God has left the building - where is He?

What about the fact that someone had a problem with a certani addition all of their life and tried different things and programs to break it and it did not work, but when they came to a church and recieved prayer and repented of the life they had lived and were baptized n Jesus name that day they walked away from their addition, never to pick it up again??

How is that explained away??

Then there was the time someone fell and their knee swelled up to the size of a cantelope. Someone prayed in Jesus name and within 5 minutes the swelling was gone and the person was walking as if nothing had happened.

Hmm.... I guess there is no real "proof" there either....is there??

Not everything can be proven...Godels Theorem-All logical systems of complexity are incomplete....all things cannot be proven true or false...

[edit on 7-7-2004 by KSoze]

Originally posted by ab2tw
I am simply refuting your statement that belief inthe bible leads to irresponsibility. Now if you believe the Bible is true or not, that is a different story.

Why is it a different story? First off no historical book, record or account is 100% true. Every historical writing is corrupted from the actual events by the perception/veiwpoint of the individual writing it. History is written by the victors. Beside it is a fact that the original bible has been changed over the millienum so which one is the true version?

As for the taking responsibility for yourself comment, I believe that in order to do so you must question everything internal as well as external. Following a tradition simply for the same of tradition is not thinking for one's self it is a reflexive action without conscious examination. Since traditions are steeped in history that one could never know first hand, a 'follower' must accept anothers ideas as fact without knowing if it is indeed fact retaining no more proof then what someone else says. I personally do not see this as thinking for one's self and without conscious inflection true responsibility can not be achieved because the individual is deriving what they believe as Truth from unprovable/illogical ideas.

Do be confused by seeing responsibility as taking out the trash, but rather as everything you are supporting (corporations/practices) by purchasing the items, the effects of all things consumed, packaged or woren on your health, home, society, monotary system, family, etc and the remnants effect on the envoirnment, entire ecosystem, etc. True responsibility can only be aquired when you are conscious of the underlining truth, reasoning and interaction of evrything in existence and your actions/reactions on them.

Proof is only so in the evidence of a fact. Where is the fact that a god/gods exist? There is no 'evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact'. There is nothing testible to provide the fact of god/gods unless you are privy to some new information that I have not as yet heard

What is a fact? Is a fact something you believe from an authoritarian person? Or is a fact something you believe yourself? Ah, yes, because a fact is a belief. So, tell me what a fact for you would be? Realize that you all your senses occur in a fixed spectrum. You can use science, except that we only know how to manipulate our realities rather than prove any kind of universal fact. And even then, we can only manipulate in a fixed sense.

So tell me a universal fact, one that exists everywhere and all the time. That is what God is assumed to be.

I am not privy to any new information. But you seem to be, tell what is your PROOF or FACT or BELIEF that God doesn't exist. Oh right, its a belief...

My statement still stands, you or anyone can disprove God as much as anyone can prove God.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn

My statement still stands, you or anyone can disprove God as much as anyone can prove God.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by Jamuhn]

This is true, and I never said any diffrent. So this means you (not you, in general) shouldnt push a god on anyone.

To each is there own.

Originally posted by ab2tw
Then there was the time someone fell and their knee swelled up to the size of a cantelope. Someone prayed in Jesus name and within 5 minutes the swelling was gone and the person was walking as if nothing had happened. Hmm.... I guess there is no real "proof" there either....is there??

Yes there is proof! The proof of every one seeing the individual fall to the ground (assuming that you are talking about an actual event), the proof that the knee swelled up as could be expected from landing on it and the proof that the swelling recided. That can be examined and tested.

As for the rest, just because something is unusual or rare does not mean that we should jump to supernatural explanations. What about the adrenalin rushes in individuals that have been documented to give super human strength? What about psychsomatic disorders? What about people that can deal with sticking needles through their skin and claim to feel no pain? The human mind is a wonderous organ that controls us in ways that are only within the past 100+ years being discovered.

Originally posted by Jonna
As for the rest, just because something is unusual or rare does not mean that we should jump to supernatural explanations.

And this is how God was made. Unexplained things that happen, that now we know it was nature.


Just like the earth was flat at one time. If we dont know we make something up.

if god doesnt exist then where did organic matter come from and gases and everything else? did everything just suddenly appear? how can you prove god doesnt exist?

hmm, you get the same problem either way, you just need to believe or not, theres no proof he exists and nothing proving he doesnt exist, the definition of proof is evidence that compels you to think something is true and evidence means Something indicative; an outward sign so with nothing you can see or touch you cant prove either way now can you?

Why does it have to come from anywhere? Why cant it just be?

Organic is just a diffrent mix of the same elements that are presant everywhere. Carbon is everywhere.

just being? now since we dont know how can you speculate such a thing? with what you just said i can argue the same about a god can i not?

since you say it just exists but no proof why or how..

[edit on 7-7-2004 by namehere]

Yes there is proof! The proof of every one seeing the individual fall to the ground (assuming that you are talking about an actual event), the proof that the knee swelled up as could be expected from landing on it and the proof that the swelling recided. That can be examined and tested.

But to the people that don't see him fall, did that individual actually fall? Only if someone told him that the individual falled, and then it is up to them to believe it or not. As well, its known that the brain filters out 50% of what it sees and the rest is filled in with what the individuals want to see. It's comparable to, If a tree falls and nobody is around, does it make a noise? Oh well then, what if everyone saw the individual fall. Well, show me an instance when something like this has happened and it may be considered proof, at least proof within the eyes of humanity. The most similar example I can think of is 9/11. Most people saw it happen on television though, so prove to me that the towers ever even existed in physical form. I've never touched them. How do I know it isn't light just playing tricks with me? I don't, I assume its real based on other people's accounts and I assume based on what science tells me to believe...

But you see, science only leads on to exmplaining a small part of a large thing. You have to ask how did the individual come to falling, why did that happen, what caused that, back infinitum. That is largely outside the scope of science to prove all causation and effects. Then you have to ask, were all those events coincedence or did they happen for a reason? Well, if it was immediately assumed it happened for a reason, then science would declare the reason(s). If it was considered to be coincedence science wouldn't touch it. Why? Because random events are those that science doesn't understand or cannot prove. This works for everything.

As for the rest, just because something is unusual or rare does not mean that we should jump to supernatural explanations.

Well, it surely seems supernatural until we explain it, then we call it natural. We are not in a position in civilization to determine whether or not God exists is my point.

There is still dispute about whether non-physical entities exist. Until "science" proves them they don't exist.

But anyway, the only reason I decided to say anything at all is because you were trying to question other people's faith. Why should they try to prove anything to you? How are you going to prove he doesn't exists to them, based on what others have told you is real, based on what your fixed senses sense to be real, or is it just your belief?

I suffer from the same affliction, we are all in this together. I would say feeling something to be real is just as real to them as you believing your computer is real. Just remember that everything is ultimately energy, we don't even know what that is either or how it can be manipulated.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
What is a fact? Is a fact something you believe from an authoritarian person? Or is a fact something you believe yourself?

Read the definition of the word in a dictionary for the concept. If you want to get philosophical about it then a fact is a testible and verifiable occurence in the humans species perceivible reality.

So tell me a universal fact, one that exists everywhere and all the time.

You are asking me personally? One is the only real number. That is the only one that I know and the only one that is the same in all situations. Forgive me for not explaining it yet again, but read the link in my sig if you are interested.

I am not privy to any new information. But you seem to be, tell what is your PROOF or FACT or BELIEF that God doesn't exist. Oh right, its a belief...

I get the feeling that you are just playing word games at this point. Yes, everything is technically a belief, but not all beliefs can validate their reality with facts.

My statement still stands, you or anyone can disprove God as much as anyone can prove God.

Is this getting as tedious for you as it is for me? I don't even remember debating with you to begin with. To prove something you need proof. Does that not work for you? It does not mean that to prove something you do not need proof. I have no proof that you are not a geneticly engeneered pencil (no. 2) with fingers to type, but to say that if is true with no proof would be illogical and irrational as a typing pencil is not something that has ever happenned (to my knowledge) before in the human's concept of perceivible reality. So I guess your statement does not stand after all.

peace
~Jonna~

Originally posted by namehere


just being? now since we dont know how can you speculate such a thing? with what you just said i can argue the same about a god can i not?

[edit on 7-7-2004 by namehere]

Well the majority of the world can not, they would rather just believe what thay have been told to be true. Just like solids are not soild.

You can make the same argument, but you asked, the question, I answered. I am not trying to make you think the same way I do. Just be open to other things.

Until God puts his wrath upon us, we will never know. I am not going to waste my life and money to a church that is bogus. mass population contol, is a mother..........

All I am asking is why does organic things have to come from anywhere? An answer please, Please dont answer with a question. thanks

I get the feeling that you are just playing word games at this point. Yes, everything is technically a belief, but not all beliefs can validate their reality with facts.

Well with this you once again validated by statement. Once again, a fact is whatever we perceive it to be.

A common misperception is the fact that science can explain everything. Well obviously our current science cannot explain everything, it would take dramatic mutations of science to do that.

You say it would be illogical or irrational. It is only such within the scope of our current knowledge/beliefs.

Science cannot explain or validate everything, including the existance of God. I think it is equally foolish, illogical, irrational, to believe in the non-existance of God based on our current knowledge/beliefs. The point is, we do not know either way.

And while it may seem I am playing mere word games, I am trying to drive the point that science is based on conditions, assumptions, presuppositions, and that it cannot explain close to everything, ascribing instead to randomness. I think someone said "All experiments are affected by the observer."

I am not asking you to prove the non-existance of God, but I think it is foolish to believe we are omniscient. A feel for something is as much a belief as your science facts.

You assume that something doesn't exist until it is proven. Just as some assume that something exists until it is unproven.

One is the only real number.

Ah, yes, lets assume this....the godly number, everything comes from one. Why can't God be that number. I see how it can and can't, depends on what your reality is.

Number is a man-made system by the way..

Note: I don't subscribe to any organized religion or such. But I don't tell people they are foolish for doing so either.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
All I am asking is why does organic things have to come from anywhere? An answer please, Please dont answer with a question. thanks

well i dont know, thats why i responded the way i did, i cant say youre wrong or right since neither of us can prove anything either way, im just saying that we really cant give proof of god existing or not.

i believe but not just blindly, untill im proven wrong or right i cant really know, and i dont go to church or follow others blindly, i question everything i believe all the time and im not trying to push my beliefs on you if you think i am, i simply want you to understand where im coming from.

Someone said, "To prove something you need proof"
Science is limited by our outery senses. Not only do you need proof, but you need a method and the equipment to measure data to get that proof...For instance, we didn't know the contents of an atom until we got the right equipment...Many denied the existence of smaller particles and such because no proof had been found before we got the eqipment required to observe...Lack of data doesn't necessarily imply it isn't there; of course, it doesn't imply it is either.
As I stated earlier, nothing exists until its observed...If god exists, we need someway of observing god (from a scientific pt of view)...We still have a great deal of the universe that hasn't been observed, so there's room for anything...Thats the only way your getting scientific proof, through observation...In the meantime, two possibilities remain-existence or nonexistence...