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Steps to buy a gun in America an FYI

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posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 08:27 AM
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There is apparently a lot of confusion, misunderstandings and assumptions about gun ownership here and what it takes to own one. This is an attempt to clear up any confusion.

For everybody in every state when a firearm is purchased from a licensed dealer either at a shop or a gun show that licensed dealer has to complete with you this form for over the counter purchases. When you've completed the form the dealer calls NICS to check your info (mostly your answers to section 11 of the form) with the gov's database.

If the database clears you in most cases you can walk out the door with your new gun. Some states, such as CT, will require a waiting period before you can actually pick up the firearm. To get around this waiting period, in CT, you need a state pistol permit which essentially means you have to pass the same NICS background check twice and give the state a whole bunch of money. Redundant and useless yet mandatory.

It is unlawful to sell a firearm to a non resident of your state. If I wanted to buy a firearm from Nevada for instance it would have to shipped to an FFL in New Hampshire where I would then go fill out the form 4473, wait for the NICS check then pick up the firearm.

NICS:

Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isn't otherwise ineligible to make a purchase.


Same goes for non-FFL or private sales. I cannot knowingly sell a firearm to a non-resident of New Hampshire or anyone who would not pass the NICS check. If I do my ass is in big trouble. Which is why most private sales will ask to see the state pistol permit of the buyer just to be sure that the buyer is a resident and will pass a NICS check to cover my ass from any legal trouble. Some states, again CT for example, have their own database of state issued permits. When making a private handgun sale in CT you have to call the state and run the buyers permit number yourself for the required paperwork which is then mailed to the police department of the buyers home town as a record. This is only for states with a similar system of state permitting and registry. Of course if you have already earned a permit you have already passed NICS and this is all redundant. Redundant and expensive.

States will vary on things like waiting periods and permits but by and large the steps are find the gun you want, fill out the form 4473, get your NICS check done (takes anywhere from a few seconds to an hour), hand over your payment, walk out the door.

I just want people to know what is required of a purchaser. At the very least I hope this puts an end to gun control proponents suggesting we implement things that are already implemented. It also proves there is no "gun show loophole" unless the loophole is committing the crime of unlawfully transferring a firearm to an individual who cannot lawfully receive said firearm in the first place such as a non-resident of your state or an individual who would not pass a NICS check. That's no more a "loophole" than buying a hot gun off of some guy in a van downtown is.

If you're from a state with it's own CT, MA, NY or CA style nuance please share it. And if I've said something that's wrong or inaccurate please let me know and I'll fix it.




posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 08:55 AM
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I find it scary that a lot of people don't know the process for purchasing a firearm.
But I also think it really isn't a big surprise that people aren't informed.

Funny though, that most anti's don't know the process in the first place.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:06 AM
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I'm going to post a large section of stuff regarding federal law. This information can be found on the website of nearly every state's Department of Justice.


A. Federal Requirements
Unless an alternative is recognized, if an individual wants to purchase a firearm
from a licensed dealer, the dealer must contact the FBI’s NICS Operations Center by
telephone. 18 U.S.C. 922(t)(1)(A) The dealer will provide pertinent information about
the purchaser to the NICS Center, which will conduct a check of the available data to
verify or deny the individual’s eligibility to receive or possess firearms.

2
The NICS databases will include:
1. Illegal/Unlawful Alien Files
2. Controlled Substance Abuse Files
3. Dishonorable Discharge Files
4. Citizenship Renunciant Files
5. Mental Commitment Files
6. Wanted Persons Files
7. Domestic Violence Protection Order Files
8. Criminal History Files
28 CFR 25.1

Prior to the sale taking place, the firearm’s dealer will have the purchaser complete
and sign BATF Form 4473, Firearms Transactions Record. 27 CFR 478.124(a) The
dealer will then verify the identity of the purchaser by examining a government issued
photo identification card (for example, a driver’s license). 27 CFR 478.124(c)(3)(I) The
dealer will then contact NICS. The NICS Center will respond to the dealer with either a
“proceed,” “denied” or “delayed” response. If a “denied” response is received, the dealer
will provide the person with literature on their appellate rights. If a “delayed” response
is received and there is no additional response from the system, the sale can take place
after three (3) business days have elapsed. 27 CFR 478.102(a)(1) Federal Firearms
Licensees’ (FFLs) must keep a copy of each BATF 4473 for which a NICS check has
been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was completed.


Many gun dealers will not release the gun even if the NICS check takes more than 3 days. It is completely up to them. Most will not because they don't want to give out a gun to a potentially dangerous person. Also they don't want to be in the middle if the ATF or FBI come looking for the person and the gun.


Transfers of firearms to law enforcement officials for their official use are exempt from the provisions of the Brady Law, when the transaction complies with the conditions set forth in the federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.134. In general, the purchaser must provide a certification on agency letterhead, signed by a person in authority within the agency (other than the officer purchasing the firearm), stating that the officer will use the firearm in official duties, and that a records check reveals that the purchasing officer has no convictions for misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence. If these conditions are met, the purchasing officer is not required to complete a Form 4473 or undergo a NICS check. However, the licensee must record the transaction in
his or her permanent records, and retain a copy of the certification letter.


That is the end of my federal section. I will post information directly related to North Carolina shortly.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by macman
 


Ignorance is necessary for fear and control.

reply to post by MikeNice81
 


Awesome.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


re: The gunshow loophole. It still exists, and there is currently no way of causing a non-FFL seller to perform a background check at a gunshow, with a few exceptions. (See bold paragraph below) To my knowledge, this does not affect private, in home sales, at all.


U.S. federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce, or those who are "engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, to hold a Federal Firearms License and perform background checks through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System...



however, individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale (although even private sellers are forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms).


en.wikipedia.org...

This causes people to profess to be psychic in determination of who is legal and who is not, to purchase a firearm in a gunshow and/or during a private sale.


The term "Gun Show Loophole" has been contentious with gun rights advocates, however. They claim there is no "loophole," only a long-standing tradition of free commerce between private parties that heretofore has not been restricted in the context of secondary, intrastate firearm sales.[10][11] Furthermore, they argue that the term "Gun Show Loophole" is misleading, as private firearm sellers are not required to perform background checks regardless of location—whether they are at a gun show, a flea market, their home, or anywhere else. They also challenge federal jurisdiction in intrastate transactions between private parties, which they argue exceeds the federal power created by the Commerce Clause.



Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Five states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner.



www.govtrack.us...


S. 843: Gun Show Background Check Act of 2009

This bill never became law.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by Libertygal
 


It isnt a loophole. It's illegal transfer of a firearm. The crime at a gunshow isnt any different than the crime out on the street. Because it's taking place at a gunshow though it gets a cute name and all sorts of ridiculous attention from the gun control proponents.

Funny enough, before the Clinton administration started revoking FFL's by the truckload most of those "private sellers" at gun shows had FFL's and would now be able/required to use the NICS system. Currently you need an FFL # to use it so even if you wanted to you couldnt check anybody.

Which is why state permits are valuable for sellers when making a private sale.
edit on 20-1-2011 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


If the sale takes place in none of the states listed above, there is nothing illegal about it. I can sell my guns to anyone, and am not required to do a background check. I could go to a gunshow and rent a booth and do the same, quite legally.

Now, what you are seeming to claim is some FFL owners *did* sell illegally? That's been proven, but it still has no cause nor effect on private sales, and the laws in many states governing such.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by Libertygal
 


You cant knowingly sell your gun to a non-resident or anyone who is otherwise restricted from owning a firearm in any state.

The problem is you dont know if the buyer has a criminal background or is mental deficient. You're taking a big risk by selling a firearm to somebody you dont know.

By federal law nobody can sell a gun to anyone who:


The following classes of people are ineligible to possess, receive, ship, or transport firearms or ammunition:

* Those convicted of crimes punishable by imprisonment for over one year, except state misdemeanors punishable by two years or less.
* Fugitives from justice.
* Unlawful users of certain depressant, narcotic, or stimulant drugs.
* Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution.
* Illegal aliens.
* Citizens who have renounced their citizenship.
* Those persons dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces.
* Persons less than 18 years of age for the purchase of a shotgun or rifle.
* Persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle.
* Persons subject to a court order that restrains such persons from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner.
* Persons convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.


The states you listed either require or do not require the seller check with the states own version of NICS. The federal law stands either way.

As far as actually being prosecuted for selling to an individual who cannot lawfully posses a firearm I dont know what would happen to the seller or what the prosecution would have to prove to nail the seller.

Either way it isnt a special "loophole." It's simply illegal transfer of a firearm.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


Sure you can. Ask to see their ID and have them sign a receipt stating that they are not a restricted person.
Laws or for the law abiding. Locks will only keep out the honest man.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by macman
 


Well, to say you cannot is sort of like saying you cannot drive without a drivers license. Sure you can still drive. It just isnt as kosher as it should be. But if the law finds out and can prove you knew the buyer was ineligible you're screwed.

You're right about locks and laws.
edit on 20-1-2011 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:39 AM
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NC DOJ Laws Regarding Firearms




The Brady Law recognizes certain alternatives to the NICS checks. Since North
Carolina handgun purchase permits qualify as an alternative to a NICS check, a firearms
dealer may conclude a sale of a handgun or long gun without a NICS check, if the
purchaser delivers a valid North Carolina-issued pistol purchase permit to the dealer.


Many dealers will still run a NICS check just to cover their rear end. Pistol purchase permits are good for five years. In that time a lot of things happen. So, dealers still perform a NICS check to cover their rear end.


It is the opinion of the United States Department of Justice that a valid North
Carolina Concealed Handgun Permit may be used as an alternative to a NICS check for the purchase of firearms. Again, multiple long guns may be purchased if they are purchased in a single transaction.


Many dealers will skip the NICS for a concealed carry permit. If you did anything to disqualify you from purchasing a firearm the court will physically take your permit. It is a pretty safe bet that if you have the permit you are still okay.


B. North Carolina Requirements
North Carolina's pistol permitting and concealed carry permit laws qualify as an alternative to the requirements of the Brady Law. Therefore, when a person desires to purchase a handgun from a federally-licensed dealer, the person needs to comply solely with North Carolina's pistol permit laws, and present a valid permit to purchase a
handgun or valid North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit. (Please note: Even if a NICS inquiry by a federally-licensed dealer was done in this circumstance, it does not do away with the necessity for a pistol purchase permit.) As always, any other transfer between private individuals is also governed by North Carolina's pistol permit laws.

Under North Carolina law, it is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to sell, give away, transfer, purchase, or receive, at any place in the state, any pistol, unless the purchaser or receiver has first obtained a license or permit to receive such a pistol by the sheriff of the county where the purchaser or receiver resides, or the purchaser or receiver possesses a valid North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit. This requirement to
obtain a permit prior to the transfer of a pistol applies not only to a commercial transaction, typically at a sporting goods store, but also between private individuals or companies throughout North Carolina. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-402(a)

In addition, this State law has been interpreted to require that a pistol permit be obtained by the receiver of a handgun when such person inherits a pistol as a result of the death of another person. The permit should be given to and retained by the seller or donor of the handgun. In such a case, the permit should be given to the executor or receiver of the estate of the deceased person. If the purchaser or receiver uses a North Carolina- issued concealed carry permit for the transfer, the seller should reference such permit on a bill of sale.

Further, it is unlawful for any person to receive from any postmaster, postal clerk, employee in the parcel post department, rural mail carrier, express agent or employee, or railroad agent or employee, within the State of North Carolina, any pistol without having in his or her possession, such a pistol purchase permit or North Carolina
concealed carry permit.

The requirement of obtaining a permit prior to the receipt of a handgun does not apply to the purchase and receipt of "long guns," such as shotguns and rifles. The fee for pistol permits is set by statute and is $5.00 per permit.


Who issues permits and what information are they checking?


A county sheriff is only authorized under N.C.G.S. § 14-402 to issue a permit to receive or purchase a handgun or crossbow when an application is submitted by a person who is a resident of his or her particular county. The
sole exception is that the sheriff may issue a permit to a non-resident when the purpose of the permit is for collecting. Prior to issuing a permit, the sheriff must fully satisfy himself/herself by affidavits, oral evidence, or otherwise, that the applicant is of good moral character and that the person, firm, or corporation wants to possess the weapon for one of the following purposes:

a. The protection of the applicant’s home, business, person, family, or
property; or
b. Target shooting; or
c. Collection; or
d. Hunting.

Additionally, the sheriff must verify by a criminal history background investigation that it is not a violation of state or federal law for the applicant to purchase, transfer, receive or possess a handgun. The sheriff shall determine
the criminal history of any applicant by accessing computerized criminal history records as maintained by the State and Federal Bureaus of Investigation, by conducting a national criminal history records check, and by
conducting a criminal history check through the Administrative Office of the Courts. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-404
North Carolina law further specifies that a permit may not be issued to the following:

a. An applicant who is under an indictment, or information for, or has been convicted in any state, or in any court of the United States, of a felony (other than an offense pertaining to anti-trust violations, unfair trade practices, or restraints of trade). However, a person who has been convicted of a felony and is later pardoned may obtain a
permit, if the purchase or receipt of the pistol or crossbow does not violate the conditions of the pardon;

b. The applicant is a fugitive from justice;

c. The applicant is an unlawful user of or addicted to marijuana, any
depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug;

d. The applicant has been adjudicated incompetent or has been committed to any mental institution;

e. The applicant is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States;

f. The applicant has been discharged from the U.S. armed forces under dishonorable conditions;

g. The applicant, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced their citizenship;

h. The applicant is subject to a court order that:
(1) was issued after a hearing of which the applicant received actual notice, and at which the applicant had an opportunity to participate;
(2) restrains the person from harassing, stalking or threatening an intimate partner of the person or child of the intimate partner of the person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(3) includes a finding that the person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of the intimate partner or child; or by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury.
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-404

As previously mentioned, federal law prohibits aliens who are illegally in the United States from receiving or possessing firearms. Additionally, subject to certain exceptions, aliens who are in a non-immigrant status are prohibited from possessing or receiving firearms. 18 U.S.C. § 922(d)(5) Therefore, sheriffs must make additional inquiries of applicants for pistol purchase permits to determine their alien status. The sheriff must first determine if the applicant is a citizen. If the applicant is not a citizen, the sheriff must obtain additional information on the person to include their country of citizenship; place of birth; and alien or admission number. If applicable ,the sheriff may have to determine the basis of any claimed exemption from the non-immigrant alien prohibition.
For example, a non-immigrant alien could possess or receive a firearm if he/she is in possession of a valid hunting license issued in the United States; is an official representative of a foreign government accredited to the United States; or has received a waiver by the United States Attorney General. 18 U.S.C. § 922(y)

A court in any domestic violence protective order can prohibit a party from purchasing a firearm for a time fixed in the order. Any person purchasing or attempting to purchase any firearm in violation of such an order is guilty of a Class H Felony. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 50B-3.1


The sheriff will usually ask if you have lived in another county or state in the last decade. If you have they also check the criminal records in that locality. To aid in verifying your good moral character you will usually need at least two notarized character references from non relative residents of the county.

If anyone is interested in the laws regarding concealed carry they can check the link at the top of the page. The legal part of that covers at least six pages in the pdf. So, I am not going to quote it all here.


edit on 20-1-2011 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


The point being, even if you *ask*, the person can lie. There is no way for you deem the sincerity of the purchaser, so the sale is made in good faith. The only time I have seen someone convicted of this was recently, when at a gunshow, a man made a private sale to a hispanic male, and was arrested because he should have known he was an illegal alien. The guy even showed him a valid drivers license, yet, he got sentenced to 6 months in Federal prison, because "he should have known." Really?

Really? So we are supposed to either discriminate against Hispanics, or we best retune our psychic abilities.

Here was an excellent thread on this very topic:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

and HERE is the link to the story.

Gun rights advocates are up in arms that a Texas gun dealer was sentenced to six months in prison for selling a firearm to an illegal immigrant, but a "middle-man" who bought the gun for the immigrant -- and who was in the U.S. illegally himself, but had a valid driver's license -- was never arrested, charged or deported in the case.


edit on 20-1-2011 by Libertygal because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by Libertygal
 


That's crazy. If the seller saw an ID you'd think that was sufficient to keep charges off the seller.

Yes, you never really know who is ineligible and who is not. And the transfer is a crime. But it isnt a "loophole." It's just a crime. It isnt a loophole if I list a gun for sale on Armslist or in the paper and sell it to a felon. It's just a crime. It's isnt a loophole if I set up a van downtown and sell guns out of it to mental patients. It's just a crime.

It isnt referred to as the "van on the corner loophole" or the "Classified ads loophole." So why the "gun show loophole?" To coin a catch phrase a cause can latch onto. A semantic game.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 



Either way it isnt a special "loophole." It's simply illegal transfer of a firearm.


That is an outright fallacy, and I have proven as much in the messages that I have posted.

There is nothing illegal in private firearms sales *UNLESS* you knowingly sell to a criminal. The Federal laws you quoted really have nothing to do with private sales unless the person is knowingly illegally traficking in firearms. It is comparing apples to oranges.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Libertygal

There is nothing illegal in private firearms sales *UNLESS* you knowingly sell to a criminal. The Federal laws you quoted really have nothing to do with private sales unless the person is knowingly illegally traficking in firearms. It is comparing apples to oranges.


Those federal laws that have nothing to do with private sale are what say the thing you said and the thing Ive said about three times now that you cannot knowingly sell to a felon in a private sale.

I dont know how to make it any clearer.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by Libertygal
 


That's crazy. If the seller saw an ID you'd think that was sufficient to keep charges off the seller.

Yes, you never really know who is ineligible and who is not. And the transfer is a crime. But it isnt a "loophole." It's just a crime. It isnt a loophole if I list a gun for sale on Armslist or in the paper and sell it to a felon. It's just a crime. It's isnt a loophole if I set up a van downtown and sell guns out of it to mental patients. It's just a crime.

It isnt referred to as the "van on the corner loophole" or the "Classified ads loophole." So why the "gun show loophole?" To coin a catch phrase a cause can latch onto. A semantic game.


I agree with you on that last statement. BUT... you are focusing on illegal sales only. Lets look at it another way.

There is no crime unless a law was broken. So far, I have shown you where a law to close that loophole has not been passed. It is a loophole, technically speaking, because the Brady Law did not take gunshows and private sales into account. Claiming it is semantics is a fallacy, because no law is written, hence, no crime is taking place. The argument is moot without a law. Does that give gun controllers something to grab onto? Sure it does, I can agree with that 100%.

No matter how many times you call it a crime, it isn't, unless the government can *prove* the seller engaged illegally. Otherwise, it is still legal and still a loophole in the law. Do people use this loophole to conduct illegal sales? I am sure they do, but not *every* private sale is a crime.

Perhaps it was intentional, to allow the states to define their own gun laws to keep the Feds out. Perhaps you could consider this is why the bill has never passed into law, and why some states have taken actions themselves. Most states prefer to keep the Feds out of their gun business. Wasn't Montana one of them?

www.wnd.com...


8th state to feds: Step away from our guns
Alaska governor signs Firearms Freedom Act into law

Alaska has become the eighth state to declare that firearms made, sold and owned in the state are beyond the reach of the federal bureaucrats along the Potomac, with Gov. Sean Parnell's signature on the plan today.

"The Alaska Firearms Freedom Act frees Alaskans from overly bureaucratic and restrictive federal firearm regulation, and allows our state to assume the responsibility for regulation," said Rep. Mike Kelly, the lead sponsor on the plan endorsed by lawmakers in the recently closed session of the Alaska Legislature.


(snip)

Montana's original plan is called "An Act exempting from federal regulation under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution of the United States a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured and retained in Montana."


(snip)

When South Dakota's law was signed by Gov. Mike Rounds, a commentator said it addresses the "rights of states which have been carelessly trampled by the federal government for decades."


edit on 20-1-2011 by Libertygal because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 



Those federal laws that have nothing to do with private sale are what say the thing you said and the thing Ive said about three times now that you cannot knowingly sell to a felon in a private sale.


Ok, let me say this. We agree on almost everything it seems, except the loophole thing, which is how I responded to your OP.

The reason it is a loophole is because there is no way to

1. enforce the laws over a private sale
2. prove the person knowingly sold to a felon
3. prove the person knowingly sold to someone mentally incapable
4. prove they knowing sold to someone from another state
5. prove they sold to an illegal alien

There are no laws restricting the private sales, such as background checks or permits, hence no way of tracking and convicting illegal sales of guns.

Only in certain and rare instances can this be tried and/or convicted, like the case I pointed out above.

Basically, "If you don't tell, I won't tell, but hey man, don't tell anyone where you got that gun and don't do ANYTHING STUPID with it!" "Nah man, I just want it for target practice!"

Good faith sale, good faith that the seller will adhere to the law and do their best to not break it, and that the buyer does the same. Still a loophole.


edit on 20-1-2011 by Libertygal because: I speel gud



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by Libertygal
 


The states you listed are making laws about guns made and sold in the state. If the gun crosses state borders, the transfer must then follow federal law. If you have a problem with that state's law take it up with the state. It has nothing to do with the other 42 states that haven't made such laws.

According to the study Firearm Use by Offenders, Bureau of Justice Statistics, February 2002, 0.7% of convicts bought their last gun at a gun show. Slightly less than 1% of all "crime guns" come from gun shows.

Is the loop hole really a huge problem or is it just another route to regulation?

ETA: Is it a "gun show loop hole?" No it is not. The guy could just as easily do the same thing sitting in his easy chair with his pajamas on. That is actually the more likely scenario. Nearly 80% of the "crime guns" were bought off of the street, from a relative, or from a friend.

People are less likely to engage in questionable deals where other people are present. If other dealers start getting uneasy around a dealer they will end up saying something to either the show promoter or police working security. At home people don't have to worry about those problems.
edit on 20-1-2011 by MikeNice81 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by MikeNice81
 


I agree!


ETA: Is it a "gun show loop hole?" No it is not. The guy could just as easily do the same thing sitting in his easy chair with his pajamas on.


Of course it isn't a gunshow loophole in someones house. It still is at a gunshow, regardless of *how* else he could have bought the gun.

That is akin to giving me a ticket for jaywalking as I finished crossing the street at a crosswalk, and telling me, 'Well, you COULD HAVE jaywalked!"

Again, I agree! It *is* a loophole, based on the very definition of the word. However, no laws *need* to be made to change it, it won't pass if they try, as shown in a previous post, but trying to pretend it isn't a loophole is simply silly. I am all for gun rights, we have enough gun laws as it is, and changing this won't affect *anything* because it will drive people further underground and into private homes as an alternative.

Why is it people are arguing about the definition of the word? To attempt to defend gun rights from those wishing to intrude upon gun rights. In 33 states, I can go sell my guns at a gunshow, without a license, permit, or otherwise, and will not be required to perform background checks, fingerprinting, identity verification, or otherwise.

Instead, I think focus should go more towards the fact that the laws we *do* have will not stop the criminals, who if they cannot buy a gun, will steal one to commit further crimes if that is their desire. Most people that buy guns do so legally, even at gunshows, and this should be the focus towards ant-rights people, not whether a loophole is there or not.

Enough people disagreed already as the attempt to close it did not pass. It still won't.

How many planes have been hijacked since we put guns in responsible hands on planes? Think pilots with guns aren't a deterrent?

Now, lets teach teachers how to use them.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by Libertygal
 


Personally speaking I take objection to the term because so many "anti's" jump on it and parade it around like there's some magic special trait other than location that makes it a particularly sinister thing.

All over MA there are these giant billboards put up warning the public of the dangers of the "gun show loophole" and claiming the "loophole" is responsible for just about every gun used in a crime.

It gets old after a while.

That where my stance against the term comes from. The constant bombardment of cleverly skewed disinfo to sway the thick-headed to their cause.



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