NEWS: Bush Asks Church To Give Membership Lists.

In a new drive for votes Georgie Bush has turned to god and has gotten his answer:



Has Georgie crossed the line this time? Is this attempt to interject his campaign directly into the church gone to far? Of some of the low campaign tactics I've seen this is by far the most disgusting and belligerently disrespectful one that's come down the road in a long time.

[edit on 2-7-2004 by John bull 1]

What can I say when a candidate gets desperate enough I guess calling for religious groups to back up political agendas and to influence the masses for them is ok, and who say that state and church should be separated? After all this was for the rights of the church not the state. Right?

Bush knows that his time and momentum of glory is coming to an end. So he needs all the prayers he can get.

Originally posted by marg6043
What can I say when a candidate gets desperate enough I guess calling for religious groups to back up political agendas and to influence the masses for them is ok, and who say that state and church should be separated? After all this was for the rights of the church not the state. Right?

Bush knows that his time and momentum of glory is coming to an end. So he needs all the prayers he can get.

umm seperation of church and state means the government cant force religion on people or enforce religious laws or things like tthat, it doesnt violate that to ask for support from the people of a religion, nor is it a violation for religious groups to support a political agenda or leaders, learn the constitution a bit better because its clear what it means "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

and it isnt a desperate move because over 80% of the population is christian, and about half of them conservative christians so it is an important group to go after in an election.

Oh, this makes me sooooo mad!!

I once hear Jimmy Falwell say that "With the help of the President, we will be a Christian nation"

My brother was told by his minister last weekend to call anyone he thought might go see "Farenheit 911" and tell them they will go to hell if they see it.
Un-American.

He called my mother and had her in tears. He harassed her until she hung up crying.

Nice.

This is increadible that people in this country are still been intimidated by their religious leaders, this people are as human as all of us and when somebody make a phone call and make somebody cry like that is call harrasment and the police should be involved, this is a democracy we have rights.

Tesla, just face it, war is comming and you can settle all your differences with the religions there.

Only one problem, 90% of America is religious enough that if we had a religious war you'd be severely butt-whooped.

Nah the war coming is again a war for States' rights, obviously our nation won't hold together much longer with such ideological differences, a lot of steam is going to be be blown-off.

And there is nothing wrong with Bush seeking the Churches to campaign for him.

Kerry is having the Rainbow Brigade and the Pro-Choice groups try and campaign for him.

You can't segregate religion from any other group on any basis what-so-ever. Groups are groups, either you allow the candidates to seek support with them, or you are a moronic fool.

Marg6043, we're not a democracy, the fact you don't understand that makes me sick, you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

See my signature for a glimps of what we are.

Free Mason (sic) has appointed itself commisar for who is allowed to vote.

It's pretty obvious that you think only SOME people should be allowed to have opinions, and only as long as they agree with you.

That pretty much means that democracy is a charade, a sham, a specialized jargon we hide behind when we try to control other people. Let's just take off the masks and end the charade. You don't believe in the common person. I don't think I do either.

I think I just gave up on democracy.

Why is it so sickening for a republican to USE a church, when Democrats have a proud history of candidates PREACHING from pulpits in African American churches? Gore gave a political speech from a pulpit in Chicago in 2000, which should have ruined the church's non-profit status. Would have, if the congregants handn't been a minority. . . .

Anyway. I am no longer in favor of democracy. I hereby come out of the populist closet.

SO what Am I.

I think I'm a monarchist.

monarchy of me.

I am the monarchist
and I am not antichrist
and I
wanna be---
MONARCHY!

dr_strangecraft, I don't believe anyone that is under 21, or too stupid to understand how our political system is supposed to work, or how it was intended by the Founding Fathers and WHY, should vote.

But since the latter is a qualitative judgement and thus more difficult, that'll probably never happen, however the 26th Amendment should be repealed along with a few others.

Democracy is most certainly not "specialized jargon" it is a specific attempt to destroy what the United States is. A Union of States.

Regards to Tesla.
The Ashcroft Bush thinking is with enough prisons, torture chambers and Christian Gestapo 'We will make this a Christian nation' no matter how many civil liberties they have to trample. They have ways of forcing you to willingly give your soul to God. Bush and Ashcroft are 'Full of the Love of Christ" and are happy to kill you to prove it. If this country wont fall in lockstep with their Christian doctrine they can always destroy it.

Ah the joys of 'Compasionate Conservatism' (And the Bull# meter goes off the scale).

The bad thing about this news is that many churches may lose their tax-exempt status because Bush's clan isn't specifying them to hold bi-partisan campaign drives. Ultimately, yes it will be the fault of the churches themselves, but what do you expect they'd do from the advice of our current president?
If I was on one of those church directories I would be very angry when I got soliticited by these people. Watch out for the new telemarketers, the Bushies, trying to make you pay them money for your vote

Free Mason must be afraid that he has no convincing argument that can persuade independant thinking people to his way of thinking. Perhaps he doesn't have the intellectual firepower. He sounds like he wants to live in some Orwellian political monoculture. Thought Police man your mindreaders and guns, we have brains to chain.

I wonder if he's contacted the Church of Satan to ask for their membership list ?

Slank I made an intellectual argument.

"And there is nothing wrong with Bush seeking the Churches to campaign for him.

Kerry is having the Rainbow Brigade and the Pro-Choice groups try and campaign for him.

You can't segregate religion from any other group on any basis what-so-ever. Groups are groups, either you allow the candidates to seek support with them, or you are a moronic fool."

I guess that just went over your pea-sized brain.

Free Mason is being a little crass in his wording, but on the points themselves he is right. It' is not "clearly illegal" as one of the separationist groups in that article claimed. Namehere correctly pointed out that it is illegal to establish a state religion or show clear preference towards (or against) any certain religion. Because asking for voter support is not a policy matter, it has nothing to do with separation of church and state.
That doesn't make this a smart move though. Does Bush honestly not realize that he is offending a key constituency? Fox has tried to pull the african american community back into play by suggesting that the way democrats take their votes forgranted might make them receptive to Bush. This has been given some credence by the reaction Kerry got from the rainbow coalition. So how could Bush fail to see that he runs the same risk with Christians if he is too aggressive about their turn-out without even tossing them a bone?

As for the war that Freemason thinks is coming- it's a ways off, if it's coming at all. States rights caused the civil war because of a major issue which affected the economy and a way of life. The major issue of states rights now is gay marriage. It's not worth fighting over to the opposing side, and the supporters who do find it worth a fight simply aren't numerous enough to produce more than a few good city riots- no true rebellion.

The issue which does hold the potential to start a major civil conflict is medical insurance. This issue is has all but destroyed the grocery store workers union, and will continue to lower wages and increase prices while creating an adversarial relationship (or more of one than already exists) between organized labor and employers. Poverty, anger, and a percieved attack on the political standing of the common citizen- these are the seeds of a socialist movement. There are several possible scenarios.
1. The next generation, free of the cold-war indoctrination against "commies" will back an increasingly more socialist democratic part, split and form a new dominant left-wing party (socialist), or simply riot and rebel on a massive scale, until the popularity of the movement is so unquestionable that troops coup rather than put them down. (alternately, there could be a crackdown, establishing an authoritarian pseudo-republic, which would quicly fall somewhere near Russia's current economic and political stature, if it wasn't already there as a result of the issues actually causing all of this.
2. If things degenerate quickly enough, the democratic party could go socialist or give birth to a socialist offshoot, or be replaced by a popular third party in the relatively near future. If this party gained any authority though, there would be a revolution from the older generation, which is heavily indoctrinated against communism. Many American troops might go with this movement. There is also the possibility of a rebellion, especially if there was a percieved crack-down on socialists, or if their failure to come to power was seen as a sign of corruption (real or not).

In my opinion, limited socialism would be a good idea. We just need to PLAN it and phase it in, while leaving most industries free. In the long run, I believe that all vital utilities should be socialized. Peoples ability to live is not something to profit from. That being said, it would take a major reform in the government and a slow introduction to prove that our government wouldn't ruin it. Last but not least, it would never fly if we don't stop illegal immigration. I know how to do that, but you'll call me a right-wing maniac.

Ya know, that's a little scary. What's he going to do with the list after the election? Use it to put the Christians in concentration camps?

Oh no Vagabond! You committed sacriledge!

J/k

But really, you completely left out ideological differences, the first Civil War was caused by economic conditions (the South paying for Northern Industry). But now we have an equally if not more volatile problem, ideology, States are being asked to change their moral standards to fit the ideological view-points of a few.

While the South would rather just leave the Union than put up with Federal tariffs, the States can only take so much forcing of actual core moral values, before they finally snap.

As I said, it's hard to tell when it will come, like the Civil War it will explode over night over a major issue.

The Civil War literally went from unthinkable in 1859 to happening in 1861.

1860 is known as a period of "Secessionitis".

The catalyst for then was Abraham Lincoln and the Republican party being so popular and finally, Lincoln being elected.

When the catalyst comes it'll hit hard amongst the more anti-federal states (the ones that don't receive many benefits from the Government especially) and those fall in geographical groups, West-South anti-federal and North and East fall more towards pretty pro-federal States. (this just looking at an economic dependency on the Feds coinciding with partisan divisions which also show ideological divisions.)

If that catalyst were tomorrow, who knows where we'd be in a year.

The catalyst will be simply put, the Federal Government enforcing an ideology that a state does not agree with, in the wrong area.

The reason this didn't happen with the Civil Rights movement was obvious, oppression of blacks in the South was not a "core value".

But religion is, and as religious beliefs are more and more oppressed (we've ran out of moderate oppressions such as teaching Creationism), the situation will grow more volatile.

Hell I was surprised nothing picked-up in Alabama over the Ten Commandments, but that was wheeling a 5,000 lbs stone into another room, far from blood-worthy.

But when the Feds try to change an actual state law in any number of these catalytic states, Nevada, Texas, most the South.

The situation I doubt will be so similar.

In conclusion, I think you should just ask more people Vagabond, that you know about Civil War.

I'm not sure where you are, and I can only speak for my area, but I was surprised when I first began to talk to people about a coming Civil War, and finding this was something on many people's minds as well.

I live in a very anti-federal area, Nevada, and near the North Eastern Californians who are also pretty anti-federal.

So it's not so much that people like us are few and far between, but that there is not any real focusing events going on right now to generate common open discussion.

But just wait until some ideological view is expressed through the Federal Government in an effort to change the laws of any anti-federal state...and I believe you'll be surprised if you hold your current views.

Ideology, it's our economic catalyst of 1860.

As any political science teacher will tell you if you ask, "I've never seen anything like it before, the nation is more polarized now than ever and continuing to become more-so."

Since realizing that I've tried to see if there is a correlation geographically of this polarization, and yes there is.

Everything is set-up, there just needs to be a spark.

Freemason, no offense, but what is with you and the south This is US, and as far as I know we all in the same country And as far as you not allowing me to vote well I will like to see you doing that, If you don't think US is still a democracy then what are you doing in the US, and if you think the south was better off away from the north, I tell you I live in the south and I deal with a lot of people just like you, that still cry for the south giving up to the north.

The last time I read this thread was about Bush asking the church for membership list not a history about the south, and I have enjoyed some of your threads so don�t think is personal just an observation.

And one question, you think I should not be allowed to vote,? Perhaps because I am Spanish and was not born in America? Well I was born American and a fourth generation too.


[edit on 3-7-2004 by marg6043]

Freemason, you should knock it off with the "who should be allowed to vote" crap. What gives you the right to act so damned superior?.

Since realizing that I've tried to see if there is a correlation geographically of this polarization, and yes there is.
Everything is set-up, there just needs to be a spark.

So it seems that you want the country to be split apart by a civil war? Sorry, it isn't going to happen. There is no geographical polarization in this country. There is ideological polarization, fueled by misinformation and accelerated by anti-US fanatics, who would like us to think that they would be less anti-US if Bush were replaced. It is due to the war in Iraq; many have their mind made up and will not change. That is the polarization , not some states rights issue. But it's still not enough to plunge the US into a civil war, as much as you'd like it to.

Tesla

My brother was told by his minister last weekend to call anyone he thought might go see "Farenheit 911" and tell them they will go to hell if they see it.
Un-American.

He called my mother and had her in tears. He harassed her until she hung up crying.

Nice.

It sounds like you should be having a talk with your brother. By reading your post, it was him who made your mother cry. Don't blame Bush, Christians, or your minister. Your brother is responsible for his own actions. If my brother did something like that to my mother, I'd kick his a$$.

:shk:

Originally posted by Pisky
I wonder if he's contacted the Church of Satan to ask for their membership list ?

Why would he want to contact something he already owns