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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Argument from Satan? Really? Can you please show a single contradiction from this video that doesn't exist in the original Hebrew or Greek?
And you can find all of the listed contradictions in the KJV (which is actually not all that linguistically accurate, which is the exact reason why we have newer translations which attempt to get closer to the original meanings).
I mean, how did Judas die? Obvious, he bought a field with his ill-gotten silver in which he tripped and his guts exploded out of him. And he also felt insanely remorseful, threw the silver out and committed suicide by hanging. Both are in the KJV and the original Greek. Both have different and contradictory theological implications about a major Biblical figure. This isn't a small thing.
Edit: Oh, and I didn't know that 'serious' now means: "People who agree with my narrow theological view".
Serious students of the Bible only accept translations if they can refer back to the original Hebrew and Greek to confirm that translation as the most accurate. Serious students of the Bible make sure to have a working understanding of both language or at the very least an incredibly detailed reference for both languages. They don't accept a translation into a Germanic language for a Semitic language. Hell, a translation of the OT into my people's native tongue is far more accurate than the one found in the KJV.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
False. Modern translations rely on the textus Sinaticus and Textus Vaticanus manuscripts that originated in Alexandria, Egypt. The KJB originates from the Textus Receptus manuscript that originated in Antioch, Syria. Two completely different manuscripts.
Facts and Fables about the KJB
I mean, how did Judas die? Obvious, he bought a field with his ill-gotten silver in which he tripped and his guts exploded out of him. And he also felt insanely remorseful, threw the silver out and committed suicide by hanging. Both are in the KJV and the original Greek. Both have different and contradictory theological implications about a major Biblical figure. This isn't a small thing.
Judas died by hanging. When he fell either by being cut down (Jews never touched a dead body), or fell if the branch he hung himself broke isn't known exactly. But there is no contradiction. One testimony says he hung himself, the other testimony states what happened when his body hit the ground. Perry Stone did a show in Israel at the site of Judas's suicide and the trees lining the gorge above where he hung himself are over 100 feet above the bottom of the valley.
27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
27:2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Edit: Oh, and I didn't know that 'serious' now means: "People who agree with my narrow theological view".
Straw man. The Textus Sinaticus and Textus Vaticanus differ from the Textus Receptus in over 36,000 places in the NT alone and has 64,000 less words than the KJB. Those who made the Textus Sinaticus and Textus Vaticanus were heavily influenced by the Gnostics at Alexandria, Egypt and removed/changes vast amounts of the NT they didn't agree with.
That's precisely why they make Concordances and Greek Lexicons!
I'm sure you're too busy to research this and want to just rest upon your rants above, but for others interested in the history of the completely different manuscripts, their origins, and the people behind them I offer these sources to deny ignorance.
King James Controversy
The New King James Counterfeit
Westcott and Hort
The following quotes from the diaries and letters of Westcott and Hort demonstrate their serious departures from orthodoxy, revealing their opposition to evangelical Protestantism and sympathies with Rome and ritualism. Many more could be given. Their views on Scripture and the Text are highlighted.
Gnostic Gospels Fact VS Fiction
How We Got Our Bible: Old Testament; Chuck Missler Part1
KJV Bible Vs Other Bible Versions Part 1 of 7
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical
And it's more than debatable about which manuscript is better. And the KJV was taken from more than a single source.
Orrrr you could actually read the whole accounts. It's not just the event of death that is different, it's the entire preceding portion. I mean, the way the two versions are told are entirely different to the point where they cannot be reconciled. Hell, lemme just put that up here:.....
Sooo...Judas is distraught and remorseful, tosses the silver back into the temple, and then off himself by hanging...in a non-specific location. Could have been from anywhere, nowhere does it say he hung himself on a cliff.
So...Judas betrayed Jesus, bought a field with his reward, and then fell headlong and bust asunder with his guts coming out. Now, the big difference here is the prologue.
Prologue in Matthew has a distraught Judas toss away the money and then hang himself out of remorse, Acts has an unrepentant Judas buy himself a field his money and then 'falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out'.
So did he throw his money to the Temple...take some of it back, purchase a field, maintain his remorse, then commit suicide from a tree on a cliff in his property which is described as a field, commit suicide, and burst open?
There is no way to reconcile the stories. Story 1: Remorseful dude offs himself after getting rid of his blood money. Story 2: Dude is not remorseful, buys a field, and just dies.
Two. Different. Stories.
So...because they're Gnostics they're wrong? And what does the word difference between two texts in two different languages matter? You do realize that there are 788,280 words in the KJV, right? And where is your justification that the Texti Sinaticus and Vaticanus are less valid than the Receptus? You just said that they're different from the Receptus...and that there are less words in an English text than in a text of a different language....and that they are different.
Sinaiticus is a complete 4th century text and Vaticanus is also from the same time period. Why is it that we shouldn't accept these texts as changed? How is the Receptus more complete?
Or you could bother to learn some stuff that Concordances and Lexicons don't bother with...like more accurate grammar lessons. A serious student would bother to actually study the language fluently enough to be able to read it without a reference. And I've done the Concordance thing (with a Rabbi for the OT, twas quite a long read) and the Lexicon thing...it's no substitute for knowing a language.
Ok...so a bunch of references to books that support the KJV version alone. I'm sorry, but there isn't a reference to a single piece of academic work, merely popular apologetics books.
This has nothing to do with whether or not their translation is correct or not. People not sharing your bias isn't the same as people being incorrect. Some people don't share your bias, that doesn't make them wrong.
Um...I didn't say anything about the Gnostic Gospels, we're talking about translations here.
Chuck Missler? Hmm...the Peanut Butter guy...
I unfortunately don't have time to watch the whole series...but can you maybe tell me some sources he cites?
Ah...another long video series. Text I can go over quite quickly...but a 7 part video series? Can you just make a summary of references to actual translations?
No, it doesn't say that.
But the site of his death is known, it was at Gehenna outside Jerusalem.
This is a steep valley with rock formations all the way up the side. Perry Stone did a video series at the site, the top of the valley is some 100 feet above the valley floor. At the time of Christ the valley floor was a smoldering trash heap, there were no trees down amongst the fire. He hung himself and subsequently fell afterward, either was cut down or the branch he tied himself to wasn't sturdy enough.
1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by BreezeLike
Noah's ark.
That there is enough to show that it was written either by humans or beings with equal knowledge to humans of the time period.
You know what I find odd? You theomatics people never seem to be able to describe your idea for yourselves. I've never seen a person who mentions theomatics actually explain what it is, they simply say that theomatics proves the Bible and then they provide a link. Doesn't that strike you as a bit of an odd way to conduct a conversation?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by BreezeLike
Provide the formula and provide the statistical analysis that shows that it is of such low probability. Trust me, I know statistics. I can actually show you how this is all mathematical wizardry.
And even if the mathematical wizardry actually meant something, would the demonstrably false parts of the Bible not be enough to create a valid objection?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical
I'm sorry, but it does. I just quoted the Bible.
[citation needed]
He bought the field he died in.
The Matthew story doesn't give him enough time to buy a field.
It says field, not valley.
Whether or not we can take your claim that Judas hung himself and fell is irrelevant, because it still wouldn't match the order of events (which is my point). In Matthew Judas throws the silver back into the temple, while in Acts he buys a field with it.
On top of that, Judas hangs himself prior to Jesus being taken to Pilate. He has an incredibly short time frame to buy the field even if he hadn't thrown out the silver.
In Matthew no place of hanging is mentioned. It doesn't even matter if he hung himself on a tree, as the act of hanging can be performed on something as low as a doorknob.
In Matthew Judas is distraught and kills himself. He feels bad. He rejects his deeds and kills himself. He even gets rid of the payment he got for turning Jesus in. In Acts Judas has time to buy a field with the money he didn't return.
That's enough of a contradiction without mentioning how the death occurred. It's even a more significant difference because it casts a different tone on how Judas felt. In Acts he is punished for a sin he has committed and gained from, in Matthew he is distraught and kills himself.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by BreezeLike
Provide the formula and provide the statistical analysis that shows that it is of such low probability.
Trust me, I know statistics. I can actually show you how this is all mathematical wizardry.
And even if the mathematical wizardry actually meant something, would the demonstrably false parts of the Bible not be enough to create a valid objection?
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by BreezeLike
Provide the formula and provide the statistical analysis that shows that it is of such low probability.
Perhaps it's in the links you remember being shown, but apparently never read.
If you read it, it clearly explains that In ancient Hebrew and Greek text there Alphabet, words and sentences where of numerical value. All these equal numbers, for example Jesus in Greek has a numerical value of 888. Example shows the importance of this
www.theomatics.com...
The formula is in Ancient Hebrew and Greek text.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical
I'm sorry, but it does. I just quoted the Bible.
Whoa, slow down cowboy. When I said, "No, it doesn't say that." it was a direct reply to the post you made saying: "nowhere does it say he hung himself on a cliff." But it's deduced from the location of the Temple, the city-dump Gehenna, and the location that's known about the suicide.
Why are you so uptight over this???
[citation needed]
Let me get it, have to find the Perry Stone videos I'm remembering on the subject.
He bought the field he died in.
Yes, but it's unknown whether it was directly or indirectly from the text. It's not stated by the writer.
So since it's not stated in the text explicitly, why are you allowed to make an argument that's conjecture and I am not??
You should afford me the same grounds you yourself are using. Besides it a fallacy to argue this way.
The Matthew story doesn't give him enough time to buy a field.
It doesn't give a time-line, only an order of events.
It says field, not valley.
Read Madness. HERE (And of it please)
Whether or not we can take your claim that Judas hung himself and fell is irrelevant, because it still wouldn't match the order of events (which is my point). In Matthew Judas throws the silver back into the temple, while in Acts he buys a field with it.
It's two different perspectives of the same story Sir. One from a man who saw it happen (Matthew), and another (Luke) from interviews of others (plural) who remembered the event.
On top of that, Judas hangs himself prior to Jesus being taken to Pilate. He has an incredibly short time frame to buy the field even if he hadn't thrown out the silver.
You're acting like it was New York City. It was Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. If you'd look at the map, one could walk from one side of the city to the other in 2 hours.
In Matthew no place of hanging is mentioned. It doesn't even matter if he hung himself on a tree, as the act of hanging can be performed on something as low as a doorknob.
You're offering nothing more than conjecture Madness, again I'll ask why yours is allowed as an argument but mine is not??
In Matthew Judas is distraught and kills himself. He feels bad. He rejects his deeds and kills himself. He even gets rid of the payment he got for turning Jesus in. In Acts Judas has time to buy a field with the money he didn't return.
No, read the link I provided you with, it's the same account, written from two perspectives.
That's enough of a contradiction without mentioning how the death occurred. It's even a more significant difference because it casts a different tone on how Judas felt. In Acts he is punished for a sin he has committed and gained from, in Matthew he is distraught and kills himself.
You can think so Madness, but just know your rationale for rejecting the story are based on your conjectures, and the link provided has very acceptable reconciliations for the two accounts.
You're really straining at a gnat, and creating a contradiction where IMHO there isn't one. There are separate details of the same suicide.
Originally posted by BreezeLike
I am in the act of studing it now and learning ancient hebrew and plan to learn Greek. But you plan to show how something with this probability is wizardry.
This is an example some basics
www.theomatics.com...
www.theomatics.com...
www.theomatics.com...
www.theomatics.com...
www.theomatics.com...
You have a better chance of hitting the lottery multiple times than disproving theomattics.
Theomatics 31,608,834,590,000,000,000,000,000 to 1
Hitting the lottery 18,000,000,000 to 1
But theomatics is not the only code in the Torah(Bible)
More on Torah codes
www.youtube.com...
The whole book is like a matrix, codes on codes. My intention is for you to see Gods works.
But it's deduced from the location of the Temple, the city-dump Gehenna, and the location that's known about the suicide.
Also, it's induced, not deduced. You're using inductive reason, not deductive.
Just a quick logic lesson, just because misuse of the word 'deduce' is a pet peeve (it's why I can't read Sherlock Holmes anymore).