If you worship nothing....

reply to post by bogomil


Interesting... I "created" the idea that that rationality shouldn't be based on arbitrary standards? Are you sure you wish to claim this?

My point remains, if you feel quite justified in making an arbitrary argument, you have to allow me to make an arbitrary rebuttal. Well, that is if you wish to not use special pleading.

With that said, is there a rational reason you claim I'm using 'circular' argumentation?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You wrote:

["With that said, is there a rational reason you claim I'm using 'circular' argumentation?"]


Your chain of reasoning on a series of your own 'absolutes': Your own absolute called 'faith' being justified by your own absolute called a 'god creator' being justified by your own absolute system, you sofar haven't presented in a defined or demonstrated form.

Your rhetorical input of 'arbitrary' is of no consequence, as logic and/or science are very precisely self-defined and as 'relative realities' have demonstrated their value.

You can, at the boundary of western contemporary knowledge, ultimately contest the 'relative realities' of logic and science by presenting your own alternative model. Please do so.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
the Jedi way which I have recently adopted...

Aren't you the one who professed to been an atheist a while back? Then you wanted to be a Jew and a Buddhist in another thread? Correct me if I'm wrong. And now you're a "Jedi"? Pick one.

And you are trying to convert people with in your signature? And I'm supposed to take your position on religion seriously?

All I can say is "may the Force be with you".

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Hi Benevolent

I'm a bit puzzled also, as I've met Cosmic.Artifact in a context, where he seemed to be 'christian' (though without knowing much of the bible).

But maybe he's really taking this with 'faith' seriously, more concentrating on 'faith' per se, rather than focusing on the specific content of the various 'faiths'.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Here is where you said it: "Serving others and putting them and their needs before one's own needs is an act of worship to God. It's honoring and complying with His Word to do this. Christ's two commandments under the New Covenant He began at Passover was summed up by this: 1. Love God, 2. Love people."

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


First of all, look around you, talk to people, there are many who do good things because they want to help other people. Many of them are not christian. Many are of other religions and many are atheist. I even know of someone who is a satanist (not what you might think) and he does good to help others also. I don't know why you need a well known (read: famous?) person to prove the point. I don't feel like looking up famous atheists or buddhists who do good things for other people.

Also, the term "missionary" as I used it meant to go to other lands to teach people about god and jesus, and in the process help them. I am not saying these people don't have love in their hearts but the main purpose is to convert people to christianity. That is what I was talking about there, so no, I won't find an atheist on that kind of missions trip.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
the Jedi way which I have recently adopted...

Aren't you the one who professed to been an atheist a while back? Then you wanted to be a Jew and a Buddhist in another thread? Correct me if I'm wrong. And now you're a "Jedi"?

Pick one.

no actually, I have never been either of what you mention 'yet' but maybe someday I am also a follower of the Christian doctrine, though I am not well versed in it... I have absorbed aspects of many religions in my time in the real-world and in this universe. I do not make a perfect Christian but that is not to say someday I may not convert to pure Christianity. See I am very Vulcan yet very human... "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination's" see there is no shame in conversions and absorptions, although I have never been a follower of Islam yet and doubt I will be because it's philosophy is just not open enough to all.

I should make a good Jedi though, it is a very recent following and is meshes well with new spirituality too.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


You wrote:

[""Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination's" see there is no shame in conversions and absorptions, although I have never been a follower of Islam yet and doubt I will be because it's philosophy is just not open enough to all.

I should make a good Jedi though, it is a very recent following and is meshes well with new spirituality too."]

Syncretism in the form of inductive categorization is one of the most useless forms of 'world-views' in vogue, if not treated with outmost care.

Originally posted by Ellie Sagan
reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

 

First of all, look around you, talk to people, there are many who do good things because they want to help other people.

sorry if I do not go through your whole response here, it does not necessarily mean I do not like you either...

all I am saying is the Christians, like the Jedi help others beyond their means to glorify their deity... those who have no deity besides the self do it to glorify or please the self.

A true atheist would not even acknowledge a Christian or a Jedi, Muslim, Hindu ect, for acknowledgment only proves the doubt and open denial. An Agnostic on the other hand is the only honest position in which to argue with theists.

Originally posted by bogomil
Syncretism in the form of inductive categorization is one of the most useless forms of 'world-views' in vogue, if not treated with outmost care.

Isaac Newton proved Gravity exists as part of what the Jedi call the Force, Gravity has been proven and written into the laws of physics, it is observable and we all feel it and know its effects.

I acknowledge gravity as part of the whole and what the Jedi call the Force... the Christians call the whole God... even if I wanted to worship gravity as a deity (divinity) I would then be somewhat like a Hindu and only worshiping part of the whole... But I acknowledge the Force of all that is good as the whole.

I know this must be very confusing to some, but let's not confuse the "Force" with gravity alone... gravity is only a part of the Force, even though gravity is a force

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


You wrote:

["all I am saying is the Christians, like the Jedi help others beyond their means to glorify their deity... those who have no deity besides the self do it to glorify or please the self."]

One of the present 'fads' is, that theists have copyright on ethics. An should any non-theist accidentially behave ethically 'acceptable', it's from the 'wrong' motives anyway, so it doesn't count.

And here's the beauty of it. Who created this alleged ethical copyright and it's 'proper' use? Theists, ofcourse.

Quote: ["A true atheist would not even acknowledge a Christian or a Jedi, Muslim, Hindu ect, for acknowledgment only proves the doubt and open denial."]

How 'acknowledge'? You mean by accepting extravagant claims without proof?

Quote: ["An Agnostic on the other hand is the only honest position in which to argue with theists"]

That ideal-situation would ofcourse be convenient for theists, especially extremist christian such, who seem to unable to meet opposition.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


You wrote:

["Isaac Newton proved Gravity exists as part of what the Jedi call the Force, Gravity has been proven and written into the laws of physics, it is observable and we all feel it and know its effects."]

And so.....from step one we just skip half-a-dozen logical steps and arrive at some watered out version of 'intelligent design'...AGAIN.

Quote: ["I acknowledge gravity as part of the whole and what the Jedi call the Force... ]

Ackowledging gravity is a wise move, as you would have really big problems denying it. It's completely irrelevant, what label 'jedis' give it.

Whereas:

Quote: ["the Christians call the whole God..."]

it's NOT irrelevant that you return to 'intelligent design' once more. Logic, Dude. Get use to it, it's very popular these days.

Quote: ["But I acknowledge the Force of all that is good as the whole."]

Commendable to acknowledge 'good'. But apart from that you're only presenting an inductive argument.

Quote: ["I know this must be very confusing to some, but let's not confuse the "Force" with gravity alone... gravity is only a part of the Force, even though gravity is a force"]

I doubt that anyone even slightly familiar with science would confuse the 'force' with gravity.

Originally posted by bogomil

One of the present 'fads' is, that theists have copyright on ethics.

actually that would be Socrates and Plato... research is in order of western civilization and social norms.

Originally posted by bogomil
Ackowledging gravity is a wise move, as you would have really big problems denying it. It's completely irrelevant, what label 'jedis' give it.

ok then so I worship gravity... do you deny my deity exists ? and I consider it part of divinity ?

Jedi call gravity = "Gravity"

I am sure you won't... in advance of your response.

See atheists are in fact looking for a bearded man with eyes of fire... seemingly not able to grasp the concept of metaphor and how words induce feelings and images. it is just from too many movies and not enough reading imo.

I am sorry to disappoint you but you will never see the bearded man with eyes of fire... or a Unicorn.

reply to post by bogomil

there is another secret of the force of gravity which you may not realize...

Gravity kills ! literally... for it is the reason why cells of all living things age, it explains the mystery of the winds and tides and waves, it explains the motions of the planets and the movement of the galaxy and the procession of the equinox among many other things... But it does not explain what set the planets in motion.

Newton, what a Master Jedi he was... Einstein would have had nothing to go on if it wasn't for this man... nor half the other theoretical scientists since him.

Gravity is the Law of the jungle and it says... you gonna turn into dust sucka ! but you do not have to be afraid

reply to post by Ellie Sagan


I look to the wonders of the natural world. I look to the wonders of arts, literature, and my personal favorite, film. I look to the wonders we find in everyday acts of compassion and love.

There's more than enough to find in this world.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by bogomil

One of the present 'fads' is, that theists have copyright on ethics.

actually that would be Socrates and Plato... research is in order of western civilization and social norms.

What's the meaning of this statement. Pulling rank to see, who can get the furthest back in history. Jain probably being one of the most likely candidates.

Your point is? Mine was referring to theist claims of ethic superiority as in this quote from you:

["those who have no deity besides the self do it to glorify or please the self."]

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


You wrote:

["ok then so I worship gravity... do you deny my deity exists ? and I consider it part of divinity ?

Jedi call gravity = "Gravity""]

That you worship gravity as a deity/part-of-deity, doesn't MAKE it deity to anyone except you. On my part you can make as many of that kind of claims as you like, if it's important to you, as long as you don't interfere with anybody's life doing it. Which is my only concern regarding you.

You'll have to learn more about logic and science, before you're interesting as an academic sparring-partner for me on the subject.

Quote: ["See atheists are in fact looking for a bearded man with eyes of fire... seemingly not able to grasp the concept of metaphor and how words induce feelings and images."]

Your postulated general knowledge on the atheist mindset seems exaggerated. And the atheists I know certainly understand the concept of allegory/metaphor, only they don't misuse it to the extent you do.

Quote: ["I am sorry to disappoint you but you will never see the bearded man with eyes of fire... or a Unicorn."]

Can live with that, as it's not very high on my list of priorities.

Quote: ["there is another secret of the force of gravity which you may not realize..."]

Sure, you're probably an enlightened sage, handing out 'secrets' when normal knowledge runs out.

Quote: [" But it does not explain what set the planets in motion."]

PLEASE...DO sometime get around to 'intelligent design' (or your version of it), when you eventually realises that that's what you're talking about.

Quote: ["Newton, what a Master Jedi he was... Einstein would have had nothing to go on if it wasn't for this man... nor half the other theoretical scientists since him."]

Your admiration for Newton is very touching and does you honour. Personally I prefer Lao-Tsu and Heisenberg. But there's no accounting for taste.

Quote: ["Gravity is the Law of the jungle and it says... you gonna turn into dust sucka !]

Actually I believe, that you're talking about chemical disintegration.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You wrote:

["With that said, is there a rational reason you claim I'm using 'circular' argumentation?"]


Your chain of reasoning on a series of your own 'absolutes': Your own absolute called 'faith' being justified by your own absolute called a 'god creator' being justified by your own absolute system, you sofar haven't presented in a defined or demonstrated form.

Your rhetorical input of 'arbitrary' is of no consequence, as logic and/or science are very precisely self-defined and as 'relative realities' have demonstrated their value.

You can, at the boundary of western contemporary knowledge, ultimately contest the 'relative realities' of logic and science by presenting your own alternative model. Please do so.

edit on 12-2-2011 by bogomil because: typo

So, basically your answer is no... I do, appreciate your opinions though.