If you worship nothing....

reply to post by Ellie Sagan


Everyone worships something. Whatever you spend your time, talents and treasure on is what you worship. That's what worship means = "Worth" + "Ship".

I am really thankful for all the responses and it has helped me see one thing, and that is that I don't think I need to worship someone or something at all. It seems silly that I needed others to help me see it. I guess that's what we're here for though, to help others find their way. I think I felt that I needed to because I always have to varying degrees followed the christian way of thinking, more so as I got older. When I was a kid I went to church with my grandma, but when I got older I got very deep into a strict bible based charismatic church. I think it's called brainwashing?

Thanks to you all... but I still want to see what other say if they decide to post here.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Everyone worships something. Whatever you spend your time, talents and treasure on is what you worship.

But as the word is commonly used today, its meaning is a bit more than 'worthiness'. I spend time on music, art and cooking, but I don't worship them, as the word is commonly used. Neither do I worship my husband or dogs... well, maybe the dogs. LOL

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Everyone worships something. Whatever you spend your time, talents and treasure on is what you worship.

But as the word is commonly used today, its meaning is a bit more than 'worthiness'. I spend time on music, art and cooking, but I don't worship them, as the word is commonly used. Neither do I worship my husband or dogs... well, maybe the dogs. LOL

Words change meaning and definitions all the time. Today "cool" "hot" and "gay" all mean entirely different things than they did even 50 years ago. The concepts never change however. We were created as worshipers and even if we don't worship God we find other things to worship. Even in Christian church the idea is "worth" + "ship", we sing songs, tithe, and study God's word because we ascribe worth to it.

Everything you have described are good things, don't get me wrong, but if they take the place of God in your life it's idolatry. God gave us everything you listed to enrich our lives and to bless us, but created things should never take the place of the Creator. Even if people do not honor God they still are creatures created to worship and will worship other things by spending a great deal of their time, talents, and treasures upon.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Everything you have described are good things, don't get me wrong, but if they take the place of God in your life it's idolatry.

They don't take the place of God. There is no "place of God" in my life, so nothing can take that place as it doesn't exist. And I don't want to derail the OP's thread, so I'll not comment on this particular line of discussion further, unless the OP asks about it. You can find many threads in which to discuss and debate the existence of God.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Did you read my entire reply?

Even if people do not honor God they still are creatures created to worship and will worship other things by spending a great deal of their time, talents, and treasures upon.

I know who you are and know your beliefs about God from past exchanges.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I have a problem with what you say here about putting God first. I was taught to think this very same way when I was in the church. The problem I have is this, if God wants to be put first in your life then that means you serve Him over your fellow man, your spouse, your children. What kind of god would do that? A loving god would want you to put others before yourself, because it is good and right, not because he told you to. If you believe this then you would sacrifice your child in favor of god or you would leave to go on missions trips (or whatever if it serving god) against your spouse's wishes, etc. There are a great many things that don't make sense to me regarding religion, and this has to be one of the worst to me. God wants us to live for him and no one else? Essentially that is what it means, no matter how you try to explain it away. I do not want to worship or serve a god like that. I love my family first.

reply to post by Ellie Sagan


Serving others and putting them and their needs before one's own needs is an act of worship to God. It's honoring and complying with His Word to do this. Christ's two commandments under the New Covenant He began at Passover was summed up by this: 1. Love God, 2. Love people.

[If you worship nothing...]

everyone has worthiness in something, it is either an 'external' force of goodness or even the opposite.

if one does not place worth in the external then it is usually placed in the 'internal' which is self-deism and idolatry, there are lessons to be learned of this practice from history and in many cultures.

Pharaoh, Hitler, ect... ?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


No. I don't buy this. There are many people who take care of others and put them first and it's not because they are obeying and worshipping god. People are capable of having good hearts and not being a christian. Is it really so good to do good things if the only reason you do them is because someone told you to do it? I don't think you really saw what I said.

It's like saying if you are not a christian and you don't do good in service to the god of the bible, then your good works mean nothing. That is what the church teaches now that I think about it. How narrow minded. I speak from experience by the way. I was raised with a christian mindset, went to a Baptist church as a child, and spent 11 years in a Pentacostal/Charismatic church. I was a well respected and "good" church member. I taught the kids and I helped all the time with all manner of outreach activities and also did the dirty work that never gets any mention. So I know where you are coming from with your mindset. I used to be like you.

Originally posted by Ellie Sagan
A loving god would want you to put others before yourself, because it is good and right, not because he told you to. If you believe this then you would sacrifice your child in favor of god or you would leave to go on missions trips (or whatever if it serving god) against your spouse's wishes, etc.

Yes, the god of the Christian religion is a very insecure and jealous fellow, needing to be held up as "number one" in the lives of his minions. This leads me to wonder how he can be omniscient and omnipotent when he needs the people so... to prove that they love him most. He apparently would ask his worshipers to give up their children for him if it came down to it... And from what I've read and heard, they would gladly do it.

It reminds me of how people are expected to give up their earthly possessions and ties with their families when they join a cult. To prove to the cult leader that he is the most loved and important person in their lives. It cuts out the competition...

I'm not in the habit of criticizing religion, but this is one aspect that I think reveals a huge flaw in the system. I don't hold a belief in any gods, but if I did, I don't think they would be so needy, selfish or jealous.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
if one does not place worth in the external then it is usually placed in the 'internal' which is self-deism and idolatry, there are lessons to be learned of this practice from history and in many cultures.

Your basic assumption - that one who doesn't worship something external is worshiping something internal - is flawed. There are millions of people that don't worship your god and we don't think of ourselves as gods. The comparison is ludicrous.

Pharaoh, Hitler, ect... ?

Pardon me? Pharaoh? Did you have to go back 3500 years to find someone who 'worshiped themselves' to prove your point? Sorry, I'm not buying this idea. Of course, I know that doesn't matter to you. You must spread your religious hatred all you can, by comparing atheists to the Pharaohs and Hitler... Carry on.

And Hitler was a religious man.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Your basic assumption - that one who doesn't worship something external is worshiping something internal - is flawed. There are millions of people that don't worship your god and we don't think of ourselves as gods. The comparison is ludicrous.

Well I, for one, do indeed think of myself as god. But then again, I see a rock as being as much of a god as myself. Everything is the creator to me, but then again I have always been told that I look at the world different than most people.

To worship god is to worship life itself and everything in it. I sure don't need to give away any of my belongings to do so nor to follow any other precept other than love.


with respect..

Originally posted by tribewilder

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Your basic assumption - that one who doesn't worship something external is worshiping something internal - is flawed. There are millions of people that don't worship your god and we don't think of ourselves as gods. The comparison is ludicrous.

Well I, for one, do indeed think of myself as god. But then again, I see a rock as being as much of a god as myself. Everything is the creator to me, but then again I have always been told that I look at the world different than most people.

To worship god is to worship life itself and everything in it. I sure don't need to give away any of my belongings to do so nor to follow any other precept other than love.


with respect..

that's very admirable... we Jedi do not view ourselves as god, but just like everything else you mentioned like a rock ect... we are just a part of the whole that is the great Force.

are rocks living things ? I've heard it said you can't get blood from a stone...

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
if one does not place worth in the external then it is usually placed in the 'internal' which is self-deism and idolatry, there are lessons to be learned of this practice from history and in many cultures.

Answered by Benevolent Heretic
Your basic assumption - that one who doesn't worship something external is worshiping something internal - is flawed. There are millions of people that don't worship your god and we don't think of ourselves as gods. The comparison is ludicrous.

I didn't ask for people to worship a God here, least I don't think I have, did I ? I simply made an observation... that some place trust in themselves while some place trust in others.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
Pharaoh, Hitler, ect... ?

Answered by Benevolent Heretic
Pardon me? Pharaoh? Did you have to go back 3500 years to find someone who 'worshiped themselves' to prove your point? Sorry, I'm not buying this idea. Of course, I know that doesn't matter to you. You must spread your religious hatred all you can, by comparing atheists to the Pharaohs and Hitler...

Carry on.

in all actuality I went that far back in time to provide an example of where civilization has already been and provided a recent example for comparison. You do not have to buy facts, truth and facts are free... there is no religious hatred going on here, unless you acknowledge atheism as a religion or something? and constantly attack only the followers of Christ... I will not comment on that. I will however state to you part of the Jedi way which I have recently adopted... the Jedi protect all belief systems and the right to practice any belief one wishes, that is including atheism, we are guardians of the Just and see virtue in many beliefs though many Jedi question the rationality of the atheistic belief structure.

Hitler lost his way or never had it in the first place, he was infected with sociobiology from Darwin's theory of evolution... he used this theory to justify eugenics, it is all very clear also how he played on peoples beliefs. A great user and abuser of a just word.

Originally posted by Ellie Sagan
No. I don't buy this. There are many people who take care of others and put them first and it's not because they are obeying and worshiping god. People are capable of having good hearts and not being a christian.

provide us with some examples of this please... any will do, great people who have went out of their way like many of the Christians missionaries have and even put their lives on the line for their fellow man.

It could be anyone great or small, but a good example would be a notable person we can all connect and relate to... I believe if you find one atheistic missionary you may find that they were doing it for benefit or profit of the self.

The Christians missionaries do it for their fellow man which glorifies their God of the book of wisdom... we Jedi have observed this as fact.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You carry a circle-argument.

reply to post by Ellie Sagan

No. I don't buy this. There are many people who take care of others and put them first and it's not because they are obeying and worshipping god.

Err, where did I say those who put others first do so "because" they are worshiping God in a universal sense? I didn't say that. Now, the folks who DO put others first because God instructs to do so are doing it as an act of worship to Him. Sometimes human natures first response is to curse someone who has done something evil towards you, or who has said something untrue about you. That's human nature. It's also human nature to not love one's enemies, but an act of worship is to love them.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You carry a circle-argument.

Since your rationale is purely arbitrary I assume you'll accept my arbitrary rebuttal.

No, I don't.

reply to post by Ellie Sagan


Hi Ellie,

considering the enormous amount of religionist (and other ideological) 'answers', many of them in violent contradiction with each other and with what's commonly known as 'facts' (what logic/science tell us), it would maybe be a better starting-point to search for a 'common denominator' in the whole 'believe' and 'faith' business.

And that common denominator is the variable 'uniqueness' in each person; what could be called our 'mindsets'. We are our own lenses, perceptual filter-systems, rationalizers and eventually existentially tools.

On the basis of 'mindset' many of us convince ourselves, that we operate with absolutes, while we actually flitter in, out, up and down through levels of feed-back relative realities. Relative realities which through and after careful examination and analyzing can be said to approximately 'true'.

So to return to your initial thoughts, the 'mindset' aspect of worship, can just as well be an expression of general human psychology, instead of an expression of general existential principles (mundane or trans-mundane). MAYBE the drive to worship is a false drive, just as the money-grabbing is for a zillionaire, who wants to be a fanzillionaire.

There are 'schools' of thought operating from such positions, amongst them such worthies as Robert Anton Wilson, Krishnamurti, Charles Fort, Jain, some zen-buddhism and on the practical level those who just contemplate unconditionally.

Choosing this path, the first step would then be to actively get rid ot the 'worship' drive. It's a tough fun-ride, not for weak, you'll need to learn to live without expectations or systematic crutches.

R.A.Wilson once expressed it this way: "You come out on the other side of chapel perilous either stone-paranoid or enlightened".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You wrote to me on:

[("You carry a circle-argument.)]

Your answer:

["Since your rationale is purely arbitrary I assume you'll accept my arbitrary rebuttal.

No, I don't."]

As you so often do, you create your own semantics and logic. For communication purposes please clarify and demonstrate it, before you claim it 'valid' and use it as 'proof' of anything.

I hope, I don't have explain standard logic to you. Joining a forum debate, you should be familiar with the basics of it.