The Beaver Wars, also called the Iroquois Wars or the French and Iroquois Wars: Balkanization

Interesting. I'm a member of the Seven Nations of Canada(Oswegatchie Onandoga). I know that my ancestors trapped most of the beaver in the northeast. I know that they contracted with the western nations, to trap beaver for them. I know from our oral traditions that our people have been living in the St. Lawrence valley for thousands of years. The North shore of Lake Ontario, I'm not so sure.

www.wampumchronicles.com...

Interesting. I'm a member of the Seven Nations of Canada(Oswegatchie Onandoga). I know that my ancestors trapped most of the beaver in the northeast. I know that they contracted with the western nations, to trap beaver for them. I know from our oral traditions that our people have been living in the St. Lawrence valley for thousands of years. The North shore of Lake Ontario, I'm not so sure.

www.wampumchronicles.com...

I know from some of the stories our elders told us, the Algonquins were our traditional enemy. That changed in 1802 when the State of New York became our traditional enemy.

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

was that before or after the whites arrived
if after, you just shot your self in the foot.

No...the First Nations were participants in the activities of the day. Did they understand what was coming down the pipes? No. Was it inevitable? I'd say.

Did the Indigenous Peoples eat their enemies? Sometimes...can't say they got that from the Europeans.

Did they get screwed by the whites? Yes, of course. There was a built-in inequality to the trade arrangement due to the technological superiority of the Europeans. Settlement finished the job of raping the continent.

All I'm saying is that the First Nations weren't innocent bystanders. To say they were is to fall victim to 19th century romanticism which ultimately paints a pastoral European ideal on real live people. And is that how they should be defined? By the whites?

I don't think so.

great lakes for mostly canadas, you cant simply point at something that is clearly on someone elses property and claim it as yours. Of course nobody actully owns water or land in that matter.

If fighting over water, simply make a machine that turns salt water into fresh water (it sounds easier then it is)

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

I'm not saying they were innocent JC

thats a straw man arguement
the Denonville link shows the reactionary chain of events
that was your reference hit and sunk

Deganawidah told them what was going to happen thats why he formed the Iroquis confederacy...
He saw the day comin'
The balkanization incidents all over the world where ever the europeans show up shows that it was a common tactic

ceremonial cannibalism ...whats the host at the catholic mass ...?
symbolic cannibalism - the body and the blood of christ...
the practice of taking scalps was started by the white man and if paying for scalps isn't as low or lower then ceremonial cannabolism....


PS
hey Alonzo nice to see from you

reply to post by alonzo730


As I understand it the Mohawks just north of me here came as loyalists with the british after George Washington snuck up and ransaked their villages after the US beat the british late 17 hundreds.
They are now on what was prior to that Wendat (Huron) Rock Clan land
Like that Denonville fellow's sneak attack while under truce on the sachems of the onondaga that led to the massacre that JC claims was an example of pure Indian savagry.


www.saintemarieamongthehurons.on.ca...
here is where I am

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

the practice of taking scalps was started by the white man and if paying for scalps isn't as low or lower then ceremonial cannabolism....

edit on 21-11-2010 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-11-2010 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

Not taking sides here, although I do have more than a passing interest in this. (thanks for the info on Puritans especially)
But I found this:

When the monster is dead, take from the back of its head a piece of skin together with the hair, which is very long. The skin will be of use to you, for it has great power. Wind the hair around your body next to your skin and declare that there is nothing that you cannot do.

From: First People Legends - A Man Chased by The Ancient of Lizards

It would seem the whites were not the originators of the practice.

Again, thank you all for the info and the OP for the thread. Very important information, to my mind, at least.

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

I'm not saying they were innocent JC
thats a straw man arguement
the Denonville link shows the reactionary chain of events
that was your reference hit and sunk

I'm not defending Denonville, just saying that from what I've seen, it was the desecration of the graves that was a dedicated, savage, concerted, native-on-native action. This whole thread was prompted by our discussion over your comment in another one:

"Being decended from the Huron who were all but wiped out by christian European machinations..."abovetopsecret.com...

I find that statement offensive as it removes the culpability of the First Nations in the vanquishing of their own. The Huron (Wendat) were wiped out and/or scattered by their brothers the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee)...and also, as is becoming evident in the archaeological record, by disease.

Yes there were machinations, but that ain't the whole story. You talk of the Huron being wiped out and the Iroquois are spared even a mention when assigning blame? That's revisionism of the worst sort.

When you make a statement like I quoted above, you give the First Nations a free pass on their actions. I call shenanigans on that one. Like I said, Nazis hung because 'they were only following orders'. By all accounts, the 5 Nations were rather more motivated. That's my point, and the whole of it

Oh, points awarded for the following remark:
"ceremonial cannibalism ...whats the host at the catholic mass ...?
symbolic cannibalism - the body and the blood of christ... "

I laughed out load...but there is a little more commitment expressed in actually chowing down on a human, right?

The tribes of my grandmother, algonquin and abanaki, chose the wrong indians and the wrong white men. We were against the Iroquis, because they had to have it their way. You had to speak their language, and be under their laws, to be in their confederacy. (The same confederacy the americans took to make their articles of the confederacy that morphed into the u.s. constitution.) We had our own confederacy.
We chose the French because they treated us half decent, unlike the british who were and probably are still about the most prejudice people on earth.
Yes, whites told every lie in the book, to get their way, and swore on the holy name of jesus, that they would obey their promises, a god whose tenets they only followed when it looked like it would make them money, but yet, forced us 'heathens' to embrace him with all our souls, at the penalty, sometimes, of death. I hope someone, somewhere, understands the laws of karma. 'What ye reap, so shall ye sow'
Also, that mercury in the beaver hats, often made people crazy, which gives away to the 'mad hatter' story of Alice in Wonderland fame.

reply to post by Dogdish


counting coup, yes of course..
I stand corrected on that detail I should have been more clear
the whites initiated paying for scalps
which is again whites promoting the balkanizing inter tribal slaughter
thanks though, for bringing that up for clarification because i did miss state that detail
star for you
thanx

www.mohicanpress.com...

I have read though Conquistedores in south america did invent wearing vaginas as hat bands on their helmets though...true or not I don't know they don't bragg about it now if they did.
even woorse

reply to post by roadtoad



Hi RT
I wonder how much of that mercury was absorbed through the skin of the wearers?
over time and through the sweat and the rain...
thanks for the first person account of the oral history
hard to reference but enlightening and welcomed here.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


the french promised to protect the Huron
they did not
they only wiped out the huron because the guns they had upset the balance.
the guns were given to the iroquis so they could defeat the huron and take over their control of the transportation and collection of furs for sale to the french....
look at Denonvilles taking of the sachems the desision making warriors of the tribe if that wasn't a machination then I am throwing my dictionary out

Like i said, if the iroquis woulda coulda wiped out the huron prior to the whites giving them guns....
but they didn't
thats proof right there
oh yeah then there are things like the smal pox blankets...

I'm kinda offended that you're offended but can't back up your arguement.
or do you just wanna be offended?
I answered ypu points with valid arguements
if that offends you why are you on a forum?
like the bit a bout claiming I called you an " apologist." show me wear I called you as an "apologist" again?
I didn't so...

and bringing up another thread in the manner you did there is not considered good etiquet either I am told




so there if the truth is offending you
oh well

Originally posted by Danbones
I'm kinda offended that you're offended but can't back up your arguement.
or do you just wanna be offended?

I'd have to say that you and I are talking at each other and having two different conversations. I've said my bit, I stand by what I say, and that's pretty much the end of our chat. Happy Trails.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Sure, JC have a nice day.
back to the OP.
the beaver wars as an example of the commonly used tactic of balkanization

Did I mention the American civil war on the list of Balkanizations?
This thread as I said in the OP is about the Beaver Wars as an example of Ballkanization, and how it relates to todays situation...The civil war was one of the biggest blows to the constitution that was drawn from the constitution of the Iroquis. That's when the states rights were basically taken away, and then of course, after Lincoln began minting green banks he was bumped off....
So.... there are many examples of the tactic and who is employing it, and who they are employing it on....


on a side note:
I just heard in a radio interview on " Erskin over night":
The Dutch East India company mentioned earlier as the arming force behind the Iroquis went to the British crown and had themselves exempted from the tea tax that figured so much in starting the American Revolution...
www.gcnlive.com...
now why woulld the crown exempt them like that?

Good post ..S&F ...The true enemy has a mo that shows up at times ..I noticed in different stories how the enemy were given specific orders not to touch so and so ..The second world war has this theme in it .I suspect that the enemy always takes up key positions . The Jesuits are a good example of this ...In the quest to conquer it seems strange that England and France were at war .I think both were being used by Rome . They didn't know which would be the victor but wanted to take advantage on all fronts .. I always found it strange that Saint Pierre et Miquelon was allowed to stay as a French Colony . You would have thought they would secure that place first . And they did but there were times back and forth of who was claiming it .That Treaty of Paris seems strange...Well thanks for the post it is much appreciated ...peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1


MO
Thanks, that is the correct term, and thanks for bring it up
This is a crime we are investigating, so your terminology fits well IMHO.
Sure the brits and french were constantly at war, but we have seen that is how the common power running the hegelian dialectic gets what it wants and keeps the competition opposition from gaining strength...
one big happy royal family...

Kinda like the pope dividing the new world up between the Spanish and the Portuguese

I think the Pope and the vatican banks must have been involved because man...you should see the churches here...the :Martyers' shrine", "St Annes (Sat ans') Church" looks like a giant bat hovering over my home town
and DEGANAWIDAH was rumoured to be a virgin birth...
The jesuits came all this way and had the first mass in upper Canada here, and they but this huge thing with a cross and a plaque on it, right where his hut probably was...in a place that makes no sense for the edifice, untill one considers that this placing of christian sites on other people holy sites is again a common MO

reply to post by Danbones


S&F - absolutely!

Sorry - in a hurry and have to hit and run, so didn't scan more than 1/2 of first page. Will be back but in the meantime ...

Always mistrusted this anti-big government campaign - seemed too much divide-and-conquer - but never heard of "Balkanization" before. THANK YOU.

- sofi

reply to post by soficrow


Thanks Soficrow
there have been some exellent contributions to the thread,
I hope you find them interesting