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A European's Perspective on socialism and why Americans reject it

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posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:15 AM
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*This was originally a reply to another thread, but I thought it would make a good thread of its own.*

I think, in my humble opinion, that misconceptions and media lies are what has fueled this 'revolution' ,as you call it, in America. Obama has/is trying to create a European-style government molded like my Swedish government. Contrary to popular misinformation, it is not molded after our good neighbors in England nor America's neighbors to the north, Canada. With the media lying about what kind of government it would be (if Obama were successful) the Americans have becomed hoodwinked. You have been lied to about exactly what kind of government he's trying to make, and what it would be like. The revolt, as you will, can be blamed on numerous factors: bigotry, racism, fear and ignorance are just a few that come to mind. I have decided that maybe a Swede's perspective on this all might inform some of the people who are just not knowledgeable on the afforementioned subject. In my opinion, he's not trying to create a new USSR/USA hybrid a many of you believe. That is just ridiculous to believe that. Anyways, back to the topic.

For example, here in Sweden we are NOT a (completely) socialist country. We are a mixture of capitalism and socialism. I know, I know. People hear that word socialism and they think communism. Wrong. That is a media lie. We accept all religions and promote independant thought. Last time I checked, that was anti-communism. However, the American media has portrayed ALL socialism to be communism and that is just wrong. We are vastly different than China and the old USSR. Here in Sweden, we have virtually no one on welfare (and from the media outlets and blogs I have read from the States regarding socialism, according to them everyone would be on welfare) and almost nothing is handed out. Our taxes pay for every service we receive, every program we enroll in, every school we attend, everything. You won't hear that in the media over there.You are told that you will be in a bread line, with no job and no money. We have virtually no unemployment and almost no welfare recipients. You hear that we Swedes have free healthcare, free this and free that, and milk and cookies for bedtime. Absolutely not. We pay for everything via our taxes. Here in Sweden it works and I will give you two examples of why it works:

1. Sweden has nowhere near the population as America does. Our form of government will only work for much smaller populated countries.

2. Here in Sweden, when we pay our taxes, it actually goes to what the government says it will: services. Our government doesn't take the taxes from us and spend it on other things, then borrow from a program to pay for it and borrow from another program to pay for the borrowed (from) program, and then borrow from another country to pay for all the borrowing from its programs that it has done! That's INSANE!. What a hairball the IRS is dealing with and to think it's from its own bosses' doing!

Obama means well, but he's vain to think that our style of government would work over there. Capitalism is great, but so is socialism if it is applied right and the public is educated enough about it. Hence, Deny Ignorance. How appropriate.

Now, is Sweden the land of milk and honey? I don't know. But, it's working. I do know that. We have billions of Krona in surplus and we have no outstanding bills owed. It took us 25 years for it to finally start working. It didn't happen overnight and I think that is the crucial mistake Obama made. He tried to do everything at once. You cannot do that. Plus, TPTB would have to give up some control if our style of government was enacted over there. Well, as we all know, they would NEVER go for that.

Sweden is a valuable trading partner with the USA and we our sometimes referred to as the '52' state. We don't hate America, We are rooting for you! Get this racial crap behind you, unite together against your lying and deceitful government and take control of your country! Stop falling into the traps that the elites have set forth and educate everyone you know. Ignorance is no excuse. God Bless the USA.




posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:29 AM
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what the hell is socialism anyways?



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:30 AM
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I would have wrote the same about Canada. A good mixture of capitalism and socialism. True that paying higher taxes is not something fun, but when things go wrong, you're just glad you paid them.

The goal of this mixture is to assure the basic needs of the people, which make national productivity and the populace more stable.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:32 AM
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That is all good for you.
Please keep your hands off my Govt. I will do the same.

I do not want anything but a Democratic Republic. I do not want anything from the govt except provide military protection, roads and a safe country. If the US Govt were to follow this, things would be so much better.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
Our taxes pay for every service we receive, every program we enroll in, every school we attend, everything.

That must be nice.
Ours pay for bombs...



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:47 AM
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Sorry, but you're way off. First of all, Israel is the 52'nd state. : ) Secondly, obama wants nothing like your government, and he doesnt want any form of socialism. That is just demonization of the right and the press. What he actually wants, the same as all democrats and republicans....barring perhaps 4 (one repub and 3 dems)(um...thats gravel, kucinich, paul, and maybe one or two we dont know about) is to transfer all the money from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy elite. Every single program or decision that obama has supported has been to benefit the corporations. His proposed "obamacare" was created solely to guarantee every american would be forced to pay the health insurance industries, and also to guarantee massive profit to the corporations, and did nothing to provide better or cheaper healthcare to the populace. His bailout and his stimulus packages were made to protect the profits and safety of the banks, and did nothing to help the americans losing jobs or homes, and the expanded wars he supports are there solely to secure the flow of oil, and to put money into the pockets of arms manufacturers and defense contractors, and do nothing to provide security or defense to americans. All the people who call him a socialist, are liars, though it would be better for us all if he were. True socialists take offense at being grouped with him. All the people saying he wants to redistribute wealth.....are correct, but not in the way they think. Like all most powerful elected officials, his goal is to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich, which in america is ok, while transfering wealth from the rich to the poor is anathema. There is class warfare going on, but it is being waged....and won...by the wealthy.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by subject x
Our taxes pay for every service we receive, every program we enroll in, every school we attend, everything.

That must be nice.
Ours pay for bombs...

And this mentality is exactly why your country is falling. Self-inflicting wounds and trying to blame others. Nice.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:48 AM
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So much negativity and you wonder why your country is in turmoil.
Change of attitude is needed.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by macman
 


Well, we can start keeping our hands off your government, as you say, when you pay back the billions you owe us and the rest of the world, cowboy.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
I think, in my humble opinion, that misconceptions and media lies are what has fueled this 'revolution' ,as you call it, in America.


I think you are correct. The frenzy here over "Socialism" is not based on any kind of real assessment of that particular economic model.

By way of example, I happen to work every day with a group of people who live in a country with a very Socialistic economic model (not Sweden).

These folks in general have less fear of their government than do many Americans of ours. They do not seem to feel oppressed in any way. They get better benefits working at the same company I do, because the laws of their country require it. One fella, who is junior to me in the company, gets enough vacation time each year, and has enough disposable income that he can come to the US on vacation. I, who have been at the company longer but am subject to US laws, do NOT get enough vacation in a year to travel overseas, and I could not afford it if I did.

These folks have no healthcare worries... if they get sick or injured or have a baby, it is all taken care of, whether they work for this company or not. If I get sick or injured (I'm a guy... no babies for me!
) it had better be while I'm employed and even then it's basically a crap shoot whether I'll survive the hospital experience, since I'm not rich or Important.

Many people seem to confuse a Socialist economic system with some kind of repressive political system. Clearly, the two are not related. But many think so. On a side note, I did at one time as well... got educated on the difference right here on ATS...


My personal opinion is that a purely Socialistic economic system won't work any better than a purely Capitalistic one... a good mix is probably the best way to go.

I'm not sure that I agree with your assertion that the Swedish model won't work here. Given the current climate of everybody grasping what they perceive as "theirs" without regard to much else, it probably would not work here right now. But I don't think the size or diversity of the US population per se would be a deal breaker. It is more the attitudes of said population...



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:54 AM
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Let me further pull the rug from under the "lower taxes" myth. The US, in 2010, had official "tax free day" in june...which means that most americans were estimated to work through june JUST to pay taxes. They estimated this year that most americans spent almost 50% of their total pay on taxes, after FICA, state tax, Social security, medicare and caide, sales taxes, property tax, vice tax, etc. Only a few european countries pay that much. And in return for our taxes we get.....nothing. Other nations get free healthcare, and education. We even have our infrastructure drastically falling apart. In the meantime, all our services, schools, prisons, toll roads, etc are being privatized, with the cost skyrocketing. What do we get for our taxes? Soldiers on the ground in all other nations around the world. Acts of war being perpetrated by us in 4 nations overtly and untold covertly. People all over the globe hating us. Our own government following our every move, cameras at intersections, monitored internet and cell phone activity. Oh, and now american citizens that the government deems "enemy" can legally be assassinated in other nations with no due process or representation. 30% of our mortgages are upside down, and healthcare is the main cause of bankruptcy.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman
 


Well, we can start keeping our hands off your government, as you say, when you pay back the billions you owe us and the rest of the world, cowboy.

Um, no.
The US govt is in no way a reflection of me or most that I know.
As for paying you back? really? That road to "You Owe Me" is old and over used.
IOUs are void and irrelevant.
Still, this is a prime example why people in the US (US Citizens, not Govt) get tired of people from Europe. You feel the need to inject your opinion and criticisms on us, without really having any understanding as to who we are and where we come from.
Again, I don't need your take on us, I know that most of us are well aware of what we need to do.
Cowboy?? No, just a misplaced southern redneck. Cowboys are traditional from out west. Maybe get your stereotypes down before you hand them out.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:00 AM
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reply to post by TheAnuraOne
 

can you describe sweden's banking system? how does the central government issue currency and credit?
I dont want to sound racist but what % of the population is not of white/european descent?



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:02 AM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 


Thank you for your perspective on this matter.Knowledge of facts is key to being able to understand all of this. Some people go on what others tell them and things get misrepresented. Ignorance is to blame for some people's interpretations of exactly what I was trying to say. If the US government could find the right mixture fo capitalism and socialism the citizens would find out they were wrong and we all know no one likes to admit when they are wrong.

I have been to the states before. How many times I heard "America is the greatest nation", yet I doubt 90% of the people I talked to had actually been outside the US. Hmm.

Anyways, like I said, God Bless America.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
I think, in my humble opinion, that misconceptions and media lies are what has fueled this 'revolution' ,as you call it, in America.


I think you are correct. The frenzy here over "Socialism" is not based on any kind of real assessment of that particular economic model.

By way of example, I happen to work every day with a group of people who live in a country with a very Socialistic economic model (not Sweden).

These folks in general have less fear of their government than do many Americans of ours. They do not seem to feel oppressed in any way. They get better benefits working at the same company I do, because the laws of their country require it. One fella, who is junior to me in the company, gets enough vacation time each year, and has enough disposable income that he can come to the US on vacation. I, who have been at the company longer but am subject to US laws, do NOT get enough vacation in a year to travel overseas, and I could not afford it if I did.

These folks have no healthcare worries... if they get sick or injured or have a baby, it is all taken care of, whether they work for this company or not. If I get sick or injured (I'm a guy... no babies for me!
) it had better be while I'm employed and even then it's basically a crap shoot whether I'll survive the hospital experience, since I'm not rich or Important.

Many people seem to confuse a Socialist economic system with some kind of repressive political system. Clearly, the two are not related. But many think so. On a side note, I did at one time as well... got educated on the difference right here on ATS...


My personal opinion is that a purely Socialistic economic system won't work any better than a purely Capitalistic one... a good mix is probably the best way to go.

I'm not sure that I agree with your assertion that the Swedish model won't work here. Given the current climate of everybody grasping what they perceive as "theirs" without regard to much else, it probably would not work here right now. But I don't think the size or diversity of the US population per se would be a deal breaker. It is more the attitudes of said population...


USSR/China == Marxist Leninism

They are not real pure communist. Not with fascist authoritarian central bureaucracies.

Socialism doesn't mean social welfare. Socialism doesn't mean corporate welfare(bailouts)either.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by macman
 


Riiiight. Bravo, alpha male. Since you have such a grandiose attitude, it should be no wonder to you why some citizens of the world reflect so negatively on Americans like you.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman
 


Furthering exactly why I said it seems some Americans are confused about socialism. Socialism isn't Marxism, Communism, Fascism. Thank You.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman
 


Riiiight. Bravo, alpha male. Since you have such a grandiose attitude, it should be no wonder to you why some citizens of the world reflect so negatively on Americans like you.


I am not a citizen of the world. I am a US citizen.
Again, I do not need your take on my country. I have yet and will never start a thread, or voice why I think your country is wrong or so on.
That is the main difference. I am fine with how you and your country operate. I don't really care. It is your country.
I expect the same.
As for a negative view of me, don't really care. I don't live my life for you or your beliefs.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:13 AM
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yes, its kind of funny seeing macman whine about other countries injecting their opinions and criticisms on americans. After all, that is the complaints most countries levy against americans. The difference is when us americans inject our opinions and criticism on other nations, we do it with guns and bombs.



posted on Feb, 10 2011 @ 09:16 AM
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Aha! then macman makes another funny comment about how he is fine with how other countries operate! While at the same time he pays taxes to our nation, which go to bombing other nations and stealing their natural resources. Most likely supports sweat shops and child labor too by wearing nikes and shopping at wal mart. All while probably defending "personal responsibility"



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