Question about Old Test. v/s New Test. God

reply to post by gncnew


I found the ATS post that someone wrote about the old testament gods.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by gncnew
I equate this to the story of Moses pleading with God for his people after he comes down the mountain and finds them worshiping idols. God then apparently decides NOT to kill them all, but commands Moses to kill all the offenders.

Ok - story makes sense, but there are specific parts of the bible that state God's will is perfect. If it's perfect, why does he allow himself to be swayed by Moses? If God's mind can't be changed, why are there stories of him changing his will based on the requests of His people?

This is quite simple for me to understand. Ever had a parent give you an order, or ask you to do something that seemed only to get you to question it? When we question something we really start to understand what's going on rather than blindly follow along.

In the Old Testament His people could never understand the simple concepts of "Love one another as yourself" that Jesus taught, so they had to be shown what to do. These people where commanded, shocked and persuaded into belief. For exactly what reason? To show the rest of us the right way to do it. Being compelled to live a just and pure life by force is exactly the reason for the first War in Heaven, however the early Jews where unable to take themselves out of the cycle of Master and Servant.

As to why conflicts in Orders, do not kill.... unless I tell you to? It is better for a single life to end than for an entire nation to dwindle in unbelief. The needs of the many out way the needs of a few. It is my belief that it's this simple principle at work here. It's better that those people died so that those who came later would have the knowledge and teachings passed on by those who lived. Also, it's my belief that those who where killed will be given another chance to accept that which they passed up on in this life. After all God is just, right?

reply to post by gncnew

Originally posted by gncnew
This post is a serious question for those who believe in God. This is not intended to be a thread to question Faith in God, nor to point out different theories of religion. This post is intended for intelligent and constructive discussion between Christians, not for those who are not Christians to dump their agenda in.

Too bad, I'm posting in this thread just because you said that.

Mods, I ask that you please help keep it clean on that perspective.

I'm sorry, but the Mods aren't your personal gestapo.

Question:

When reading the Old Testament we see a fearful and wrathful God. A God that inflicts horrible plagues and punishments on His people when they disobey - albeit after MANY please for them to repent.

And he orders genocides, destroys random cities, and enacts all sorts of other arbitrary violence.

In the New Testament we see a God that is loving and merciful who only wishes to wash his people - in fact, ALL people in Grace and forgiveness.

Eh....not exactly. God goes through a blood sacrifice to allow this. In fact, God is just as arbitrary in the New Testament in this regard. Why would a being referred to as 'almighty' need to perform any sort of sacrifice?

Also, the New Testament is intolerant as all get out. There's the insane prejudice towards women too. I could actually go on for a while, but I'll just talk about the grace with regard to a passage from Matthew.

Matthew:

10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This God teaches (through Christ) that we should respect all life as part of his creation and do to others as we would have done to us.

Wow, Jesus parrots a line that's found 500 years earlier in China.

Of course, there's nothing in the NT that says we should respect all life. I mean, clearly those that don't accept the apostles aren't to be respected.

I don't pretend that I can know the mind of God, but I have a hard time reconciling a God that today tells us to always respect and love life, to always show mercy and Grace, to always show love instead of malice - with a God that showed such a disregard for human life and would command His people to commit horrendous acts of violence that would scar them.

Here's how to reconcile them: See the back of the book. Revelations is a bloody and vengeful book.

Or you could simply say...I dunno...the God of the Bible is a horribly written and inconsistent fictional character created by ancient, ignorant individuals, written about by various groups of ignorant individuals, and forced into primacy by sociopolitical forces more than anything else.

Again - I know his will is perfect and his plan is perfect, but why the stark difference?

You can't actually know that. Also, his plan is definitely not perfect, he rigged the Garden of Eden didn't he?

Why would God ask people to do things that obviously would cause them emotional and pharmacological scars (i.e. kill every living thing in a village/town)?

Because...he didn't. He doesn't exist and people have been doing horrible things in the name of religion for ages.

Why does God show such a lack of value on human life (i.e. sending snakes through the people and killing thousands in minutes) - but then ask us to show the opposite?

Again, inconsistent fictional character is the best answer.

Christ seems to almost be in direct contrast with the God of Old Law?

I'm sorry, but how? Sure, he says a few good things, but I don't agree with most of what Jesus said.

Thoughts?

Well, this is a fairly sloppy, exclusionary thread with absolutely no references. You do have a curious question, but you should go for the simplest answer.

reply to post by gncnew


I am not a Theologian or a scholar, but i will give it a try. This is my point of view, based on my faith as a Greek Orthodox Christian.

When reading the Old Testament we see a fearful and wrathful God. A God that inflicts horrible plagues and punishments on His people when they disobey - albeit after MANY please for them to repent.

In the New Testament we see a God that is loving and merciful who only wishes to wash his people - in fact, ALL people in Grace and forgiveness. This God teaches (through Christ) that we should respect all life as part of his creation and do to others as we would have done to us.

First you have to understand the Bible. The Bible reveals God's will, the relationship between the Israelites and God, the wonders of Christ and the early history of the Church. The Scriptures are understood to contain historical fact, poetry, idiom, metaphor, simile, moral fable, parable, prophecy, and wisdom literature.

In the OT we see a fearful and wrathful God because, at some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice, to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as “the fall of man” and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. You can clearly see it throughout the OT. From Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, even with God´s chosen people the Israelites.

The "Original Sin" is this adoption of evil into human nature. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind’s ultimate dilemma.

In the NT we see the solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. That effect was Christ Jesus which He was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God’s participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of hell.( As i reject the idea that Christ died to give God "satisfaction.") The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve.

So that is the reason, why you see a fearful and wrathful God in the OT, and a Loving God throughout NT.

Peace

reply to post by gncnew


It seems that it because Yahweh was morally beaten by Job.

At least that is what C.G. Jung effectively pointed out. You might wanna read Jung's "Answer to Job".

-v

reply to post by gncnew


There is a very simple answer to this, one which Christians refuse to accept (and we can blame Paul for that):
They are two different Gods.
It is right there for anyone to see.
"Let the reader understand."

I applaud you for noticing.

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by gncnew

 

It seems that it because Yahweh was morally beaten by Job.

At least that is what C.G. Jung effectively pointed out. You might wanna read Jung's "Answer to Job".

-v

edit on 13-12-2010 by v01i0 because: 2345

Dont know about that. God called Job a know it all and set him back on his ass a bit.

reply to post by Seed76

I agree with what your saying.
[OT to learn the difference between good and evil]

I like to think simple.
Like a foot ball game, God's Team verse Satan's Team.
They have been fighting since almost beginning of time.
Gods team loses a few plays to start with.
At half time God brings out His Star Player Jesus.
From then on the game changes directions.
And we "All Know" who won the game.

Here, I'll make it real easy for you.
























God doesn't exist.

reply to post by gncnew


My two cents here. The God of the Old Testament was a vengeful and jealous deity, that is for sure. He admits that he created evilLam. 3:38, Jer. 26:3, 36:3, Ezek. 20.:25-26, Judges 9:3, 1 Sam.
16:23, 18:10)
He told people to lie(Ex. 3:18, 1 Sam. 16:2
He lied (Gen 2:17, 2 Sam. 7:13)
He rewarded liars (Ex. 1:15-20)
He delivered a man, Job, into Satan's hands (Job 2:6)
He mingled (had sex with?) a perverse spirit (Isa. 19:14)
He made false prophecies (Jonah 3:4. Gen. 5:10)
He caused adultery (2 Sam. 12:11-12)
He killed (Num. 16:35, 21:6, Deut. 32:39, 1 Sam. 2:26, Psalm 135:10)

These are but a few of the evil deeds performed by the God of the OT. The NT, as those of us who study on such things and matters, was most likely written by a family in Rome, the Piso Family.
I am inclined to think that the NT was written at the behest of Emperor
Constantine during the The Council of Nicea.
The Council of Nicea was said to have taken place in 325 A.D. by the order of the Roman Emperor, Caesar Flavius Constantine. Nicea was located in Asia Minor, east of Constantinople. At the Council of Nicea, Emperor Constantine presided over a group of Church bishops and leaders with the purpose of defining the true God for all of Christianity and eliminating all the confusion, controversy, and contention within Christ’s church. The Council of Nicea affirmed the deity of Jesus Christ and established an official definition of the Trinity—the deity of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit under one Godhead, in three co-equal and co-eternal Persons. In one fell swoop, the Goddesses and Gods of old were wiped out, and all Gods became one, and that one was three, all male, Gods.

Constantine, a converted Christian (debatably), called for a council meeting to be held in Nicea with the bishops of the Christian church to resolve escalating quarrels, war actions and controversy mounting to a bitter degree of non unity among the church leadership concerning theological issues. The failing Roman Empire, now under Constantine’s rule, could not withstand the division caused by years of hard-fought, “out of hand” arguing over doctrinal differences. Constantine saw it not only as a threat to Christianity in general, but as a threat to all of Roman society as well. So, at the Council of Nicea, Constantine demanded that the Christians settle their internal disagreements and become agents of Christ (the new God) who could bring new life into a troubled, beaten-down empire. Constantine felt “called” to use his authority to help bring about the unity, peace, and love, all for which Christ stands. He and the bishops had reason to worry about the future survival of Christianity within the Roman world empire, let alone the survival of his own world empire. The Council of Nicea, led by Emperor Constantine, was the meeting to settle differences. In other words, they made it all up, and imposed a Canon on everyone, and from that day forth, the church had ultimate rule, even over Kings. Jesus would have never existed, or never been a God, if not for the Council.

Even today most never read the Bible, never research anything taught in Church, and never question anyone concerned about it. Nice little scam here, folks. Believers out of the box, teach them as children to fear going to Hell, and you have a lifetime income in the billions every year, and the leaders live in the lap of luxury at your expense. Never pay a dime in property tax, and own the best of the prime real estate in the county. Hold gambling parties without fear of arrest, and have the ear of the President of the united States, while the people can never even get close.
This is the main reason I am so hard on organized Christianity. Knowing the truth of the matter escapes the average Christian, who is sternly warned not to ever question the "word of God, " or anything else they are told. They believe what they are told in church, but everyone else is a liar. The Bible is the only real truth, all other writers are inspired by the Devil. Everything fun is a sin, and you are going straight to Hell is you do not do this or that. Sad.

reply to post by careface


[to you he does not exit], good for you.
To me his does.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by v01i0
It seems that it because Yahweh was morally beaten by Job.

At least that is what C.G. Jung effectively pointed out. You might wanna read Jung's "Answer to Job".

Dont know about that. God called Job a know it all and set him back on his ass a bit.

v01i0 said "morally" beaten, not beaten by raw power.

Which is the whole point made in the book. It really is a great book; I second the recommendation except I already recommended it in this thread.

reply to post by Unity_99


Unity, it is always a pleasure to read your posts, so wise and so educated in these matters. I love what you said, it makes perfect sense. If we all became just like Jesus was, this would be a near perfect world. Sadly though, that will never happen. Oh, in our original forms, maybe. But the Annunaki took care of that when the altered our DNA, first by stripping off 10 of the original 12 strands, leaving us with just 2. then they created religion, and posed as Gods, and made war with each other, and involved man in these wars. Read the OT and every time "God" says something, substitute "God" with "ET Being." It makes a lot more sense that way.

reply to post by Seed76

First you have to understand the Bible.

Friend, I have read through and studied the Bible for many years, and I still cannot fully understand it, neither can you. How can anyone understand the Book of Isaiah?, most likely written by 8 different personalities. With all of the different Gods in the Bible, how do you know which one is the real one?

That effect was Christ Jesus which He was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit.

And the evidence of this can be found...where? Show me records, show me proof. A God is not a Man, and a Man is not a God.

thus saving us from the fate of hell.

Oh, pardon me, I forgot about the FEAR FACTOR of Christianity. Every research the origin of Hell, friend? It began a a trash heap outside of the walls of Jerusalem, the poor who could not afford a tomb just threw their dead on the pile, which was kept burning because of disease. So that must be where all the sinners will go. also, another thing. The dimensions of Heaven are recorded in the Bible, true? Figure it up, it was full a very long time ago.

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened

Which is the whole point made in the book. It really is a great book; I second the recommendation except I already recommended it in this thread.

Gosh, my bad!

But yeah, it is great book and sheds some light into the "moral" gap between old and new testament.

-v

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
after a few years of Bible reasearch...it's right in front of your eyes.....
in john it is given to us, the phrase that all love.....and an angel spoke saying "peace on Earth ....goodwill toward men"
this was after jesus was born
it doesn't mean men will have goodwill....this states the new results that God is now no longer at emnity with his created man...THE BATTLE WAS OVER....good news.... huh!!!

edit on 13-12-2010 by GBP/JPY because: THE WAR IS OVER

Hmmm, that makes sense. But wasn't sin God's enemy, not Satan, not man, but sin? That which is not of God is God's enemy.

Originally posted by v01i0
Gosh, my bad!

Hey, no harm done. Just happy to see more fuel on the fire. I'm the one who starred your post.

reply to post by NewlyAwakened

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened

Just happy to see more fuel on the fire. I'm the one who starred your post.

Likewise, likewise

It seems that we form a small block on a thread where there are strict believers, believers in Anunaki, Atheist and so on...

It is no wonder that I found our stance to be most rational

In all seriousness though, I always read posts of other people with great interest, no matter how far fetched. There's always a chance to learn something new.. If not about the issue itself, but perhaps about people

Thank you for your compliment

-v

Originally posted by etherical waterwave
Pepsi78


To your question who God is I would like to say the one by whom all truth and justice is known, all knowledge, all wisdom and the one who is able to make miracles, the one whom is almighty!

edit on 2010/12/13 by etherical waterwave because: (no reason given)

Then what is god, is it a man the father ? is it the supernatural force ? or is mother nature?
You will get bored of how many galaxies are out there ?
I would go for the supernatural, god can't be a man.