The Ramey Memo: Best Roswell Evidence Ever Found

Originally posted by The Shrike

Here is more from Pflock's book on page 150:
"When the news broke about a flying saucer being found on the Foster Ranch, it must have caused great consternation at Alamogordo AAB. Project Mogul's hosts and Watson Labs personnel still at the base undoubtedly quickly became concerned the project might be in danger of being compromised as a result of the news coverage of Mack (sic) Brazel's discovery, which was likely to be something from one of the numerous unrecovered NYU arrays. Several of the flights had already been responsible for reports of flying saucers over the Tularosa Valley, in which Alamogordo is located. Moreover, there had been some press inquiries to the base about "unusual activities" in the North Area. Added to the growing public and media attention, the possibility that someone without a need to know had physical evidence of the NYU team's Project Mogul-related balloon operations meant something had to be done to divert press and public attention."

"must have caused great consternation" . . . . "undoubtedly quickly became concerned." I actually considered picking up this book, but if this is the level of argument Pflock made, I'll pass. How does he know this? What evidence does he provide to back up this wild speculation? The level of research I find from the skeptics is consistently at a lower level than that of the UFO researchers which is far too often a very low bar to hurdle.

Originally posted by UFO Partisan

Originally posted by The Shrike

Here is more from Pflock's book on page 150:
"When the news broke about a flying saucer being found on the Foster Ranch, it must have caused great consternation at Alamogordo AAB. Project Mogul's hosts and Watson Labs personnel still at the base undoubtedly quickly became concerned the project might be in danger of being compromised as a result of the news coverage of Mack (sic) Brazel's discovery, which was likely to be something from one of the numerous unrecovered NYU arrays. Several of the flights had already been responsible for reports of flying saucers over the Tularosa Valley, in which Alamogordo is located. Moreover, there had been some press inquiries to the base about "unusual activities" in the North Area. Added to the growing public and media attention, the possibility that someone without a need to know had physical evidence of the NYU team's Project Mogul-related balloon operations meant something had to be done to divert press and public attention."

"must have caused great consternation" . . . . "undoubtedly quickly became concerned." I actually considered picking up this book, but if this is the level of argument Pflock made, I'll pass. How does he know this? What evidence does he provide to back up this wild speculation? The level of research I find from the skeptics is consistently at a lower level than that of the UFO researchers which is far too often a very low bar to hurdle.

Pflock argues by assertion, then gullible skeptics like Shrike cite his spin, opinion, or speculation as some sort of unarguable fact.

Pflock's argument is also nonsense and quite easy to disprove. The day after Roswell base press release, a debunking demonstration was held at Alamogordo, where they spoke of their balloon launches there and claimed they explained not only what the rancher found but all the flying saucer reports. Here are the pictures and articles:

roswellproof.com...

So rather than denying anything about the balloon flights, they were admitting to them, even giving details, just not saying what their ultimate purpose was, the only classified part of the project. None of the balloon materials themselves were classified. In fact, only a few months after this, several of the Mogul people wrote a public paper detailing their methods, equipment, and some of their flight data, which was published in the Journal of Meteorology June 1948. That article was republished in the AF Roswell Report.

Also the old Mogul people the AF interviewed in 1994 stated it was pointless to try to keep the flights secret, because they were impossible to conceal, being large and right out in the open. Other ranchers had found Mogul balloon material and reported it, and nobody flipped out at Mogul or any air base. An example was rancher Sid West on found the remains of Mogul #6, launched June 7, and reported it to Alamogordo. They sent out two guys in a jeep to pick it up.

What did rancher Brazel describe? Shredded balloon material and parts of a radar target (before denying he found any sort of balloon), but nothing at all about equipment. What were the Russians going to learn from this? Absolutely nothing. Same with the unshredded balloon and broken up single radar target in Ramey's office. Nothing remotely secret here, and certainly not from any large Mogul balloon train.

Pflock was trying to make it sound like everything about Mogul, including the balloons, were somehow supersecret, therefore created an emergency military situation. It's all more lying from the debunking crowd to try to make a case for Mogul.

Of course, Pflock never really dealt with the embarrassing situation that there was never any unaccounted for Mogul that could have caused this to begin with. Instead Air Force counterintelligence manufactured nonexistent Mogul flights in 1994 to try to blunt an inquiry into Roswell from N.M. Congressman Steven Schiff.

Originally posted by debrisfield

Pflock argues by assertion, then gullible skeptics like Shrike cite his spin, opinion, or speculation as some sort of unarguable fact.

Well, as Sheridan Cavitt, who was there with Marcel at the crash site, said on Page 155 of the USAF report, "He's our chief debunker."

Of the three guys who were at the site, Marcel, Rickett and Cavitt, only Cavitt maintained the party line all the way to the grave. Even his own family didn't seem to believe him. Of course, in the interview with the USAF, Cavitt said about Rickett, "Rick would go off the deep end every once in a while. He was a
fantastic story teller. He worked for an insane asylum up in the Washington DC area. I think his
wife worked there, also. He would sit around and tell some of the most hilarious, ridiculous
stories about things that happened in this nut house, so to speak."

Of all the things to mention about the guy, Cavitt mentions that. Hmmmm . . . .

Originally posted by UFO Partisan
(snip)
"must have caused great consternation" . . . . "undoubtedly quickly became concerned." I actually considered picking up this book, but if this is the level of argument Pflock made, I'll pass. How does he know this? What evidence does he provide to back up this wild speculation? The level of research I find from the skeptics is consistently at a lower level than that of the UFO researchers which is far too often a very low bar to hurdle.

Instead of making up your mind about reading the book based only on a paragraph that I selected to illustrate a point, go ahead and read it through because I'm sure that even with its weak points, it offers more reliable data than the pro-crash authors. Pflock interviewed as many principal characters as were alive and he could and were willing to talk. He shows through the interviews that some things that people take for granted are not what they seem. Kal K. Korff also wrote a similar book and came to similar conclusions although Kal has to live down too much to be accepted as a worthwhile read. I have both books and I can say I've been enriched by each authors' contributions. I find Pflock's a bit superior and not because he uses 318 pages which is also my birth date! Just joking.

Originally posted by debrisfield
(snip)
Pflock was trying to make it sound like everything about Mogul, including the balloons, were somehow supersecret, therefore created an emergency military situation. It's all more lying from the debunking crowd to try to make a case for Mogul.

Of course, Pflock never really dealt with the embarrassing situation that there was never any unaccounted for Mogul that could have caused this to begin with. Instead Air Force counterintelligence manufactured nonexistent Mogul flights in 1994 to try to blunt an inquiry into Roswell from N.M. Congressman Steven Schiff.

Page 143, "ROSWELL:..." by Pflock:
"In the fall of 1990, Todd was sleuthing through a collection of Federal Bureau of Investigation documents having to do with UFOs, which had been released as the result of Freedom of Information Act requests filed by well-known ufologist Bruce Maccabee. Reading an FBI document concerning alleged "UFO crash debris" found by a Danforth, Illinois, farmer in August 1947, Todd noted something interesting. According to the report, when FBI agents had asked a senior U.S. Army civilian employee to examine the material, they were told it might be something from an army project with the code name Mogul. The FBI men were given no further details. Project Mogul was classified Top Secret, and they had no "need to know."

It seems to me that you know so much that allows you to say everyone else is wrong. Have you published your findings for all to read? If I knew as much as you seem to do, I'd have a book deal so fast it would make publishers make a beeline to my door.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Instead of making up your mind about reading the book based only on a paragraph that I selected to illustrate a point, go ahead and read it through because I'm sure that even with its weak points, it offers more reliable data than the pro-crash authors. Pflock interviewed as many principal characters as were alive and he could and were willing to talk. He shows through the interviews that some things that people take for granted are not what they seem.

There is a preview available at Amazon, so I'll take a look as soon as I get around to it. A couple more for instances regarding what is being taken for granted would be a help.

Originally posted by The Shrike
The original newspaper reports are of a balloon train debris field so what drove Ramey to announce UFO crash is not really a mystery

This statement contradicts itself The Shrike. Would you be so kind as to rephrase it please?

It is my opinion that neither Ramey or other personnel knew about these flights. But, still, I think that Ramey took the strange action he did because "Mac" Brazel came into town with news of his discovery thereby opening up a rat's nest which had to be covered real fast. It was Marcel who went to the Ranch and saw what was left of the balloon train and, possibly, knowing that this was not something to publicize might have escalated it to a UFO but when what was found was shown it had to be "declassified" to the truth which still doesn't sit well with those who want to believe alternative explanations.

I say it was balloon material as described by all who handled it.

OK fine The Shrike that's your opinion as you stated twice but not proven fact, so why the need to insult people who have a differing conclusion?

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown
reply to post by The Shrike

 

You still haven't answered my question The Shrike.

Why are you here? You say you already know the answer to this issue. So why do waste your time on these threads?

Do you believe you are really helping people by insulting them?

This is the third time I'm asking this question The Shrike.

Why won't you answer it?

This is the fourth time I'm asking this question The Shrike, why are you ignoring it?

Why are you here wasting your time here if you already know the solution.

Do you just enjoy insulting people?

edit on 30/12/1010 by Krusty the Klown because: (no reason given)

Here is The Shrike's response to this question, mind you it was in a private message, The Shrike does not obviously want to answer this question in public.

Your stupidity from: The Shrike sent: 31/12/1010 at 12:13 PM

Listen you unfunny klown, # off!

In a previous post you said I couldn't go head to head with you.....

Looks like you blinked.

Hilarious. LMAO!!!!

Prediction:

The Shrike will attack my credibility with every subsequent post I make but not address the facts in my posts..

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown
Prediction:

The Shrike will attack my credibility with every subsequent post I make but not address the facts in my posts..

Yes, "Shrike's" basic MO is to insult and not address points. If he does respond, it is usually to give some canned quote from his Roswell "Bible" by Pflock supposedly backing him up, but it never does, partly because Pflock's book itself is full of misinformation and propaganda. (The guy once worked for the CIA.)

Shrike strikes me as a lonely but nasty old man looking for attention. For what little it's worth, I would like to find out more about his story of learning about Roswell in 1957 when he was stationed in Morocco. Maybe, just maybe, there is something interesting there. More likely it will be just more self-delusional and ignorant BS, like his story of touching the "original Roswell debris" in the National Archives, or how more could be brought out of the Ramey memo photo negative using infrared light.

Originally posted by debrisfield
(snip)
Pflock was trying to make it sound like everything about Mogul, including the balloons, were somehow supersecret, therefore created an emergency military situation. It's all more lying from the debunking crowd to try to make a case for Mogul.

Originally posted by The Shrike
Page 143, "ROSWELL:..." by Pflock:
"In the fall of 1990, Todd was sleuthing through a collection of Federal Bureau of Investigation documents having to do with UFOs, which had been released as the result of Freedom of Information Act requests filed by well-known ufologist Bruce Maccabee. Reading an FBI document concerning alleged "UFO crash debris" found by a Danforth, Illinois, farmer in August 1947, Todd noted something interesting. According to the report, when FBI agents had asked a senior U.S. Army civilian employee to examine the material, they were told it might be something from an army project with the code name Mogul. The FBI men were given no further details. Project Mogul was classified Top Secret, and they had no "need to know."

What’s ironic here is that Shrike seems to think this passage from Pflock supports that everything about Mogul was supersecret. But it really does the opposite, if you know the details of what happened here. The relevant documents indicate that the reason the FBI was even asking about Project Mogul was because the Army told them about it BY NAME, even though AF counterintelligence debunkers in the present claimed the very name was also allegedly top-top-secret. Note in all the following documents mentioning Mogul by name, the classification is always very low (“confidential”) or not classified at all.

Let’s start with the FBI summary of what happened:

foia.fbi.gov... (p. 18)

A farmer in Danforth, Illinois, found a “disc” in his field, that was turned over to the FBI for examination. (The FBI at the time was assisting AF intelligence in investigating some of the disc cases.) The FBI contacted a Mrs. Whedon of the Army Engineers, who first informed them that the object was used by "Operation Mogul" in tests by the AF classified "Top Secret".

Thus, totally contrary to what Pflock and Shrike are claiming, the FBI was immediately told the name of Mogul, in fact it was offered unsolicited as the solution to the Danforth object, not hidden away as some supersecret project which was never even to be mentioned as existing.

What the FBI wasn’t told was the actual purpose (the only “Top Secret” part). If that weren’t the case, then why was the FBI told about Mogul at all, including its code name? As has been stated many times before, nothing about Mogul was classified except for the spying purpose. This included all the materials making up the balloons at the time of Roswell. What was classified about weather balloons or radar targets, all that rancher Brazel allegedly found? Absolutely nothing. Nobody would ever freak out over it.

At this point, the FBI handed the Danforth object over to AF intelligence, who forwarded it to Wright Field, who immediately determined it was a obvious hoax, had nothing to do with "Operation Mogul", and sent the report showing it was a hoax back to the FBI. Altogether, "Operation Mogul" was mentioned FOUR TIMES in this totally UNCLASSIFIED FBI memo.

Wright Field also did a detailed analysis of the Danforth “disc”, going into great deal as to where some of the parts of this hoax object came from. Here’s the lowly classified report (“confidential”) again cavalierly mentioning the unmentionable “’Mogul’ Project”.

foia.fbi.gov... (pp. 15-17)

Here are some other links to the same Wright Field report mentioning the name “Mogul” plus other related documents, again none of it classified:

www.bluebookarchive.org...
www.bluebookarchive.org...
www.bluebookarchive.org...

Thus the following Pflock spin about the supposed supersecrecy of Mogul is highly deceptive: "The FBI men were given no further details. Project Mogul was classified Top Secret, and they had no 'need to know'". But the real story was that the FBI was outright told about Mogul, in fact Mogul was initially being blurted out as a possible solution to the Danforth object, not being hidden from FBI eyes. Further Wright Field analyzed this "disc“, wrote this all up, and sent the report back to the FBI stating the object had nothing to do with Mogul.

Here is yet another unclassified document from Mogul engineer Charle’s Moore’s own files (reviewed by Moore and handed over to researchers in 1969) again blurting out the supposedly “Project Mogul”:

www.roswellproof.com...

See also Kevin Randle’s blog on this:

kevinrandle.blogspot.com...

Yet Moore claimed not knowing the allegedly supersecret codename “Mogul” until being told in the 1990s. Remember, this document is unclassified and, from Moore’s own files, and names him as the head engineer of the project. Further, Moore had to have known about this since at least 1969. Thus this was just another lie from Moore, promulgated by Pflock in his book, to again make it seem that Mogul was far more secret than it actually was.

Another thing weird about all this was the Dallas FBI memo from July 8, 1947, concerning what was found at Roswell. It stated that the alleged Roswell SINGLE balloon and attached radar target (not a multi-balloon Mogul) were being sent to Wright Field for yet further examination:

roswellproof.com...

At the very end, the FBI agent stated that Gen. Ramey’s contact man (an intelligence officer named Maj. Kirton) “would request Wright Field to advise Cincinatti [FBI] office results of examination.”

So surely if nothing but a balloon and radar target had been sent to Wright Field, the Cincinnati office would have been informed of this by Wright Field, just like the detailed analysis the FBI got back the following month on the Danforth object. Right? Wrong! Nobody has been able to find anything further in FBI files anywhere to indicate the FBI was told anything more. This included GAO investigators looking into this for N.M. Congressman Steven Schiff in 1994. In fact, nobody can find any other government paperwork on Roswell that should exist, including Wright Field receiving and examining the Roswell debris.

The Danforth object in no way supports that Mogul accounted for what happened at Roswell or that Mogul was so secret as to create an extreme overreaction by the military. The paperwork instead documents that “Project Mogul” was being blurted out everywhere, not that secret at all. The Dallas FBI memo also contradicts it, unless you believe an already nonexistent 28-balloon, 3-5 radar target Mogul could shrink down to exactly fit the FBI teletypes single balloon and radar target shipped to Wright Field, the single balloon story that Ramey was also publicly putting out.

Originally posted by debrisfield
Of course, Pflock never really dealt with the embarrassing situation that there was never any unaccounted for Mogul that could have caused this to begin with. Instead Air Force counterintelligence manufactured nonexistent Mogul flights in 1994 to try to blunt an inquiry into Roswell from N.M. Congressman Steven Schiff.

Again no response from Shrike (or other debunkers) who continue to duck the point that there is ZERO documentary evidence that the alleged Roswell Mogul balloon ever existed. Instead AF counterintelligence lied several nonexistent Mogul flights into existence to try to make the case that Mogul explained Roswell

Shrike also is ducking the other points I made that there was nothing secret about the balloons themselves, proven by the following FACTS:

* They publicly admitted to the flights from Alamogordo on July 9, 1947, the day after the Roswell press “flying disc” press release. This included a demonstration of them sending up a small balloon flight of two weather balloons and two radar targets and using such balloon flights to explain both Roswell and the other flying disc reports around the nation:

roswellproof.com...




Alamogordo New, July 10, 1947, Headline story
FANTASY OF THE "FLYING DISC" IS EXPLAINED HERE
--News Men Watch Army Radar Crew Launch "Disc"

July 11, 1947, El Paso (TX) Times, Front Page
'FLYING DISCS' MAY BE AIR FIELD BALLOONS'

July 17, 1947, Roswell Daily Record
ALAMOGORDO AIR FIELD WEATHER BALLOONS MAY HAVE ADDED TO FLYING DISK HYSTERIA




* Mogul personnel soon after wrote a very public scientific paper published in J. Meteorology the following year going into great detail on Mogul balloon configurations, equipment, tracking, and flight results, therefore obviously NONE of this material was classified. Again only the ultimate spying purpose was withheld.

* There was no way to conceal the flights on launch, in the air, or once the balloons crashed, as Mogul people interviewed by the AF debunkers themselves stated. In fact, they carried identification and reward tags in case they were found, encouraging people to report where they found them. One such example was only 3 days after the nonexistent “Roswell” Mogul flight of June 4. Rancher Sid West contacted Alamogordo to report finding the remains of Flight #6. Two guys in a jeep went out to pick it up. This again makes nonsense of Pflock’s propaganda that the military was frantic because rancher Brazel found an alleged Mogul balloon

Originally posted by UFO Partisan

Originally posted by The Shrike

Instead of making up your mind about reading the book based only on a paragraph that I selected to illustrate a point, go ahead and read it through because I'm sure that even with its weak points, it offers more reliable data than the pro-crash authors. Pflock interviewed as many principal characters as were alive and he could and were willing to talk. He shows through the interviews that some things that people take for granted are not what they seem.

There is a preview available at Amazon, so I'll take a look as soon as I get around to it. A couple more for instances regarding what is being taken for granted would be a help.

edit on 30-12-2010 by UFO Partisan because: (no reason given)

I use Amazon reviews myself but I find that on subjects such as this, the majority of reviews are by believers so that there is not an equal representation of POVs. With a grain of salt, I say.

Here's the first review, enthusiastic as heck!
5.0 out of 5 stars Should be listed under "reference" or "required reading"., July 30, 2001
By S. Reid "Milhouse-Vanhouten" (London, England) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME) Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: Roswell : Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe (Hardcover)

After plodding my way through this book, I came to one conclusion, Mr. Pflock has written the finest book on the events in and around Roswell, New Mexico during the early days of July, 1947. Don't let the term "plodding" distract or deter you, the book is pedantic as hell, and a good read nonetheless. This sort of treatment has been sorely lacking, and the recent spate of "pulp fiction" about Roswell hasn't helped anything.
Mr. Pflock includes photographs, documents, affidavits, everything the serious student of Roswell needs to make their own decision. Coming from the the "believer" side of the Extra-Terrestrial Hypothesis, Mr. Pflock has truly written a wonderful, exact, and incisive book.

Want to know what happened at Roswell? Buy it now. Don't be a cheapskate, buy a couple for yer friends. They make great Christmas gifts. Be a real doll and send one to Stanton Friedman, or Kevin Randle, they need this book. Oh, be extra generous and send one to Whitley Streiber and Art Bell, they REALLY need this book.

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by The Shrike
The original newspaper reports are of a balloon train debris field so what drove Ramey to announce UFO crash is not really a mystery

This statement contradicts itself The Shrike. Would you be so kind as to rephrase it please?

It is my opinion that neither Ramey or other personnel knew about these flights. But, still, I think that Ramey took the strange action he did because "Mac" Brazel came into town with news of his discovery thereby opening up a rat's nest which had to be covered real fast. It was Marcel who went to the Ranch and saw what was left of the balloon train and, possibly, knowing that this was not something to publicize might have escalated it to a UFO but when what was found was shown it had to be "declassified" to the truth which still doesn't sit well with those who want to believe alternative explanations.

I say it was balloon material as described by all who handled it.

OK fine The Shrike that's your opinion as you stated twice but not proven fact, so why the need to insult people who have a differing conclusion?

You're right that I contradicted myself. The sentence should have read: "The original newspaper reports are of a balloon train debris field so what drove Ramey to announce a UFO crash is really a mystery."

But there is still a prosaic explanation and it is that he had to report something for the army activities were evident. Since there had been other weather balloon "crashes" and he might have been aware of them, perhaps because he recognized that this one was not your average weather balloon but composed of additional components which he may not have had information on, being a secret project and all, he probably thought that an off-the-wall claim would ease off any investigation into what turned out to be a secret project. He erred on the side of caution.

You know, know there's a bible saying that the meek shall inherit the earth ("THE BOOK OF PSALMS" Psalm 37:11). Believers are the "meek" and IMO, there's nothing worse than the meek. They, meek/believer, are what is wrong with life on this planet. They make up the majority and they are in "control", overall, but not individually as long as there are critical thinkers. You know I'm not the only one who "insults" believers, most of the critical thinkers let go once in a while a vindictive against irrational thinking. It's aggravating to constantly have irrationality be the popular POV.

You'd have to be blind to not see that the believers, because of their number, insult critical thinkers. We have Phage, Jim Oberg, me, and others who are rational thinkers and don't accept anything willy nilly, dealing with believers' "rage". If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander!

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown
reply to post by The Shrike

 

You still haven't answered my question The Shrike.

Why are you here? You say you already know the answer to this issue. So why do waste your time on these threads?

Do you believe you are really helping people by insulting them?

This is the third time I'm asking this question The Shrike.

Why won't you answer it?

This is the fourth time I'm asking this question The Shrike, why are you ignoring it?

Why are you here wasting your time here if you already know the solution.

Do you just enjoy insulting people?

edit on 30/12/1010 by Krusty the Klown because: (no reason given)

Here is The Shrike's response to this question, mind you it was in a private message, The Shrike does not obviously want to answer this question in public.

Your stupidity from: The Shrike sent: 31/12/1010 at 12:13 PM

Listen you unfunny klown, # off!

In a previous post you said I couldn't go head to head with you.....

Looks like you blinked.

Hilarious. LMAO!!!!

You became a PITA, not worth my time. I contacted you privately because what I wanted to say could have resulted in my being banned. Besides, what I wanted to say to you would have been wasted in a public forum. But like an old fart, you have to air what should have been kept private. So as to keep me from generatig another private message which will be a waste of my time anyway, how about we agree to disagree and you ignore my threads and replies? So to repeat myself # off!

Originally posted by The Shrike

The original newspaper reports are of a balloon train debris field so what drove Ramey to announce UFO crash is not really a mystery

"The original newspaper reports" were the base press release saying they had recovered a "flying disc". Where is there anything about a "balloon train debris field?" And BTW, Mr. "Critical Thinker", it wasn't Ramey who put out the press release, but Roswell base commander Col. William Blanchard. Ramey was the guy who quickly changed it to weather balloon. "Critical thinkers" like you can't even be bothered to get the basics right.

It is my opinion that neither Ramey or other personnel knew about these flights. But, still, I think that Ramey took the strange action he did because "Mac" Brazel came into town with news of his discovery thereby opening up a rat's nest which had to be covered real fast. It was Marcel who went to the Ranch and saw what was left of the balloon train and, possibly, knowing that this was not something to publicize might have escalated it to a UFO but when what was found was shown it had to be "declassified" to the truth which still doesn't sit well with those who want to believe alternative explanations.

There was nothing classified about Mogul balloon equipment, therefore nothing to cover up. All Brazel would LATER describe, hours after Blanchard's press release of a flying disc and Ramey's retraction to SINGLE weather balloon/radar target (~1 pound), was finding a small quantity of "rubber strips" and sticks and foil, altogether no more than 5 pounds. He denied finding any string or wire by which the sticks and foils might have been held up by the presumed balloon. Thus no hundreds of yards of Mogul rigging and zero Mogul equipment. Then after saying all this, he stated he had previously found two weather balloons on his property, but what he found this time did not resemble these in any way and was definitely not any sort of weather device. In other words, he retracted his own story.

Now where is the "Mogul balloon train" in any of these descriptions, whether Ramey's single balloon/target (1 pound), or Brazel's 5 pounds of rubber strips/foil sticks? Except, wait, he then denies it and says it wasn't a balloon.'

I say it was balloon material as described by all who handled it.

More ignorance of the actual testimony, the vast majority of which in the present day is nothing like balloon material. E.g., Marcel, the intel officer, and the rancher's son, Bill Brazel Jr., both INDEPENDENTLY described "memory metal" and other material that couldn't be marked, bent, broken, or burned. The debris field described by them was also far larger than any Mogul balloon could possibly make. Marcel back in 1947 was actually quoted saying debris was scattered over a "square mile".

A compendium of witness descriptions of strange material can be found here:

www.roswellproof.com...

You're right that I contradicted myself. The sentence should have read: "The original newspaper reports are of a balloon train debris field so what drove Ramey to announce a UFO crash is really a mystery."

There were NEVER any "original newspaper reports" of a balloon train debris field, not at the beginning, not in the middle, nor at the end. Again you are making up your "facts" to fit your uncritical prejudices. You did the same thing with your ridiculous claim that you touched the original Roswell debris in the National Archives, when it was really a 1953 radar reflector found by the AF for their report, nothing to do with Roswell.

But there is still a prosaic explanation and it is that he had to report something for the army activities were evident. Since there had been other weather balloon "crashes" and he might have been aware of them, perhaps because he recognized that this one was not your average weather balloon but composed of additional components which he may not have had information on, being a secret project and all, he probably thought that an off-the-wall claim would ease off any investigation into what turned out to be a secret project. He erred on the side of caution.

Where does it ever say in the newspaper stories that there were "other components"? In fact there were specific denials--no rigging and no other equipment, not to mention a tiny amount of debris To say otherwise is again you making things up.

You know, know there's a bible saying that the meek shall inherit the earth ("THE BOOK OF PSALMS" Psalm 37:11). Believers are the "meek" and IMO, there's nothing worse than the meek. They, meek/believer, are what is wrong with life on this planet. They make up the majority and they are in "control", overall, but not individually as long as there are critical thinkers. You know I'm not the only one who "insults" believers, most of the critical thinkers let go once in a while a vindictive against irrational thinking. It's aggravating to constantly have irrationality be the popular POV

Is it "rational" to constantly make things up, treating your mere opinions and speculation as fact? Arguing rationally is first getting your facts straight. You could care less. If there are any "believers" here, it is you. You "believed" you touched the original Roswell debris. Only if it flew back in time, because the radar target you saw dated from 1953, which maybe you would have learned if you had bothered to read something outside of your sainted Pflock..

You'd have to be blind to not see that the believers, because of their number, insult critical thinkers. We have Phage, Jim Oberg, me, and others who are rational thinkers and don't accept anything willy nilly, dealing with believers' "rage". If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander!

You have yet to get anything right, cite your opinions as facts, refuse to address specific points, and continue to think you are the "rational thinker". Again, I ask you, where is the actual Mogul documentation to demonstrate there was ever a lost Mogul balloon train that could possibly have ended up on the Brazel ranch? But arrogant "critical thinkers" like you seem to believe that nonexistent balloons can account for what happened. That is about as irrational as it gets.

Very interesting.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by The Shrike


Ok, I have been reading all of the Shrike's comments. Obviously you are a vehement disbeliever in UFOs, Aliens, and the likes. However, remember the time period we are dealing with, 1947, post WWII, military very much still commands the respect and awe of civilians, even fear in many cases. No major TV stations per se, and even fewer TV's in homes. Radio broadcasts are localized as are newspapers. This really would be easy to contain under those conditions. If people were lead to believe that they would be arrested and tried for treason for speaking openly about the events, back then those ideals really stuck with people. Promoting the individual that initially claimed the "balloon" was an UFO, would be ridiculous. This is old school military, not the nicey nice politically correct can't offend or upset anyone world of today. They would have demoted if not court marshaled him. Further as to your statement about with the debris photographed and explained the case would not be won in court I must once again point out that this is the materials they wanted photographed, the explanation of the materials they wanted let out. I do not claim to know if this was an alien craft, a man made craft based on alien technology, a weather balloon, or a shiny kite. I will say that how can the air force, not just Marcel, but the entire air force, confuse what they say is a weather balloon with an alien craft of any type. If it was a balloon, especially from their or even a neighboring base, they were highly familiar with these. No false identification of those materials would have been made and if that had been the case I again state how would someone who made that big of an error in judgment remain in the military let alone be repeatedly promoted to higher rank and title within the military. Yes, I do believe there is a cover up. I believe Marcel's promotions bought his silence for as long as it did. I believe other air force officials who did not see the original wreckage were shown the debris of this "balloon" so they could be credible witnesses to detest the actual debris should it come into question. I've seen, read and listened to many varied opinions, documentaries, and programs about this event. While I can not say yes it was this I can not say it wasn't. I will not pretend to have all the answers either way. My beliefs are mine and are shared with many. I'm sure you feel the same, but the terms you use and the tone you set come off as defensive and angry. I don't scoff at those that have beliefs in religion, even though there once again is no proof of a higher being, a heaven, a hell, gods, goddesses, but look at how many in the world blindly take this on faith alone. Even to the point that non-believers in religion most likely celebrated Christmas. I'm not saying you have to see things from my point of view, it'd be useless for one, but you are entitled to your opinion. Remember though that's all it is and ever will be is an opinion. There are just to many things about the incident that do not add up for me in good faith to say the 2nd official report from the air force is the one I want to go with. I think they found what they initially said, then were told no you can't say that and therefore had to cover up the 1st report. That's my opinion and until proof 100% either way will be my stand on this.

Originally posted by eyeoftruth
Yes, I do believe there is a cover up. I believe Marcel's promotions bought his silence for as long as it did.

Well even the Air Force admits there was a cover up.

And when Marcel finally decided to speak out, what did he describe? Oddly enough, while he claims the stuff photographed with the Ramey memo is not what was found (possibly a true claim), he then goes on to describe what was actually found as material that would look almost exactly like that, thin, like the foil in a pack of cigarettes, but maybe smaller pieces, and, it had magical properties (A claim which might have been interesing had anyone made it in 1947, but NOBODY claimed magical properties in 1947, did they?) That part took decades of confabulation and even then the witnesses don't agree on the magical properties. Not only that but a claim "you can't cut it" is pretty well undefined. Cant cut it with what? A knife? How sharp is it? How much cutting pressure was used? Did he even have permission to be cutting this stuff up if it was to be sent off somewhere for analysis?

So I believe Marcel's story, to some degree, and he certainly spoke out eventually.

What would make his story a whole lot more interesting is if he said what he saw and recovered was a shiny metal flying saucer 30 feet in diameter. But instead what he describes is pretty much like what's in the photo, as far as it being a thin metal foil. As for the magical properties, without more specific description of exactly what tests were performed on the material and exactly how they were performed, combined with the recollection decades after the fact, these claims have a low accuracy weight in my evaluation. Which means it's really hard to rule out that what he found was really radar reflector material. And yes he's human and could make that mistake, especially since there was so much material and because he thought he saw alien writing. Remember, Marcel wasn't a balloon expert, as soon as the balloon expert saw what Marcel showed him, the balloon expert started laughing, and Marcel never convinced him it was alien writing or anything other than a radar target.

And don't forget that one word in the Ramey memo everyone agrees on is the word "balloon".

Originally posted by eyeoftruth
reply to post by The Shrike

 

Ok, I have been reading all of the Shrike's comments. Obviously you are a vehement disbeliever in UFOs, Aliens, and the likes. (Snip)

You know, I don't care if you just added me as a respected foe, I'm sick and tired of being accused by the seemingly ignorant members of being a "vehement disbeliever in UFOs". You obviously have not read anything I've posted all these years 'cause if you did you''d find that your comments are baseless. This is a major problem here not just with you but a lot of other short-sighted members who seem to be victims of reading comprehension..

Yes, I am a "disbeliever" in aliens but cut the crap out about being a disbeliever in UFOs! Criticize me all you want, I'm just expressing my point of view but try to deal with the thread and be a contributor. You can believe all you want but by believing you prove that evidence is immaterial. I don't believe and the evidence in the Roswell case is NOT for a UFO crash. Period! No UFO crash, no aliens, just a lot of b.s.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Yes, you have valid points, but the other thing they agreed on was Fort Worth TX, why would they be sending a crashed weather balloon to another base? I think the debris photographed was chosen because it was just similar enough to the actual crash materials, although only in looks and if not closely scrutinized, to be played off by any one that might have saw the actual materials at a distance. The government doesn't have photo opportunities for their mistakes. They'd simply issue a retraction statement and perhaps have a stock photo of the weather balloon for the press. In this case they actually laid out materials and made sure to take pictures for the press. Not really the style of our government/military in my opinion. Also, I believe Shriker said something at some point about actually having seen the Roswell crash debris some years later. I hope that is the truth, sincerely, because that would be further proof something isn't right with the situation. Why would they keep debris from a weather balloon for years after it crashed, unless they need it to satisfy those looking for the actual debris. These materials would have been scrapped as soon as they finished the clean up otherwise. Also, there are many reports of the large amount of military activity on the dates surrounding the event, seems overkill to clean up some foil attached to balsa wood if you ask me.