The Real Reason That You are Terrified of Latinos, Africans, Asians and/or Muslims

reply to post by TheRedneck


A person who is going to commit murder will do so whether or not it is against the law. A person who is not going to commit murder will not do so whether or not it is against the law.

I said that might makes property right. Something is only yours if you can keep it. The natives lost their land because the colonists forced them off of it. The colonists will lose their land if and when someone else forces them off of it (banks). An object belongs to you only so long as it is in your possession and if someone can wrest it from your hands and get away with it, then it belongs to them.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

OK, so the land is the property of the United States citizens because we can keep it (since we have for 200+ years). So why do you seem to have this problem with me and my nation defending ourselves against those who would take it (illegal immigrants)? Or are you somehow saying that we don't have the same right to keep what is ours, by force if necessary, as other peoples?

Are you also arguing that since we are in possession of the land, that we should use force to keep it from outsiders? To what extent? Should we simply kill anyone who we think might be a threat? Like illegal immigrants wading across the Rio Grande?

You would appear to be advocating mass violence against those you were originally defending as having every right to come here illegally...

TheRedneck

Smedley is all for free roaming people. Let's send him all our illegal immigrants. We'll be happy, the illegals will be happy to be welcomed and Smedley will be happy.

reply to post by TheRedneck


As I said in this post, this thread has a rhetorical purpose. Anti-immigration types are being suckered into doing the dirty work of counter-revolutionaries. They're turning against the liberty that supposedly makes America great and buying into a fascist vision of what the country ought to be.

Interesting thread.

I agree with a lot of you say. I was at one point sort of a Xenophobe. Not for out of fear that different cultures would overwhelm Canda for any reason. That's already happening and as far as I am concerned the more the merrier.

My problem, much like Redneck's is the changing of Canadian Identity to reflect one that is NOT Canadian. The same would go if I was an American, although the two countries are considerably different considering we are the Mosaic and America the melting pot.

I have absolutely no issues with foreigners coming to our great country and living the life they want with their morals, and their values. So long as they follow our laws and respect our heritage. They don't necessarily need to be part of it or adopt it, but they damn well better understand that it is that particular heritage that created this great country.

I don't even know why any Canadian would complain about immigration, considering we only have a handfull of residents in this GIANT country. That coupled with the fact that the immigration process is relatively easy, although time consuming.

~Keeper

Mexican, Koreans, And British immigrants have the same beef with their next generation - it is something that is technically described as acculturation. You can read about it here.
Their kids all embrace American culture not those of the old country.
en.wikipedia.org...

But more importantly you can do your own social research. Find any immigrant and look at their children, over time they become more and more American. They may have an accent but they are American. Their parents may not even speak English butt their Kids speak American English and are to all intnents and purposes American.

Has anyone been to Hawaii I and seen those of Chinese and Japanese decent? Are they not American? Don’t people think that most immigrants want to be American?

I believe that the detractors of the OP are forming straw men and tearing them down which is not an argument at all. There is an element of racism linked into to many of these debates as skin colour seems to be the issue those European immigrants seem to have a very easy time even the French.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

Yes, you did. You said:

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
Immigration restriction goes against freedom of movement.

But just above, in this post you said:

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
I said that might makes property right. Something is only yours if you can keep it.

Now forgive me if I seem confused, because I really am. In one post you claim a global right to freedom of movement, unrestricted, which is being denied to those immigrants which come to the United States illegally. Then you state that ownership of property is the right of only those who can protect it. So in order to own property, one must deny others this absolute right of freedom of movement, no?

Is there an absolute right to freedom of movement, meaning that I may freely roam anywhere I choose regardless of whop owns the property and must allow others to freely roam on mine, or is there an inherent duty in the ownership of property that requires me to either defend it against others or lose it?

You can't have it both ways.

Or will you finally admit that your world view is flawed and inconsistent?

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


I don't think that property actually exists. As explained before, there is no property of ownership in a thing. I was saying this in contrast to the more common type of libertarian, those who say that they should have maximum freedom from the government and each other and that their private property should be protected. I think that this kind of libertarianism amounts to shouting "MINE" and does not reflect true liberty.

reply to post by tiger5

Don’t people think that most immigrants want to be American?

I want a 2011 Dodge Ram 3500 diesel 4WD pickup with a Quad Cab on an extended frame. I am not willing at this time to pay for it. Should I steal one?

Wanting something and being willing to get it are two different things. In order to be American, one has to accept that this means they are giving up living amongst their old culture in order to live among a new one. That means, yes, learn to speak at least basic English... accept that your children will not grow up immersed solely in your old culture.... accept that you must follow the laws of your new home.

You make a good point about second generation immigrate families assimilating into the indigenous culture around them. But a large part of that is because the indigenous culture is retained. Today, we have governments and schools removing this factor by allowing those who do not wish to simply learn to speak the language an opportunity to do everything in their native language, and thus placing the services of the government at a great disadvantage of having to accommodate literally hundreds of different languages.

Without this social pressure to conform balanced against the familial pressure to retain, the immigrant family will not assimilate as readily.

I ask you: what is wrong with expecting those who wish to be Americans to respect America?

There is an element of racism linked into to many of these debates as skin colour seems to be the issue

I believe you are the first one to mention skin color in this thread.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Respecting America means respecting the idea of liberty that it is founded on, or it should mean that instead of respecting the culture of the people already living there. It's not Cajun culture that makes America respectable, fascinating though it may be. It is liberty that is supposed to define America and distinguish it from other countries.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

I don't think that property actually exists.

All I can say to this is that I hope no one with your view decides they want the computer you are using. I would hate to think that your Internet access was gone.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people seem to despise the things they also enjoy. Here you are, debating on the Internet with someone from over a thousand miles away... and judging from the number of pages we have bantered back and forth, enjoying it as much as I am. And yet, you seem to long for nomadic life, without a home to call your own, without possessions, without any of the modern toys we have developed.

That is what you are espousing here. Without a home, one cannot hold a job or conduct business. Without a way to provide to society and receive rewards for such, one cannot improve themselves. Without improvement, society crumbles and the technology that grows from it vanishes. Nomadic life was the norm for many ancient peoples. It gave way to permanent residences because society could not advance and grow and learn otherwise.

So again, flawed logic.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Someone is free to try to take my computer, but I am free to clock him, and he knows it, and he chooses not to get clocked.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

Someone is free to try to take my computer, but I am free to clock him, and he knows it, and he chooses not to get clocked.

Why would you choose to clock somebody over something that wasn't yours to begin with??? That computer doesn't belong to you because you don't believe in property (your words not mine)

reply to post by jheated5


Because I want it to stay in my house for my convenience. If I can keep it, then it remains 'mine.'

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
reply to post by jheated5

 

Because I want it to stay in my house for my convenience. If I can keep it, then it remains 'mine.'

edit on 23-12-2010 by SmedleyBurlap because: (no reason given)

So you're saying Americans want to stay in their country for convenience, If we can keep it, it remains "ours".... If anyone decides they want to take that from us we should beat them to a bloody pulp right? You are contradicting yourself at every angle here.....

Sorry I cannot negotiate the quotes so I will cut and paste

You wrote "I want a 2011 Dodge Ram 3500 diesel 4WD pickup with a Quad Cab on an extended frame. I am not willing at this time to pay for it. Should I steal one?"

OK that is your muscle car. I support your right to lust after that Dodge. I want an Aston Martin I don't mind if it is ten years old. I want a Diesel model which may be a big problem. The Aston Martin is seriously cool.

I am not prepared to break the law. I would urge you not to do so also.
Are you equating Immigrants with law breaking? If so where is the proof. Most immigrants do not want to break the law. Also isn’t there a system whereby immigrants get deported after serving their time in Jail? Breaking the law is counter productive. I am not romanticising the Immigrant I am looking at them as pragmatists.

You wrote "Without this social pressure to conform balanced against the familial pressure to retain, the immigrant family will not assimilate as readily" Actually what is the economic reality? Not learning to speak the language of the land obviously impairs the ability to get a job or get a better paid one. Jobs are getting hard to come by in the US. .

You wrote “I believe you are the first one to mention skin color in this thread”. I am glad that you have noticed but when people refer to Muslims, Africans and Latinos I would argue that most of these as portrayed in popular parlance are brown skinned or what used to be called swarthy people. I have no problem with honest and honourable debate.

“I ask you: what is wrong with expecting those who wish to be Americans to respect America?” Well there is no problem at all. Respect the law, manners and customs of the country you are in. Personally when I was an Englishman abroad as opposed to an American citizen I did not even jaywalk. I think American prisons must suck why aspire to incarceration?

I have seen many of the immigant bashing posts as very unsavoury and bordering on xenophobic. Too many people have a rosy and ridiculous view of the "Good old days" for some this time was the 1950s for others it was even further back.

reply to post by tiger5

I am not prepared to break the law. I would urge you not to do so also.

It is not my intention to do so. That was the apparent intent of my opponent, rephrased in a more specific method to show the folly of his remarks.

Are you equating Immigrants with law breaking? If so where is the proof. Most immigrants do not want to break the law.

Seriously? You are not aware of the ongoing debate in the US about illegal immigration?

Statistical estimates suggest that there were 11 million illegal migrants residing in the United States as of 2008.

Source: www.buzzle.com...

Crossing the border into the United States is a crime. Crossing the border into Mexico is a felony crime and can get one shot on sight.

Actually what is the economic reality? Not learning to speak the language of the land obviously impairs the ability to get a job or get a better paid one. Jobs are getting hard to come by in the US.

You just expounded on the economic reality. The political reality is that pressure is now on the US population to become multi-lingual in order to make life easier for illegal immigrants who refuse to learn to speak English.

I am glad that you have noticed but when people refer to Muslims, Africans and Latinos I would argue that most of these as portrayed in popular parlance are brown skinned or what used to be called swarthy people.

I believe I have made it clear in this thread that I have no racial issue with anyone. This is not about race; it is about moral right and wrong, and about the population of the USA's right to exist as a people and as a culture.

I have seen many of the immigant bashing posts as very unsavoury and bordering on xenophobic.

It is a common debating tactic. Ignore, even celebrate, an issue which has strong emotional backing (such as the right to survive as a culture), and the average person will become so angry as to appear to be what they are not... in this case xenophobic. I consider it an underhanded practice, but the fact is that it is also a very effective practice.

It is also known colloquially as "playing the race card".

TheRedneck

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

Because I want it to stay in my house for my convenience. If I can keep it, then it remains 'mine.'

Is that not denying the freedom of movement to others? Does that not make you, by your own definition, xenophobic?

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Well I did not think that the OP’s main topic was one in support of illegal Immigration despite him significantly mentioning it. I feel that his discussion was one about xenophobia. BTW I do not support illegal immigration. It is a very common tactic to attack various groups of people who look different as illegals I have had the same thing happen to me in LAX whilst in transit to Hawaii. Sadly I must have made on of the homeland security goons’ day as I had to present him with a business card stating all of my professional and academic qualifications as perhaps he never heard of a black academic achiever!

Where do you stand with regard to legal immigration? Now that is the question….

I cannot justify Xenophobia. There are several culture that I do not have much interest in but I can be polite and mannerly around them. My main view is that most of us work for our crumbs. When TSHTF we may all need to pull together for survival because TPTB will not help us..

I am not sure about the issue of multi –lingualism. I was in California when Pete Wilson blocked the attempt to make Spanish the first language. I believe that multilingualism may be a wrong turn. I would urge all immigrants to learn the language of the host country. Again the children do just fine and I know Canada has French programmes for immigrants.

I do not believe that American culture is under threat from Immigrants so there is no need for panic. The simple fact is that everyone likes a party. We all celebrate Saint Patrick’s day in NY. We all like to Salsa. Most American mayhave a secret recipe for chillie but mine is the best!

Cultural identities are very flexible but should multi-lingualism be passed I would argue America will not collapse because of it.

I'd say xenophobia is a test meant to be overcome.

It could be THE test.