More photos of chemtrails in Vancouver Canada / Responce from aviation investigator

What is happening? I mean really.....leave the internet? And now you are taking pop-shots at my avatar? How low will someone sink?

I believe that I have tried to be civil up to this point...and I will continue to do so. All I ask is that you Mr. Goose, look back up at the history of our little discussion and.....well just look at it.

CHEMTRAILS....

reply to post by weedwhacker



Ok I understand why there is so much resistance to the idea that there is anything in these clouds other than air and water... I'm not going to pretend i totally get the way clouds work, that would take more than a couple of hours im sure but...

There does seem to be facts supporting the idea that aerosol spray IS being considered for wide spread use in order to combat global warming. From what i have been able to find it is all still in testing and debate stages but it is real.



maybe someone can hear the audio in the second one but i can only make out a bit of it

I'm not saying that this is evidence that this is going on now, but if it was, how could you tell the difference between a regular cloud and an aerosol cloud.

Just like Big Farm it is far too costly to conduct the amount of tests that are needed to ensure the process or product is 100% safe and usually it is found out after mass production and consumption. Why would this be any different? How would they know for sure unless they did it?

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by tom goose

 

Because it's water ice particles created by the rapid cooling at around -40c, they stay around in the air just like clouds do.

Does this mean another plane can come in and use weather modification techniques after these previous water ice particles have been laid?

I'll just leave these here for your perusal, interesting information that might help:

en.wikipedia.org...

And this:

www.rigorousintuition.ca...

This too:

The ROTHR system has been operational with the U.S. government for over 15 years, supporting the counter drug mission in the Caribbean Sea and South America, and early warning detection for Navy vessels at sea. Each radar provides in excess of 2.5 million square miles of coverage area resulting in extremely low operational costs. Each ROTHR system operates 24/7/365 and detects in excess of 350,000 targets per year. It is currently the U.S. government's primary surveillance system for the counter drug mission.

www.raytheon.com...

reply to post by AutOmatIc


I'm not seeing your point, here.

Over The Horizon Radar?? Is applicable, how? Firstly, in this modern age (unlike when it was initially developed, during the 1950s/1960s, part of the Cold War, for early warning defense purposes) today, we have satellites to monitor and serve that function. The relatively cheap use for drug traffic intercession is logical, since it requires less sophisticated (less expensive) technology than satellites...and sats are tasked to other purposes.

The Wiki article is informative on that history of OTHR....and on another KEY and vital metric. The part of the atmosphere that is utilized....the ionosphere. You see, your next link was to a blog discussion RE: "barium"...purportedly as a reflective "layer" to facilitate OTHR? AND, in the discussion, it was (rightly) mentioned as unfeasible, and not actually occurring.

But, back to the ionosphere....seems that some lessons are in order. The ones (and I am not claiming this on you) who wave their hands frantically about so-called "chemtrails" being "sprayed" by airplanes have a serious lack of science knowledge, and common sense. Because, they are ill-informed as to our own Earth's atmosphere, and its structure.

The ionosphere doesn't even begin until a height of about 40 miles!!! There is NO AIRPLANE that can fly that high!! So, certainly, NO AIRPLANES are "releasing or spraying barium" into the ionosphere!!

And, the ionosphere is kind of a misnomer...at that height, we are well above anything "breathable"...it's not really air, either in that sense. Read the links....it is a result, actually, of the Sun's radiation and streaming particles interacting with the upper parts of the Earth's lower atmosphere....and the magnetic field is involved, too.

www.buzzle.com...

Also:

Ionosphere
The ionosphere is a layer of the earth's atmosphere that is weakly ionized, and thus conducts electricity . It is located approximately in the same region as the top half of the mesosphere and the entire thermosphere in the upper atmosphere, from about 40 mi (60 km), continuing upward to the magnetosphere.

In the ionosphere, the molecules and atoms in the air are ionized mostly by the Sun's ultraviolet, x-ray, and corpuscular radiation, and partially by cosmic rays, resulting in ions and free electrons. The ionization process depends on many factors such as the Sun's activity (e.g., sunspot cycles), time (e.g., seasonal or daily changes), or geographical location (different at polar regions, mid-latitudes or equatorial zones).

www.encyclopedia.com...

Of course, Wiki has good articles too.


The fact that certain EM waves, in the lower frequency ranges, and thus longer wavelengths, will "bounce" or reflect off of the ionosphere has been known for many decades. Ask any ham radio hobbyist. In aviation, we use the principle too, for long-range radio communications when out over the oceans, and too far for VHF line-of-site radio reception. (We call it "HF", for 'high frequency'. You look on an EM spectrum chart, and see that the range of HF is just below VHF...just nomenclature). AM radio is in the same range...while FM radio is up in the VHF bands.

SO, you see...there are a LOT of different sciences to understand, on this topic, in order to sift through all of the DISinformation that is spewed by the "chem"-trail hoax pushers......

reply to post by weedwhacker

Reflective materials may not be used to aid communication, but said materials might be effective with bouncing harmful radiation before it causes more heat on the surface. Contrails are known for trapping greenhouse gasses under the cloud layer. Adding a reflective particle to the contrail will bounce up just as much radiation as gases it is trapping underneath.

reply to post by tom goose

What did you not understand about the response you were given? Yes, contrails grow. It's part of physics. The contrail comes out of the engine very hot and very wet, like any combustion event. They also provide hydrocarbons as soot, also like any combustion event. Because of the extreme cold, the water turns to ice crystals. These ice crystals and the soot provide the atmosphere at that level nucleation particles for the water already in the air as invisible water vapor to condense into more ice crystals, which produce more, until the chain reaction slows and stops. That's the reason humidity (relative humidity, vapor point......when you look at the sources listed previously that will be explained further) is a factor in whether or not a contrail will stick around for a while, or persist. If they persist they will be shaped by wind and blown around or away. When the atmosphere where the trail is becomes drier (mixing with a drier region for example) the contrail will dissipate.
Just like clouds. Same forces work in the same way. The only difference between the two is a jet supplied the ice crystals to start the reaction instead of a cloud condensing naturally. It's why you were told above to look at the formation and characteristics of clouds; when you understand that, you'll understand the contrails you see. But really, your pictures show nothing unusual at all. They are contrails, persisting, being blown around and shaped by wind.

reply to post by tom goose

That would be a waste of time and money. Water has an albedo similar or greater to anything proposed to spray. As water is already in the atmosphere, why add something expensive and expensively what won't do any better?
People seem to forget or ignore the characteristics of water in the atmosphere in all states. It's there, it's been there, and it's a major part of the entire world ecosystem.

reply to post by tom goose


You're talking about altering the Earth's albedo. Snow cover is more effective, already, at doing that....it is very reflective.

The over-all area of the globe, at any given moment, is NOT mostly covered by clouds.....the albedo of the Earth averages out for the areas not covered in snow. And, anyone who seriously thinks that we puny humans can affect the Earth to such degrees as claimed by the "chem"-trail crowd of hucksters....using ONLY clouds? Well, just do an Internet search for the total surface area of the Earth, to see how daunting that idea is.

The other concepts that are being looked at....as in the many "Geo-engineering" videos and lectures that are posted in text form?? Again, these are people who are looking with concern (have been, for some time) at global climate, and the potential that Human activity is detrimental, and can "tip the balance" that Nature may not be able to handle on its own. Therefore, with no small amount of ego and hubris, people are studying just which technologies MIGHT be useful and feasible, if it becomes a dire emergency, and the future survival of Humanity is at stake. We aren't anywhere near that, yet......

BTW.....you don't have to take just my word. This topic (so-called "chem"-trails), once it came up, just needed some logic and rational thinking....and my BS Meter went wild. Because, I have too much experience and science knowledge to be fooled, as so many "chem"-trail adherents are.

Also...well, it isn't hard to see photos of the Earth from space, and see that, in fact, there is nothing out of the ordinary, in terms of cloud cover....despite all of the "Chicken Littles" running around hysterically, making these outlandish claims....

reply to post by weedwhacker


Well the one video that i posted was a speech given at the University of Calgary, I would say that this crackpot theory is starting to gain some ground if it being discussed in educational settings.

Aerosol spray as a reflective barrier IS a feasible tactic to stop global warming.

I got your chicken little right here buddy

Originally posted by sterlingmoon

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by tom goose

 

Because it's water ice particles created by the rapid cooling at around -40c, they stay around in the air just like clouds do.

Does this mean another plane can come in and use weather modification techniques after these previous water ice particles have been laid?

No, because there is nothing to modify then. The only actual "weather modification techiques" involve liquid water, not ice water, and its to try to turn that liquid water into ice crystals to speed up the precipitation process. Once a cloud has turned to ice crystals, its basically dead in terms of its dynamics and energy

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
It is my opinion that people should check out the documentary on the chem/cont/chaffe/cloud-seeding trail issue(

) before they make a decision. I personally do not think any intentional nefariousness is going on necessarily, but the guys behind the cloud seeding intentions and practice are in this doc admitting that they are using aluminum and barium and then the guy states that he does not know YET if this practice is harmful to organism, BUT they do it anyway. This is from the horses mouth, not me, so please watch the doc before concluding.

Peace,
spec

That video is complete junk science, and they mislead people over and over. Aluminum is found in nature, and its basically everywhere. To assume that if it is found in nature, that it must somehow come from airplanes, is silly beyond belief

reply to post by tom goose

Well the one video that i posted was a speech given at the University of Calgary, I would say that this crackpot theory is starting to gain some ground if it being discussed in educational settings

It is being theorized. NO idea yet of feasible, plausible and reliable delivery methods, though.

Most promising (but expensive) is using rockets. MORE payload and higher altitudes that way. Airplanes are very limited by altitude. Payload considerations are limiting too....each flight (mission) can only carry so much weight...then, descend, land, re-load, takeoff, climb, repeat...etc. Very time consuming too.

In any case, most of this is academic brain storming. People who use their minds to create these concepts, again....as a "What If" scenario.

I just moved here thinking I would get away from the Chemtrails around San Francisco.
I noticed that as soon as it is a clear sky they start zigzagging the sky. I noticed 4 parallel trails not far from each other within the span of two hours. This was three days ago. These all merged and quickly became clouds.

Wonder about their purpose
- to stop us from the awakening rays that are arriving from the center of the galaxy so we don't have a mass awakening
- a binary weapon being spread
- maybe TPTW are actually helping and are looking for our best interests - NOT LIKELY!

reply to post by true-life


Oh, for crying out loud!!

This was sarcasm, I hope??

Originally posted by firepilot

Originally posted by sterlingmoon

Originally posted by woogleuk
reply to post by tom goose

 

Because it's water ice particles created by the rapid cooling at around -40c, they stay around in the air just like clouds do.

Does this mean another plane can come in and use weather modification techniques after these previous water ice particles have been laid?

No, because there is nothing to modify then. The only actual "weather modification techiques" involve liquid water, not ice water, and its to try to turn that liquid water into ice crystals to speed up the precipitation process. Once a cloud has turned to ice crystals, its basically dead in terms of its dynamics and energy

This may be a completley stupid question but I have read one of things they do with weather modification is to turn hail into rain to diminish damage to crops. Would they be able to do that to these trails to bring them to life so to speak?

Nope. You cant do anything with cirrus clouds anyways, there is not energy in those clouds, its just ice crystals and not a lot of moisture either.

The process of trying to lessen hail damage, it to try and introduce silver iodide (in amounts more than when just trying to help rain) and add more nuclei so that there less water per nuclei and hopefully yield smaller hailstones that could possibly melt.

I once saw a Learjet 35 that had accidentally gotten a bit too close to the hail and suffered a significant amount of hail damage. Everyone joked the the pilots method of hail supression was to break up the hailstones by hitting them with the airplane

reply to post by weedwhacker


This is from Wiki:

Vapour trails or contrails, by affecting the Earth's radiation balance, act as a radiative forcing. Studies have found that vapour trails or contrails trap outgoing longwave radiation emitted by the Earth and atmosphere (positive radiative forcing) at a greater rate than they reflect incoming solar radiation (negative radiative forcing). Therefore, the overall net effect of contrails is positive, i.e. a warming.[5] However, the effect varies daily and annually, and overall the magnitude of the forcing is not well known: globally (for 1992 air traffic conditions), values range from 3.5 mW/m² to 17 mW/m². Other studies have determined that night flights are mostly responsible for the warming effect: while accounting for only 25% of daily air traffic, they contribute 60 to 80% of contrail radiative forcing. Similarly, winter flights account for only 22% of annual air traffic, but contribute half of the annual mean radiative forcing.[6]

This is what i was talking about with the contrails trapping heat underneath the contrail far better than it is at bouncing heat from above back up. I know you guys are saying that there is no need to modify contrails because regular air vapor already does that. This article tells me they dont do it very well. Snow wont work because we seem to be running out of permanent ice to take care of it.

Why airplanes? too expensive! not practical compared to rockets!

But....

If we actually were in dire straits wouldn't airline traffic be the perfect cover? We know that the idea is brought to the table wit geoengineers, but we can only assume that the need for this cover is so dear that informing the public would be dangerous and could crash global markets more than they have been already in the last couple of years. Are people not going to be asking question when there are rockets being launched ever 1000 km2 twice a day? don't you think folks might start getting worried?

I'm might not be looking at this logically from geophysicist point of view, but maybe from a point of view of those that have more control over our daily lives than we would like to believe? You can tell me to get my tin foil hat all you want but i need only ask myself "what would i do if was running sh%t and wanted to continue without anything rocking my boat"

I thank you people very much for this discussion and I'm glad nobody here is trying to link cloud seeding with contrails with chemtrails.

PS. the chemtrail conspiracy would be a good cover to make sure that anyone that ask too many of the right question could easily be lable as a crack pot who thinks the government is out to kill them. I would have done that one too. slick

reply to post by firepilot


My reply was not just to weedwacker, I know both of you are pretty much on the same page i just dont know how list both with quick tabs. I would like to hear your input as well if you care to

reply to post by tom goose


Well...as I've mentioned several times (and the Wiki just repeated, yet again) the net effect of contrails at night (AND any other naturally occurring cloud covers) is to act as a "blanket"...a thermal barrier.

As opposed to in daylight, to be more reflective. Still, did I not post the videos here, this thread? Views from space, showing the entire Earth, better larger views....to get a clear picture that, indeed, there just are not that many clouds, and not that much cover. Certainly not anything out of the ordinary. Contrails have a transient, and likely easily manageable effect. Very small effect.....


And, no. The idea that the entire "chem"-trail phenomenon is somehow an elaborate "plot" to "hide" something else?? Nonsense, sorry. It really is very simple.....some ignorant people (at first) who didn't understand the science....and, when the reaction to what they said was seen by certain other unscrupulous sorts....the sheer gullibility of so many...., dollar signs flashed in their eyes....ways to fleece the sheep swam in their heads. Ideas poured out.


Combine that with the coincidental rise of the Internet (and about umpteen thousand other "conspiracy" ideas...and you see how the age of the "Urban Legend" -- once laughed at as being spread by only a few crackpots -- now has instant transmission ability, to points all over the globe. Increasing the spread of ignorance, which I think is the opposite intent of the Internet, from any quarters.