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Are you a Sovereign or a Citizen?

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posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by Mike_A
 


I have furnished both the local cops, and the county sheriff with my affidavit of "Claim of Right and Understanding." Nothing is filed, police all over are being trained for Freemans and Sovereigns. I have a friend who is an Ohio State cop, he told me this.



Trained how? What did your friend mean by this? How do they intend to treat "freeman and sovereigns"? What is the new game plan? I am very interested to know what this "training" entails.




posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 04:44 AM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


I was referring to statutes or case law, do you know of anything like this that establishes a legal basis for what you are claiming?



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by Mike_A
I was referring to statutes or case law, do you know of anything like this that establishes a legal basis for what you are claiming?

They claim it’s from this vaguely defined “common law,” which, clearly, they don’t even know what they’re talking about. And of course they can’t answer you Mike, because, from what they’ve been telling us, “all laws are a sham anyway.”



Originally posted by cupocoffee
No you're not - most Americans are still 14th Amendment Citizens of the US Corporation, that's the whole point. To really be a Sovereign you have to make the conscious choice to leave the Corporation and declare your sovereignty and join the Republic.

So to be a sovereign you just have to declare yourself to be one. The first question I posed in this thread still stands: what’s to stop, for example, an illegal alien from declaring himself a sovereign and be immune from US law, as you assert to be? If an alien can’t do that, why? And why can you?

I have no problem with people that oppose taxes, or specific taxes, or have some legitimate objection to our current form or system of government, but people who want to enjoy the benefits of living in America and not have the responsibilities that come with it (pay taxes, obey the law), you’re even worse than the illegal aliens most of you rant about. At least they don’t pretend to be living in a fairy tale world where all they have to do is declare themselves to be legal residents.



edit on 16-1-2011 by aptness because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 12:24 PM
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In cases when "sovereigns"don't pay taxes, I don't think they should be entitled to using public roads and similar stuff. Police and firefighters should not answer 911 calls placed from residences of these "sovereigns".



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by aptness
They claim it’s from this vaguely defined “common law,” which, clearly, they don’t even know what they’re talking about. And of course they can’t answer you Mike, because, from what they’ve been telling us, “all laws are a sham anyway.”


My understanding is that the legal framework they're using is the original Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights, pre 1868 when the US Corporation was created.




So to be a sovereign you just have to declare yourself to be one.


Well, I don't know what the exact procedure is. But it's all there on their websites.




The first question I posed in this thread still stands: what’s to stop, for example, an illegal alien from declaring himself a sovereign and be immune from US law, as you assert to be? If an alien can’t do that, why? And why can you?


Don't know. I am not a sovereign myself, just someone who has been studying and monitoring the "sovereign movement" and Restore America Plan etc very closely. I don't know yet what they plan to do about all the illegal aliens.

BTW being a sovereign does not make you "immune from the law", it's just a question of jurisdiction. The sovereigns fall under the jurisdiction of the "De Jure" Grand Juries instead of the de facto courts, I believe.

Becoming a sovereign will not give you a free pass to break whatever laws you want and get away with it



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 01:09 PM
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Here check this video out. Tim Turner can answer your questions a lot better than I can:




posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by cupocoffee
BTW being a sovereign does not make you "immune from the law", it's just a question of jurisdiction. The sovereigns fall under the jurisdiction of the "De Jure" Grand Juries instead of the de facto courts, I believe.


Nowadays Grand Juries decide whether a case goes to court or not -- not more, not less. They do not decide guilt or punishment, just evaluate cases put together by the District Attorney. So they have nothing to do with Sovereigns to begin with.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 


Again I am referring to the "De Jure" Grand Juries which RAP has been busy establishing for the past few years. Not the courts and legal system most people are familiar with.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 01:30 PM
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The United States exists in two forms:

1. The original United States that was in operation until 1860; a collection of sovereign Republics in the union. Under the original Constitution the States controlled the Federal Government; the Federal Government did not control the States and had very little authority.

2. The original United States has been usurped by a separate and different UNITED STATES formed in 1871, which only controls the District of Columbia and it’s territories, and which is actually a corporation (the UNITED STATES CORPORATION) that acts as our current government. The United States Corporation operates under Corporate/Commercial/Public Law rather than Common/Private Law.

The original Constitution was never removed; it has simply been dormant since 1871. It is still intact to this day. This fact was made clear by Supreme Court Justice Marshall Harlan (Downes v. Bidwell, 182, U.S. 244 1901) by giving the following dissenting opinion: “Two national governments exist; one to be maintained under the Constitution, with all its restrictions; the other to be maintained by Congress outside and Independently of that Instrument.”

The Restore America Plan reclaimed the De Jure institutions of government of the 50 State Republics in order to restore Common Law that represents the voice of the people and ends Corporate Law that ignores the voice of the people while operating under Maritime/Admiralty/International Law. This occurred when warrants were delivered to all 50 Governors on March 30, 2010.

The rewritten Constitution of the UNITED STATES CORPORATION bypasses the original Constitution for the United States of America, which explains why our Congressmen and Senators don’t abide by it, and the President can write Executive Orders to do whatever he/she wants. They are following corporate laws that completely strip sovereigns of their God given unalienable rights. Corporate/Commercial/Public Law is not sovereign (private), as it is an agreement between two or more parties under contract. Common Law (which sovereigns operate under) is not Commercial Law; it is personal and private.


Source



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 07:30 PM
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I went to the website to review the "sovereign" stipulations, and I must say I found 99% of these quite silly. OK, sure, let's not file birth certificate. Then there is no document whatsoever that establishes that you were born in the United Stated, and no way to prove parenthood. Kids won't have rights to protection, straight off bat, with that sort of proposal. Then, let's also do away with car registration. Some "sovereign" tailgates and damages your car, and there is no way to track them down and demand compensation. Of course, why not stop using titles for car ownership? Brilliant! Some crooks will boost your car and there is no way whatsoever to prove that you are the rightful owner. And I also like the idea of self-issued passports. That one takes the cake!

Sorry guys it's not freedom but some weird mental masturbation going on.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
I went to the website to review the "sovereign" stipulations, and I must say I found 99% of these quite silly. OK, sure, let's not file birth certificate. Then there is no document whatsoever that establishes that you were born in the United Stated, and no way to prove parenthood. Kids won't have rights to protection, straight off bat, with that sort of proposal. Then, let's also do away with car registration. Some "sovereign" tailgates and damages your car, and there is no way to track them down and demand compensation. Of course, why not stop using titles for car ownership? Brilliant! Some crooks will boost your car and there is no way whatsoever to prove that you are the rightful owner. And I also like the idea of self-issued passports. That one takes the cake!

Sorry guys it's not freedom but some weird mental masturbation going on.


you are obviously quite ignorant on the whole meaning of sovereignty. sovereigns seek a republic form of government. heres a slice of pie for your brain...
Republic- That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the individual(s) and are exercised by the individual(s), either directly, or through representatives chosen by the individual(s), to whom those powers are specially delegated. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. HOWEVER! you CAN lose your sovereignty under a republic. in a trial by jury, IF 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.

Democracy- That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free CITIZENS directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.

see, we know that there HAS to be some sort of government, its only logical to know, that WE (the sovereign Individuals) should be that governing body.
edit on 16-1-2011 by WJjeeper because: spelling sucks



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by cupocoffee
Again I am referring to the "De Jure" Grand Juries which RAP has been busy establishing for the past few years.


Oh, you mean the "jury" of unelected, unrepresentative, self appointed people that form their own kangaroo court!



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
I went to the website to review the "sovereign" stipulations, and I must say I found 99% of these quite silly.


What website? I don't recall ever seeing or hearing anything about getting rid of birth certificates or car registration.

Links?



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by dereks
Oh, you mean the "jury" of unelected, unrepresentative, self appointed people that form their own kangaroo court!


But the de facto juries are set up in a better way I suppose?

Look, I don't know exactly how it all works, but I do know that they are doing everything exactly according to the Constitution (the original one).

All they are doing is restoring the government to the way it was supposed to be before it was subverted, and they are doing it using correct legal procedures and without violence. So what's the problem?



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
In cases when "sovereigns"don't pay taxes, I don't think they should be entitled to using public roads and similar stuff. Police and firefighters should not answer 911 calls placed from residences of these "sovereigns".


I disagree. Even dimwits have rights. They also have their dignity even though they excel in casting it to the wind.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by cupocoffee
Look, I don't know exactly how it all works, but I do know that they are doing everything exactly according to the Constitution (the original one).


You mean the one that allowed blacks to be kept as slaves - so that is their real agenda! Now the full story ccomes out.


All they are doing is restoring the government to the way it was supposed to be before it was subverted, and they are doing it using correct legal procedures and without violence.


No they are not, they are just trying to put themselves into positions of power, without being voted in or elected.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 02:37 AM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 


Just in case you didn't know, sales tax is what pays for all that. No one even has the chance to not pay sales tax.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by buddhasystem
 


Just in case you didn't know, sales tax is what pays for all that.


Patently false. Sales tax is collected by the state. Firefighters and police are 100% local where I live, down to the county level. I get tax papers from local government and there is a breakdown of how my taxes were used to pay for these services (plus the library and all that).



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by cupocoffee

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I went to the website to review the "sovereign" stipulations, and I must say I found 99% of these quite silly.


What website? I don't recall ever seeing or hearing anything about getting rid of birth certificates or car registration.

Links?


The video posted here like 3 times... www.republicfortheunitedstates.com (please double check with video for spelling).

There is a whole compendium of proclamations there. Bashing 1040, car registrations and all that. Birth certificates, too.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by dereks
You mean the one that allowed blacks to be kept as slaves - so that is their real agenda! Now the full story ccomes out.


Good God dereks! You'll resort to anything, won't you?

Again, the current de facto system is no better. Right now you are ALL essentially slaves to the US Corporation. Literally! The Corporation OWNS you and uses your life and productivity as collateral on its debt.

Oh, you didn't know that? Hmmm....

The whole point of restoring the Republic is to free people from that situation - and yes, black people too





No they are not, they are just trying to put themselves into positions of power, without being voted in or elected.


Again, wrong. How did Tim Turner get to be President of the Republic? The members of the Republic elected him to that position, that's how.

They have had elections once already, and there will be more elections once the transition's complete.



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