What is with all the threads attacking atheism/atheists lately?

Actually I think it was the Atheists that put banners on buses etc disputing Gods existance rather than Christians putting banners up pulling down Atheists that is the trigger.

All it takes is a little thought to see that one group provoking another kicks something off. Of course the Christians have a more intelligent argument but that statement will cause the Atheists confusion because if they don't believe in God they believe in something else and that in itself is a belief. Very confusing for them really.

reply to post by Condemned0625


That is absurd. You complain that there is a demand of belief (or else), you get upset at that and yet knowing it you do nothing out of outrage that you have no chocie. You do have a choice and the Bible clearly sets that out. It also says some are not called. You would say thats unfair. I would say then seek him. You would say I don't believe in God. I would then say then what are you upset about.

Do you see the stupidity in that argument of someone who doesn't believe in God and yet complains about how unfiar it is for those who don't believe to go to eternal separation from God in loneliness while those who did, live as free spirits forever (it's a spsirit thing not a human body thing).

Thats my issue with Atheists who use your arguement. Now if your right and there is no God, we have lost nothing. But if your wrong, and you were already told the situation, then you still have no right to complain if you find out it's not as you thought.

The Bible is very clear, and you always have had free choice, and if you don't choose and your wrong, there is no one to blame but yourself. The Christians job is to show there is a way out for those that are seeking and are chosen. Thats the command. The job of the Atheist is to shut up and get on with their life because a real Atheist would not be the least bit concerned with people believing in a God because God doesn't exist right?. I believe it shows insecurity in atheists that try to prove otherwise because it makes no sense unless they were trying to make converts to their way if thinking. If your trying to bring people around to another way of thought......

.... and if you can't work where I'm going on that one, there is no hope for you to prve your not in your own religion with your own beliefs.

reply to post by daggyz

Originally posted by daggyz
Actually I think it was the Atheists that put banners on buses etc disputing Gods existance rather than Christians putting banners up pulling down Atheists that is the trigger.

I'm sorry, but a quick Google image search and having lived in the Midwest is enough to know that anti-atheist billboards have been around for a long time. The pro-atheist billboards actually come up in there. The billboards weren't disputing anything, they were community messages such as:

"Don't Believe In God? You're not alone"
and
"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."
and
"Sleep in on Sundays"
and
"You can be good without God"

Whilst the anti-atheist billboards are a lot meaner...

All it takes is a little thought to see that one group provoking another kicks something off.

So disagreeing with Christianity is enough for Christians to right hateful messages?

Of course the Christians have a more intelligent argument

No, they really don't.

but that statement will cause the Atheists confusion because if they don't believe in God they believe in something else and that in itself is a belief.

No, there is such a thing as a skeptical position. It's called first lesson logic. This is literally one of the first things you learn when understanding informal logic.

"I do not believe in any deity" is not itself a belief.

Very confusing for them really.

No, only very confusing to people who don't have the most basic understanding of critical thinking.

Fail

reply to post by daggyz

The Bible is very clear, and you always have had free choice

I see this statement repeated over and over by Christians, that we have free choice in whether we believe in God or not, but I don't understand how this works in practice.

If I do not believe in God, it is because I have sound convictions that God does not exist based on reason, experience, and general lack of evidence to the contrary. Belief in God is not an inherent part of my truth, my worldview, how I perceive reality.

Now in order to change my unbelief to belief in God, I would first need to violate my own integrity and accept something as true that I strongly suspect is false or a delusion.

My choices are therefore between keeping my integrity intact and remaining steadfast in my non-belief on the one hand, or lie to myself and accept what I consider to be an illusion on the other hand.

What kind of free choice is this?

Originally posted by daggyz
The Bible is very clear, and you always have had free choice, and if you don't choose and your wrong, there is no one to blame but yourself. The Christians job is to show there is a way out for those that are seeking and are chosen. Thats the command. The job of the Atheist is to shut up and get on with their life because a real Atheist would not be the least bit concerned with people believing in a God because God doesn't exist right?. I believe it shows insecurity in atheists that try to prove otherwise because it makes no sense unless they were trying to make converts to their way if thinking. If your trying to bring people around to another way of thought......

.... and if you can't work where I'm going on that one, there is no hope for you to prve your not in your own religion with your own beliefs.

Unfortunately your, and all other, irrational beliefs in a deity impact my life. Therefore voicing the concerns I have about waging war, and shaping the society I live in, in the name of a non existent entity (or entities) is something I do.
As an individual your personal belief does not affect me at all. As a destructive and divisive force within society it affects me a great deal.

reply to post by daggyz


I'm not in my own religion with my own set of beliefs. Theists are, not me. Atheism is not a religion and it never will be. I'm not angry at something that doesn't exist because that wouldn't make sense, but I am angry at christians because many of them impose their beliefs upon others when it's not wanted. I was simply pointing out the fact that the character in the book punishes people for not believing and worshiping him. That's called demand. "Do it, or else!" It's clearly there in the book and cannot be denied by any rational person, yet you and other theists deny that your concept demands respect and punishes those that don't respect it. Not that I'm worried about it though. It's all imaginary.

reply to post by daggyz


You wrote:

["The Christians job is to show there is a way out for those that are seeking and are chosen. Thats the command. The job of the Atheist is to shut up and get on with their life because a real Atheist would not be the least bit concerned with people believing in a God because God doesn't exist right?"]

No, the god in the bible is a fantasy, but invasive christian evangelists are unfortunately a reality. And they have created problems for mankind some 1500 years.

Quote: ["I believe it shows insecurity in atheists that try to prove otherwise because it makes no sense unless they were trying to make converts to their way if thinking. If your trying to bring people around to another way of thought......"]

That 'insecurity' cr*p again.

And btw, some people CAN be happy without missionary fanatism.

"I do not believe in any deity" is not itself a belief.

Actually, it is a belief, but it's generally treated as a self-proving statement, more as a courtesy than as a finding of fact, since human self-knowledge is imperfect.

The more urgent difficulty is that you apparently assent to messages such as:

"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life"

and

"You can be good without God"

These are unhedged statements of belief. And, even if they somehow happen not to express your own individual beliefs, they do express something that other atheists believe, and have even devoted resources to publicizing. If you do personally disagree with these statements, then you omitted that from your discussion of their merit as "community" messages.

So, it is reasonable to conclude, based on your own testimony, that atheists typically do have beliefs beyond "I don't believe in any deity."

It would also be reasonable to say that there are people who aren't atheists who also believe that, but who do not believe, say, "There's probably no God."

reply to post by eight bits

Originally posted by eight bits

"I do not believe in any deity" is not itself a belief.

Actually, it is a belief, but it's generally treated as a self-proving statement, more as a courtesy than as a finding of fact, since human self-knowledge is imperfect.

It is not a belief, it is a statement of absence of belief. Now, if you're going to take the statement of the absence of belief as a statement of the belief of the absence of belief, then you're just mixing the discourse up for no reason.

We're talking about the term 'belief' in regards to a positive claim on the existence of deities. Sure, my negative rejection of all deity claims that I am aware of implies that I believe that I reject them, but then you just get into an infinite regress of 'belief'.

The more urgent difficulty is that you apparently assent to messages such as:

"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life"

and

"You can be good without God"

Hey, they're billboards and bus signs. Didn't I reference these right here?

These are unhedged statements of belief.

Unhedged? "Probably" is a word used to hedge. And "You can be good without God" is a statement that can be proven, it's an entirely separate statement to this discourse.

And I'll agree with the statement that there probably is no deity because it is hedged. There might be one, I don't know, I might be wrong, I might be right. Of course, that's a statement of personal reasoning, it's not a necessary conclusion of being an atheist. Some atheists don't particularly agree with the message, some do.

And, even if they somehow happen not to express your own individual beliefs, they do express something that other atheists believe, and have even devoted resources to publicizing. If you do personally disagree with these statements, then you omitted that from your discussion of their merit as "community" messages.

I was merely pointing out how they're not hateful, especially when compared to Christian billboards about atheists.

So, it is reasonable to conclude, based on your own testimony, that atheists typically do have beliefs beyond "I don't believe in any deity."

1: "I don't believe in any deity" isn't a belief.
2: Of course atheists have beliefs! Those are just beliefs unrelated to atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with anything beyond the lack of belief in deities.

It would also be reasonable to say that there are people who aren't atheists who also believe that, but who do not believe, say, "There's probably no God."

No, those people are still atheists. They're atheists as they do not believe in any deity.

Again, atheism is not believing in deities. Believe in a deity? You're not an atheist.

Which is why all babies are (implicit) atheists.

reply to post by daggyz


I can't believe I missed this ridiculous post. How did I not already reply to this?

Originally posted by daggyz
That is absurd. You complain that there is a demand of belief (or else), you get upset at that and yet knowing it you do nothing out of outrage that you have no chocie.

Really? Try declaring your atheism is a rural Texas town. See how your small business or employment does afterwards.

You do have a choice and the Bible clearly sets that out.

Except that the Bible is very hazy on the issue of whether or not you have a choice. Pharaoh didn't have any choice in the matter of setting the Jews free. In fact, Yahweh made it so that he specifically would be unable to do so.

It also says some are not called. You would say thats unfair. I would say then seek him.

Bible says a lot of things. And yes, that would be unfair. Of course, I already tried seeking your deity, didn't find anything. Maybe he's hiding in the couch cushions, I didn't check there.

You would say I don't believe in God. I would then say then what are you upset about.

We're upset at the believers who discriminate against us and mistrust us.

Do you see the stupidity in that argument of someone who doesn't believe in God and yet complains about how unfiar it is for those who don't believe to go to eternal separation from God in loneliness while those who did, live as free spirits forever (it's a spsirit thing not a human body thing).

You do realize that's not what we're complaining about. We're saying it's insane, we're not acting like it's actually going to happen. We think that this insanity also results in discriminatory practice against those who believe they're going to groove out with Jesus for eternity.

Thats my issue with Atheists who use your arguement. Now if your right and there is no God, we have lost nothing. But if your wrong, and you were already told the situation, then you still have no right to complain if you find out it's not as you thought.

Wow, Pascal's wager, like I haven't heard that a million times before.

Counterpoint: What if you're wrong and fundamentalist Islam is actually correct? What if you're wrong and Sikhism is correct? What if you're wrong and an ancient religion which has already died out was actually correct? What if you're wrong and should have worshiped Odin?

There are more than two possibilities.

The Bible is very clear, and you always have had free choice, and if you don't choose and your wrong, there is no one to blame but yourself.

The Bible is very vague, there is no clear scriptural basis for Arminianism (the position on salvation which you are taking) over Universalism or Calvinism.

The Christians job is to show there is a way out for those that are seeking and are chosen. Thats the command.

Wow, you're mixing Arminianism with Calvinism now.

The job of the Atheist is to shut up and get on with their life because a real Atheist would not be the least bit concerned with people believing in a God because God doesn't exist right?

Except for the fact that certain religious beliefs demonstrably corrosive to society. The other thing is that religious individuals are trying to set up society so that their religion is what is fundamentally necessary for membership in the society.

I believe it shows insecurity in atheists that try to prove otherwise because it makes no sense unless they were trying to make converts to their way if thinking. If your trying to bring people around to another way of thought......

.... and if you can't work where I'm going on that one, there is no hope for you to prve your not in your own religion with your own beliefs.

We're not trying to bring people around to another way of thought. We don't go door to door with it, do we? We're just trying to show people that atheism is a perfectly acceptable position. That atheists aren't out trying to rape your pets and eat your children (and yes, I've actually heard such claims leveled against atheists, I used to live in Missouri).

And again, religion is hurting people. Even some of the most seemingly benign religious practices are horrific when you take a step back. Circumcision? That's removing functional nerve tissue that is actually beneficial to genital health for the sake of a deity that has a thing for foreskins. It's horrific genital mutilation and it's being forced upon infants.

It is not a belief, it is a statement of absence of belief.

As I said, there is a convention of polite discourse that extends you a courtesy without regard to the underlying fact. Politeness doesn't make facts, however, and so it seemed worth clarifying the situation. If not for your benefit, then for the benefit of your reader, who might foreseeably be confused to read:

Here is something that I believe.

The preceding sentence was not a statement of belief.

Unhedged? "Probably" is a word used to hedge.

Sometimes, but not in the billboard instance. Probably in this case is an assertion that the question is contingent. That is contrary to some theists' claim that God's existence is necessary. That the existence question is contingent is yet another thing that atheists typically believe about gods. It is a disputed belief, and rebuttal is not a hedge.

Off the sponsored billboard, whether hedged or not as you personally assent to it, "There probably is no God" states a belief. The belief is not implied by "I don't believe there is a God," so you believe more than that. Since that much was all that was claimed, and the claim is no longer disputed, we can move on.

I was merely pointing out how they're not hateful, especially when compared to Christian billboards about atheists.

To be blunt, I don't see you as competent to testify about any Christian's state of mind. If you found a billboard offensive, then fine, that's self-proving. That the motive of the speaker was hatred is beyond your ken.

And, for a guy who throws around argumentum ad hominem so much, you manage to discuss ad libidum the motives of people who disagree with you. If you have rebuttal against what the billboards say, then let's hear it. What you think of the speaker is best kept to yourself.

Or, in the alternative, rage, rage against the hateful God squad, but then don't pretend that it's only ad hominem when other people discuss persons rather than arguments.

Speaking of ad hominem, I am not an atheist. Quit trying to pass me off as your ally in a dispute where I find your position insupportable. It's your fight, so leave us alone who neither believe in God nor have any quarrel with theists.

-

sorry. didn't read every post here but great!!

it's about time christians started to run out of cheeks.

atheism/atheists is/are a friggin religion too!

then why do they all think the same thing? oh really? you don't?

bs, same as it ever was, one lies and the others swear to it.


screw the trendy bs. god will get you.

reply to post by fooks


Atheism is not a religion. We don't threaten children with hell if they don't convert. We don't have rituals, we don't praise Richard Dawkins or the spagetti monster. We agree on one issue, that's it. Of course all Atheist's don't think alike.

Religion causes prejudice because you have to subscribe to pre-written belief systems, morals and philosophy.

Afterlife including Hell, HEaven and Reincarnation are unprovable claims and are used as bribe tactics to get some to convert in false fear and/or false hope.

god will get you.

That's nice preaching.... Seems like a nice chap - "don't believe in me?" "burn in hell for eternity" - No second chance, no lawyer, no appeal, just BURN.

Btw, does your god reward smuggery? Perhaps cowardice? Hide behind your God and tell me he will get me?

Your attitude is common amongst believers.

Feel free to worship this man-made God.

reply to post by eight bits


Since you seem to be incapable of actually replying to any significant portion of my posts, I'm not going to bother with my normal formatting. Hell, you don't even give the benefit of addressing posts to people, you just leave unattributed quotations dangling out of context.

I've already had this discussion with you, and I'm going to have to just some up the sum total of ignorance displayed in your understanding of this subject in one question:

If atheism is a belief, then how can a negative position exist?

reply to post by fooks

Originally posted by fooks
sorry. didn't read every post here but great!!

It's over 1300 replies now, it's the 6th largest thread in this sub-forum. Nobody expects people to read the full thread at this length. But I'm happy to see someone new joining in and admitting to having not read the full thread.

it's about time christians started to run out of cheeks.

Well, we're all born with 4.

atheism/atheists is/are a friggin religion too!

Nope. You're wrong. Unless you can demonstrate how not believing in any deity is a religion.

then why do they all think the same thing? oh really? you don't?

Nope, we don't. Ask Benevolent Heretic if she believes in the supernatural. I don't, she does. We all have different views on a number of issues, though some members within the group agree on certain things and some don't. The only uniting item of atheism is "I do not believe in any deity"

bs, same as it ever was, one lies and the others swear to it.

This is a harsh accusation. How are we lying? How is it bovine fecal matter?

screw the trendy bs.

Trendy? Atheism is far from trendy in a country where there are people who will actively shun you and ruin your career for being a declared atheist.

god will get you.

And this is the sort of problem I have with religious people. Instead of treating us like human beings, some (and I emphasize some for a reason, because there are a lot of great religious people who don't do this) just make silly statements like "god will get you :lol".

Atheism is the absence of one particular belief while religion is a complex web of traditions and beliefs. They aren’t even remotely comparable.

As I have said many times before. I was born without an instinctive belief in deities and the conditioning never took.
It is not a belief that I have. It is instead the failure to suspend credulity and embrace one.

reply to post by Noncompatible


Unfortunately, some of us took to the conditioning early on...though it didn't stick as well. In retrospect, the first crack in the shell of my belief came in my 6th grade Social Sciences class when the book defined a civilization and gave 'religion' as a prerequisite for a civilization...and I just pointed out the possibility of a hypothetical society that has no religion yet has all of the other factors defined in the book (division of labor, exchange of goods and services, that sort of thing) and just outright went "Wouldn't that be a civilization?"

...I think the teacher just sort of tossed out a "Shut up, it's what the book says" responses. I honestly don't even remember exactly how the teacher responded...hell, I was still a Catholic back then.

madness

If atheism is a belief, then how can a negative position exist?

Is there something about being believed that imperils positions?

Example "The Moon is not made of green cheese" seems to me:

to be one of my beliefs,

to be a position,

to be a negative position, and

to exist.

So, am I wrong about any of those things, in your view?

Even if I look at the self-report "I do not believe that the Moon is made of green cheese," all those checklist items are still true.

Perhaps if you explained what incompatibility you see, then we could make faster progress than me trying to guess.

reply to post by eight bits


It's a negative position within your belief set, it's not a belief. You could believe that the moon is made of green cheese or you could not believe. Being contained within the meta-belief set of an individual, in the accumulated beliefs and lack of beliefs, doesn't make something a belief.

My bananas don't become apples when I toss a bunch of them in a bag with a lot of apples.

I don't get why you're engaging in the worst sort of semantic argument. In this case belief clearly means "Positive assertion". If you consider a negative assertion a 'belief' then we're not talking about the same thing.

The incompatibility is that there are two things: beliefs and absences of beliefs. A lack of belief in a deity is the absence of a belief, not a belief.

Being nude isn't a type of wearing clothes.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

I don't get why you're engaging in the worst sort of semantic argument. In this case belief clearly means "Positive assertion". If you consider a negative assertion a 'belief' then we're not talking about the same thing.

The incompatibility is that there are two things: beliefs and absences of beliefs. A lack of belief in a deity is the absence of a belief, not a belief.

Being nude isn't a type of wearing clothes.

"absence of belief" implies factual knowledge! Since you *believe* dieties do not exist that makes you an athiest believer. Honestly I cannot comprehend why you dispute this point so vigorously! If you/we knew god did not exist than it would stop being called a belief.....

Your simply arguing that a negative position cannot exist. An analogy would be saying negative numbers do not exist when we know they do. Does that clear your confusive state?