Israel said it would keep Gaza near collapse: WikiLeaks

reply to post by Rosha


Rosha,
I wasn't really suggesting that you hate or condemn Israel, I was simply trying to make a point- How can you judge one side according to one set of standards, and the other according to other sets of standards?

I talk to West Bankers, I listen to good and bad stories, my ex girlfriend, which is an Arab Israeli, used to go out to the West Bank once every two weeks or so. One day I'd even like to protest with West Bankers.

Not everything is pretty, but when looking at the big picture things are getting better and better all the time, although it's far from perfect. Hopefully in 20-30 years their standard of living will be no different than ours.

I wish you and all your family and friends well and I hope you all make it through this okay.
With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by Eliad

Are you aware that there was a planned coup in the West Bank that was thwarted by the PA just a week ago?

Are you aware there have been planned coups in Israel's past also??

BTW, you lied before..

It was YOU that mentioned Hamas first , not me..
So you were NOT just responding to a question as you told another poster..

Israel want's the Palistinians gone..
If they can't have that due to world pressure then they will simply make life so unbearable that the poor Palistinians will finally leave or start a war they have no chance of winning..
There will be no peace with the DEMANDS Israel requests..

reply to post by backinblack



The conviction of the Arab Jew president of Israel for multiple counts of rape was a coup d'etat of a kind by the Askenzim of Israel. That dude was a tad too uppity for them so he had to be put in his place.

Pretty much says it all...

reply to post by backinblack


I was not aware (and I'm very interested to know what you're talking about), but I was merely mentioning it in the context of what negative influences a military could have on the PA. That's not to say that a military won't have good influences too..

I didn't say you were the first to mention Hamas.. She didn't ask me who brought it up, she asked me why I was focused on Hamas like that, and she was referring to a specific comment.. I didn't feel that this somehow puts it all on you or something, just put my comment in perspective, as she thought I somehow think the IDF is non violent.

Besides talking about this conflict and *not* mentioning Hamas, is like talking about it without ever mentioning Israel, or the PA...

I don't lie, what are we, fifth graders?

If they can't have that due to world pressure then they will simply make life so unbearable that the poor Palistinians will finally leave or start a war they have no chance of winning.. There will be no peace with the DEMANDS Israel requests..

I don't get it, why must you always look at the worst case scenario.. Life in the West Bank has improved immensely during the past 5 years, and it is going to keep improving, so why do you still have that misconception of Israel doing everything to make the Palestinians' lives a misery?

reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady


Do you know how many Arab Jews there are in the government and military? Give me a flippin' break..

Stop talking about subjects you know absolutely nothing about.

Arab Jews and Ashkenazis.. What will you people think of next?

reply to post by MrXYZ


Pretty accurate analysis, I like how it wasn't the normal "ISRAEL IS DOING THIS 'CAUSE THEY'RE EVIL!!!" bull#, but rather he kept it real by explaining that this was for future political gains.
And he's right, it is wrong.

One thing I'd dispute- The naval blockade *does* prevent smuggling of weapons, there's no two ways about it, Israel has already caught in the past shipments of tons of guns, RPGs, and bombs (that came from Iran), and it'd be really easy for anyone that wants to support Hamas to use this to their advantage..

reply to post by Eliad

I don't get it, why must you always look at the worst case scenario.. Life in the West Bank has improved immensely during the past 5 years, and it is going to keep improving, so why do you still have that misconception of Israel doing everything to make the Palestinians' lives a misery?

Even you know what DEMANDS Israel have put into any peace proposal so even a "best case scenario" would see a Palistine defenceless and with little control over it's own state due to air and electronic control in the hands of Israel..

reply to post by backinblack


Looking back at the Jordan and Egypt peace proposals, I'm not sure I see the crazy demands..

Best case scenario is Israel withdraws, Palestine declared, and 50 years from now my grandkids go on a field trip to Hebron, while my friend Adeeb from Rammalah goes skiing with his family at Mt. Hermon.

Aren't you exaggerating a bit? Defenseless?

Do you really think Israel is making peace only so they could then conquer poor defenseless Palestine? I highly doubt it.

Anyway, if you had bothered to check you would see that the whole airspace/electromagnetic spectrum deal is pretty reasonable, and in no way is it about restricting, censorship, or anything like that.

One is about making sure no foreign aircraft enters Israel's sky without it knowing about it, and the other is about no one being able to jam Israeli radio frequencies, is all.. Why do you make such a big deal out of it, the West Bank isn't censored or grounded, is it?

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by backinblack

 

Looking back at the Jordan and Egypt peace proposals, I'm not sure I see the crazy demands..
Best case scenario is Israel withdraws, Palestine declared, and 50 years from now my grandkids go on a field trip to Hebron, while my friend Adeeb from Rammalah goes skiing with his family at Mt. Hermon.
Aren't you exaggerating a bit? Defenseless?
Do you really think Israel is making peace only so they could then conquer poor defenseless Palestine? I highly doubt it.
Anyway, if you had bothered to check you would see that the whole airspace/electromagnetic spectrum deal is pretty reasonable, and in no way is it about restricting, censorship, or anything like that.
One is about making sure no foreign aircraft enters Israel's sky without it knowing about it, and the other is about no one being able to jam Israeli radio frequencies, is all.. Why do you make such a big deal out of it, the West Bank isn't censored or grounded, is it?

Eliad, Israel should demand nothing like that if they trully want peace..
Imagine putting the same DEMANDS on Israel..

That's ALL you have to do to see how "reasonable" it is..
Any DEMANDS you think are fair on Palistine, apply those same DEMANDS on Israel..

Then come back and tell me how "reasonable" they are...

reply to post by backinblack


Israel is stable, Palestine is volatile.

Things could change in Palestine at any moment, while Israel pretty much just wants to keep its civilians safe (and whatever piece of the West Bank it can get)..

But I get it, Palestine should have control, and it's not that Palestine doesn't understand where Israel is coming from, it does, but it's saying 'trust us, let us take care of it' and I'm not sure Israel can trust Palestine at this point in time..

At the end of the day it's not a matter of 'right or wrong', Israel is just trying to keep safe, is all, so both sides will probably find some kind of middle ground for all of this, and all will be well.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by backinblack

 

Israel is stable, Palestine is volatile.
Things could change in Palestine at any moment, while Israel pretty much just wants to keep its civilians safe (and whatever piece of the West Bank it can get)..
But I get it, Palestine should have control, and it's not that Palestine doesn't understand where Israel is coming from, it does, but it's saying 'trust us, let us take care of it' and I'm not sure Israel can trust Palestine at this point in time..
At the end of the day it's not a matter of 'right or wrong', Israel is just trying to keep safe, is all, so both sides will probably find some kind of middle ground for all of this, and all will be well.

Saying Israel wants peace is ignoring the whole point of this thread..
No one has yet to disprove the OP..

reply to post by backinblack


I don't think anyone tried to dispute the OP, I certainly didn't (we're talking about the cable, right?).

Israel treats its enemies different than how it treats its peace partners.

Can you really say Israel's treatment of Hamas controlled Gaza somehow cancels out its efforts, or at least willingness to make peace with the Palestinians, and the steps the PA and Israel have made in the past 5 years?
That's hardly fair.

BTW, you said something about a coup in Israel, I'm interested to know what you were talking about?

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by backinblack

 

I don't think anyone tried to dispute the OP, I certainly didn't (we're talking about the cable, right?).

Israel treats its enemies different than how it treats its peace partners. There's peace, and there's war, two different things. Even the starvation of Gaza, using twisted logic, was done to destroy Hamas so that the PA could take over again, and restore order and peace to the region.

BTW, you said something about a coup in Israel, I'm interested to know what you were talking about?

There was trouble with Israel/Palistine before Hamas..
IMO Hamas is just the current excuse..
If they were gone, IMO little would change....

Coup? I said there was "talk" of an Israeli coup in the past..
Look at the 6 day war records...

reply to post by backinblack


There was the PLO which was formed in 56' by Egypt and the Arab league of nations, and then there's Hamas.. The PLO is the PA now, and they're getting along just fine with Israel.

I don't get it, why would you still think it's just an excuse when you have the PLO and the West Bank as an example of what might happen if Hamas changes its ways?

Why are you insisting on your opinions when the situation on the ground proves them wrong? I mean sure, things aren't perfect, but they aren't as screwed up as they used to be when the PLO was still violent and soldiers were in every corner of the West Bank..

reply to post by Eliad

Why are you insisting on your opinions when the situation on the ground proves them wrong? I mean sure, things aren't perfect, but they aren't as screwed up as they used to be when the PLO was still violent and soldiers were in every corner of the West Bank..

Because I believe Israel does not want peace with Palistine..
That's my "opinion" based on what I have read.
The OP if true fits the same scenario..

reply to post by backinblack


Fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess.

It's been a interesting discussion.

Citing no one in this thread cares to see the grotesque defamations of Palestinian media against Jews; and Israels concomitant allowance of it, please go to PLW.org, if you at all care to get a balanced view of the situation.

Israels government is absurdly insane, and whats so effing insane is that they allow this type of Palestinian vitriolic propaganda... They also permit Arab politicans in Israel to SUPPORT terrorist attacks. When the knesset tried to penalize an arab knesset member for doing just that a few years back, the supreme court over ruled it! How insane and crazy and suicidal can a government BE!? So in essence, Israels ruling elite WANT to fan the flames of palestinian and arab hatred towards Jews...Why? So much can be speculated but any reasonable assesment of the situation will conclude that they want to make life for Jews in Israel exceedingly difficult.

If the Arabs get their 'state', they will not stop until the lague of nations mandated state of Israel is completely gone. So. maybe i should harken back to a statement made by Hassan Nasrallah - leader of Hizbollah, in 2007,.

"im glad all the Jews have gathered in Israel. It means we wont have to hunt them down globally"...So is this game the elite are playing - the oslo accord and the endless 'peace talks' designed to facilitate the extermination of world Jewry? I would say that is a definitive YES.

Alice Bailey, whose 25 esoteric books served as the theological basis for Robert Muller, underscretary of the UN for 45 years said this in 1948 about the Jewish 'problem' and specifically Orthodox Judaism

In her Plan for the New World Order," in the section on the "reorganization of world religions," that Goal No. 2 calls for:

The gradual dissolution - again if in any way possible - of the Orthodox Jewish faith, with its obsolete teaching, its separative emphasis."

And dont forget this comment of Hitlers which is still so pertinent to our times (that is, it doesnt matter whether Jews are Torah followers or not)

“If only one country, for whatever reason, tolerates a Jewish family in it, that family will become the germ center for fresh sedition. If one little Jewish boy survives without any Jewish education, with no synagogue and no Hebrew school, it [Judaism] is in his soul. Even if there had never been a synagogue or a Jewish school or an Old Testament, the Jewish spirit would still exist and exert its influence. It has been there from the beginning and there is no Jew, not a single one, who does not personify it.”

This is why Israels government is flagrantly feeble in getting anything done. They serve WESTERN interests.

Does the world care that the Jewish people gave always been associated with Israel? Apparently, not in a secularized moral relativistic world order, they dont. But the thoughtful and religious will accept the Jews and their historical connection to the land. The secular zionists have made this connection look trivial, because people think the Jewish dream is synonymous with the message of secular zionism. Anyone remotely educated... Who has read Rabbinic works like Talmud, Mishna, Midrashim, or the Rishonim and achoranim, or has read Josephus, or Philo of Alexandria. Any TRULY educated person will see how ludicrous and patently absurd the claims are that the "jewish temples never existed". History ATTESTS to their existence. 3/4 of the world has been influenced by the Bible of Judaism.

And now.. what do these antisemitic bible haters resort to when those lies dont work? Todays Jews arent the ancient Hebrews!.. despite the fact that there has been a nonstop documented history of the Jewish peoples dispersals; as recorded in their philosophical and religious writings. How can anyone tolerate this opinion without any evidence, and indeed DNA evidence to the contrary?

PROPAGANDA. It worked in Nazi Germany and today it is much more subtle and sophistacted, but the END, the result, is the same. Jews = bad. The term "jew" has been replaced by "zionist" and the majority of the people cant tell the difference. Most people dont even know that Zionism is Judaism - zion means 'marker' in Hebrew and refers to mount moriyah, the Temple mount. Thus, Judaisms entire agenda is to reestablish the Temple of G-d on that ancient site. It signifies the return of G-d into the world.

But nobody cares. In todays world that is meaningless. Instead people support a murderous and jihadist government like the PLO and Hamas whos agenda is the same as th rest of the arab world. Establish MORE and MORE despotic islamic states until the Islam al harb becomes Islam al habir and their militaristic agenda is affected.

How stupid liberals are.

reply to post by dontreally


Is that your comment on the OP.???

Funny, I see no reference to it at all..
Why not sprout the anti-muslim stuff in your own thread and leave this thread alone..

Eliad...you are true Israelie.

Guess what...Gazans are Palestinians too!
You seem to want me and ppl here to ignore that fact...yo bkeep saying ;look to the WB' as if it is some glorious Israelie led peace intitive and not the cumulation of 40 years of attempted incremental genocide!

Please go write in ' photos of gaza + operation cast lead' into your search engine of choice to see how Israel really treats the rest of the populations of palestine, those who refuse to bow down to such a gloroious life!

That vid sums up my view of the West Bank too...except that the very existance of the West Bank is a testament to Israelie dissposession of an entire people. Its living proof.

When you wrote something to the effect of ' and when they behaved then we gave them guns' you betrayed your underslying view of these people..not viewing them as equal human adults capeable of choosing and determining life for themselves.but rather as some child race Israel views a wayward children to be disciplined!

They - the pre-existant and entire population of Palestine once roamed an entire land, owned it, farmed it, wrote philosophy in it, marketed in it..raised children and made homes in it..now..those same people, dispossed..have now been swplit in two as a scheme of war, and while one side bleeds to death, the other side too exhasted, now must await their masters' whim and bidding even before they can have the right to own a gun or control their own borders. You are not their parents.

The quote I said in the begining of this thread..the one that said about there only being 4500,00 Arabs left etc..I pt there becase it shows very clearly that the zionists in Plaestine at the time KNEW it was THEIR land.
AND more..they had plans to ,manipulate it out of their hands aka to STEAL the lands from them.

And so they did.

All that has come since..is because of THAT.

And for THAT , Israel is repsonsible.

- You DID say ' why do you condem Israel' - it wasnt a wishy washy statement..to which I replied I do not..your doing a good enough job yourselves. NOw yo say yoi didnt mean that...
typical.

Yesterday I had to pull a single small childs body out of a home..and carry her across to the areas we prepared for our coroners today. I cannot imagine the insanity of grief..that Palestinian parents have had to face..doing this every day for weeks at a time....I can tho predict the result..as even in my situation..one child lost to 'an act of god' i became so angry..and deeply despairing....and I know that it is THAT that lies at the heart of all Palesntians today....a garanteed pin on a massive massive emotional grendade that when it suits your leders and people..they will use to destory them entirely.


Rosha.