reply to 9baller
The great difficulty with identifying "great city which reigns over the kings of the earth" with Jerusalem is that Jerusalem has never ruled over
the kings of the earth. Surely that verse looks like a clear pointer to Rome (but I don't think in terms of geographical Rome- rather whatever power
in the world occupies thae same kind of place which Rome occupied in John's time).
I agree with you that Jerusalem has never ruled over the kings of the earth, but we must remember that this is a prophecy and that most of Revelation
has to do with the tribulation period. This will be fulfilled during the second half of the tribulation when the Antichrist sets himself up in the
temple of God (2 Thes. 2:4) in Jerusalem (rebuilt temple) and rules from Jerusalem.
reply to 9baller
You point out "great city where their Lord was crucified". All this means is that the phrase in ch11 is pulling in two different directions- "great
city" clearly points to Rome, and "where the Lord was crucified seems to point to Jerusalem".
The solution I suggested in one of my threads is that John is doing what John Bunyan was doing when he offerred the picture of the great city "Vanity
Fair" as representing the world as a whole.
In other words, "great city" is not pointing to any specific city at all, but to the power nexus, potrayed metaphorically as a city, which rules the
earth, killed Christ, and will kill the witnesses.
The verse actually reads "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their
Lord was crucified." There is no reference to Rome in this verse. It makes it clear that the "great city" is "where also their Lord was
reply to 9baller
According to Daniel 9:27 Israel will make a 7 year treaty with the antichrist.
Daniel does not say that. Daniel says just that he "makes covenant with many". All this "peace-treaty with Israel" business is a piece of
imaginative glossing which has become fashionable.
In my opinion, this phrase in Daniel is describing exactly the same course of events that John describes later in this chapter; "the kings give their
authority into his hands". This is about the world-dominating ruler building up a network of client rulers.
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering ..."
-Daniel 9:27. Yes, it says the treaty is with "the many," but it also says that he will "put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering." This is
something that is an obvious reference to Israel. Israel will rebuild their Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and will reinstate sacrifice and offerings,
but the antichrist will break his treaty, put an end to the sacrifices, and surround Jerusalem with his armies (Eze. ch. 38-39, Luke 21:20-24) all at
the midpoint of the 7 year treaty period.
reply to 9baller
Your interpretation of the "seven hills" is the weakest part of your case. You cannot say that Jerusalem has been ruling over the kingdoms you
name. It hasn't.
OK, it is plausible that an Islamic Caliphate might destroy Jerusalem, explaining the second half of the chapter.
But that interpretation also requires that Jerusalem rests on the support of the Islamic Caliphate in the first half of the chapter, helping them to
persecute Christians. In the first half of the chapter the Harlot (Jerusalem?) and the Beast (the Islamic Caliphate?) are working together as partners
and collaborators. Is this plausible?
Jerusalem and the Islamic Caliphate will coexist peaceably during the first three and one-half years of the treaty.
"While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they
will not escape." - 1 Thes. 5:3.
“They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially,
Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’
But there is no peace.
“Were they ashamed because of the abomination they have done?
They were not even ashamed at all;
They did not even know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;
At the time that I punish them,
They shall be cast down,” says the LORD. - Jeremiah 6:14-15
The "abomination they have done" is making a treaty with the antichrist that compromises their belief in the Living God.
Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we have made a pact.
The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,
For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.” -Isaiah 28:14-15
The treaty between the antichrist/his empire and Israel is not mere speculation.
And regarding your speculation that Israel would have to help persecute Christians...
"And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the
great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a
time, from the presence of the serpent.... So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep
the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." Rev. 12:13,14,17
This "persecut(ing) the woman" is the persecution against true Israel when the treaty is broken at the midpoint of the 7 yrs. This woman (Israel)
gave birth to the male child (Jesus); Jesus was born out of the Jewish people. This shows that the persecution of Israel and Christians will only
begin at the midpoint of the tribulation after the treaty is broken. Neither the antichrist or Israel will persecute or be persecuted during the
first half of the seven years. It will be a time of pseudo peace.