to dismiss dissent as racism. Being called a racist is as bad as calling someone a child molester. Even if it isn't true the accusation alone immediately puts one on the defensive and taints everyone else's view of who you are. I also find it continually amusing that socialism is framed in terms of a slow progression instead of "doing too much at once". That is an admission that socialism cannot be sold at face value to Americans. It has to be called something else and implemented over time in order for Americans to accept it. But we've already have socialized programs in this country and they are all failing. Social Security is the biggest ponzi scheme (much bigger than Bernie Maddoff) in the history of man. What's happening in America right now is that people are waking up to the fact that American Progressivism masquerading as european style socialism is taking hold of our country at the highest levels and we need to do something about it. It's just a power grab funded by unions (Obama's biggest funding comes from labor and public unions) in order to bolster union power. None of this is very clear cut as we could get a thousand different takes on obama's "intentions" but that belies the real problem. America elected someone who we really don't know. Who is this guy and what history does he have to demonstrate what sort of man he really is? So far, I'd rate him as a mediocre leader with poor insight into how people think or work. I don't think he cares about the back and forth of debate or other people's opinions. I think he believes he's the guy in charge and we should all just let him do what he wants. That's not a president. That's something else and our constitution was designed to avoid such "leadership".