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The Beaver Wars, also called the Iroquois Wars or the French and Iroquois Wars: Balkanization

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posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Oh, but they try, they really do:


Following a firestorm of protest, a planned re-enactment of the 1759 defeat of French forces on Quebec City's Plains of Abraham has been cancelled.

The National Battlefields Commission, the federal agency that helps to preserve the Plains, made the announcement Tuesday while explaining revisions to the programming surrounding the 250th anniversary.

The decision comes after Quebec sovereigntists denounced the planned celebrations as an insulting reminder of their ancestors' defeat 250 years ago. Many threatened to protest the events.

www.ctv.ca...


Out of sight, out of mind.




posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 05:50 PM
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I said "peacefully everafter" in my best Homer Voice



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 

hey JC
you make some well reasoned arguements



The seeds of the French and Indian War were sown from the time of the first exploration and settlement of North America by Europe's two greatest powers. The French came to trade with the natives and exploit the natural resources of the continent. The English came to settle and build colonies that would trade with the mother country....
...When the English finally crossed the mountains and found the French already building forts and trading posts along the Ohio River valley the conflict was inevitable.

www.fortedwards.org...

here is a list of anglo french wars
britishbattles.homestead.com...
They were at war before, during, and after the time period we are examining.
they brought war with them along with disease and firearms.

I'd like to see some evidence of wholesale inter tribal slaughter of the inter Indian wars of which you speak from before the arrival of the europeans,

The indians remember back along way and they don't see it the way you do.
There was the same eb and flow of civilizations like the mound builders but that is normal everywhere.Indians died of many things beside warfare...the principle fear of the Huron before the europeans was winter starvation not the other Indians...
In winter the season of starvation in this area war was almost imposible because of the snow ice and weather and the difficulty of travel there was little war fare at those times



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by BobAthome
 


I thought so.


I doubt there was any peace at all from the first instance of contact between the two colonies. The building of roads only complicated things and is plain to every visitor to Quebec.

Hint: learn French for things like 'bridge', 'stop', 'yeild' because each roadsign is in French only. Getting lost in Quebec city is a treat.



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 





PT is not part of my discussion, but I'll have to consider what you're said. I think our only point of disagreement is in your larger-scale conspiratorial vision of the era. I'm still working on the basis that they were putting it together as they went along...that there was no grand scheme outside of getting as much of the pot as they could, while they could. Recall...they couldn't even figure out how North America was represented in the Bible...let alone how 'les sauvages' factored into it.


Of course there was a grand scheme of things, and it was all about the Romanization of the new world. Rome is a system of commerce, that simply enslaves people to religious concepts.

It simply sets different corporate entities it funds against one another in competition, to keep Romanizing the world and that's exactly what happened.

Trust me it enjoys the anally fixated who can only see minute pieces of the picture, get swallowed by the allure of national pride, and religious identities, but the truth is when you follow the money trail it all goes back to the same place.

If you actually spend some time following all the corporate trails, the front companies, and actually have the ability to see things on a grand scale, the larger picture, the managing the world like it's a terranium project, you might see it too.

Rome is the architecht of the Universe, the ultimate Master of deception, the driving force behind all these things.

It's just Hegelian concepts that they are using. Once you understand that, you can start to see things more clearly.

Hey it works better when you water it down, doesn't it?



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by Danbones
I'd like to see some evidence of wholesale inter tribal slaughter of the inter Indian wars of which you speak from before the arrival of the europeans,


Pretty well every Iroquoian village site I've seen had palisades around it and was built upon a defensible position.



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:07 PM
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JC
a challenge:
If one examines Cecil Rhodes in Africa
he is famous for playing all the tribes against each other
and using that to secure the control of the whole area
and
It is exactly the same time honored tactic
the british used it EVERYWHERE
So there is evidence that it was a standard tactic, there are MANY more

I am requesting similar examples from you regarding evidence of inter tribal warfare where it has caused the extinction of a people in North America with out European interference and influence.



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:10 PM
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All that typing about Indians and firearms, The Indians had bows and arrows? lances? stone knives? surely the Indians killed other Indians long before muskets became available? Didn't the Indians 'count coup' at one time? rather than actually killing the the other guy?



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Found a fairly accurate but easy to read assessment of the pre-colonial situation in the area:


The northern nations were all clustered about the great lakes; the southern bands held the fertile valleys bordering the head-waters of the rivers which flowed from the Allegheny mountains. The languages of all these tribes showed a close affinity. There can be no doubt that their ancestors formed one body, and, indeed, dwelt at one time (as has been well said of the ancestors of the Indo-European populations), under one roof.

There was a Huron-Iroquois "family-pair," from which all these tribes were descended. In what part of the world this ancestral household resided is a question which admits of no reply, except from the me-rest conjecture. But the evidence of language, so far as it has yet been examined, seems to show that the Huron clans were the older members of the group; and the clear and positive traditions of all the surviving tribes, Hurons, Iroquois and Tuscaroras, point. to the lower St. Lawrence as the earliest known abode of their stock.

Here the first explorer, Cartier, found Indians of this stock at Hochelaga and Stadaconé, now the sites of Montreal and Quebec. Centuries before his time, according to the native tradition, the ancestors of the Huron-Iroquois family had dwelt in this locality, or still further east and nearer to the river's mouth.

As their numbers increased, dissensions arose. The hive swarmed, and band after band moved off to the west and south.

As they spread, they encountered people of other stocks, with whom they had frequent wars. Their most constant and most dreaded enemies were the tribes of the Algonkin family, a fierce and restless people, of northern origin, who everywhere surrounded them. At one period, however, if the concurrent traditions of both Iroquois and Algonkins can be believed, these contending races for a time stayed their strife, and united their forces in an alliance against a common and formidable foe.

This foe was the nation, or perhaps the confederacy, of the Alligewi or Talligewi, the semi-civilized "Mound-builders" of the Ohio Valley, who have left their name to the Allegheny river and mountains, and whose vast earthworks are still, after half-a-century of study, the perplexity of archaeologists.

A desperate warfare ensued, which lasted about a hundred years, and ended in the complete overthrow and destruction, or expulsion, of the Alligewi. The survivors of the conquered people fled southward, and are supposed to have mingled with the tribes which occupied the region extending from the Gulf of Mexico northward to the Tennessee river and the southern spurs of the Alleghenies.

www.firstpeople.us...


So, hell yes... there were wars before the Europeans landed. There were tribal wars ALL OVER the America's, from the southern end of S America to the tundra's of Canada's northlands.

It's the 'human' way of resolving 'issues'.




posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by Danbones
 


Youve never been too Ireland during the troubles which im sad to say seem to be acting up again, You don't have to look very far for that sort of thing,,Intertribal warfare aint new ,,,, don't u have a motherinlaw? just kidding ,, luv ya lol



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Pretty well every Iroquoian village site I've seen had palisades around it and was built upon a defensible position.


Bears wolves maurauders raids THEFT ( most ops were about STEALING not killing)
The Iroquis fought amongst themselves
Deganawidah united them in these villages TO PREVENT war several hundred years before the french and British et al arrived. he INVENTED the Long house and the constitution that led to the constitution of the united the STATES and for the sane reason

Would the foundiing fathers have copied a system that didn't work?
The iroquis are still sovereign to this day.And the whites can't push them to far off that either as we have seen.

this is a big part of the topic of this thread
that constitution is called THE PATH OF PEACE
they buried their weapons when they adopted it.
thats Iroquis history
Thats why the Iroqois were so strong when the whites arrived
which indicates they weren't killing them selves off.
The huron were doing great to up till the day the Jesuits arrived.
If Your theory was correct I don't think that would be true.

Like killing all the buffalo because they couldn't beat the Sioux so they starved them and killed the women and children which the INDIANS DID NOT DO as you saw when we discussed mourning wars
the Indian practice was assimilation NOT DESTRUCTION

edit on 20-11-2010 by Danbones because: edit for clarity and coherence i hope



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by masqua
So, hell yes... there were wars before the Europeans landed. There were tribal wars ALL OVER the America's, from the southern end of S America to the tundra's of Canada's northlands.
It's the 'human' way of resolving 'issues'.


And it's unfortunately very human to exploit it as well. So here it is, left unresolved even today.
So much money going out under 'Indian Affairs', and so little change.
I hope this is the generation that figures it out...
Leadership
Health
Education



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by BobAthome
 


I am part Irish
and I hear ya Bob...the troubles break my heart
cause
well thats the point of this thread.
they are being PLAYED again.

to what extent did the Irish fight amoungst themselves before the two christianities arrived I wonder?
other than at the pub?

edit on 20-11-2010 by Danbones because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by Danbones
the Indian practice was assimilation NOT DESTRUCTION


Well, they sure had a good time with Denonville, not only killing everyone they could and destroying their food stores...it was the First Nations that tagged along who desecrated and robbed the graves in order to lay a whuppin' on the departed as well...extending their reach into the 'Happy Hunting Grounds' as it were.

Just sayin'...can't lay it all at the feet of the whites. The palisades were not just for bears and wolves and thieves, oh my!



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 

was that before or after the whites arrived
if after, you just shot your self in the foot.

like the whites who invented scalping and paid for the scalps
which also is a dead nail in your point

The iroquis BURIED THEIR WEAPONS that is a huge part of the union created by Deganiwidah
again nail in point

You don't know anything about bears do you.
they want eat your lunch you have to shoot them to stop them
had to do three last summer.right on the front steps


These 50 chiefs constituted the entire decision-making strata of the Iroquois. They had been lulled into meeting under a flag of truce. Denonville seized, chained, and shipped the 50 Iroquois chiefs to Marseilles, France, to be used as galley slaves. He then ravaged the land of the Seneca. Before he returned to New France

en.wikipedia.org...
umm
If the European Denonville hadn't been there starting (RAVAGING) the action it never would have happened.
which appears to be another hole in your arguement
denonville was built after this no wonder the indians were pissed
thats why they laid the whup ass down


edit on 20-11-2010 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-11-2010 by Danbones because: to add the bit about Denonville

edit on 20-11-2010 by Danbones because: forgot link

edit on 20-11-2010 by Danbones because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Danbones
the Indian practice was assimilation NOT DESTRUCTION


Well, they sure had a good time with Denonville, not only killing everyone they could and destroying their food stores...it was the First Nations that tagged along who desecrated and robbed the graves in order to lay a whuppin' on the departed as well...extending their reach into the 'Happy Hunting Grounds' as it were.

Just sayin'...can't lay it all at the feet of the whites. The palisades were not just for bears and wolves and thieves, oh my!


Actually, yeah, technically you can, because had there been no Christian invasion, nothing would have happened as a result of the Native Americans had the Christians stayed in Europe.

I don't really care how the head hunters in Borneo live, since, I don't live there.

The smart strategy for the Natives would have just been to meet the ships at shore, and never let the Christians gain a toe hold. They made the mistake of trusting the Christians.

Had the Natives been shipping in 1,000 then 10,000, then 100,000 Pacific Islanders or Indian Indians to keep countering the numbers it would have been a much different and far more even playing field.

The only mistakes the Indians made was trusting the Christians to abide by their promises, and failing to understand what the Christian threat really represented for seeing it out of context in their native lands, instead of in context in the Christian's native lands.

Your argument is basically the same one where ever Christian Armies violently go, look these savage insurgent Iraqis are attacking us for taking over their country, see, see, they are animals!

You funny!



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 06:55 PM
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Deganawidah warned the iroquis the white man was coming
he created their government FOR THAT REASON
not because of other indians
He told the Iroquis that the whites would arrive.


Deganawidah, the prophet whose vision of peace led to the establishment of the Iroquois Confederacy and the ending of centuries of strife between the Mohawk, Onondaga, Seneca, Oneida, and Cayuga Nations, was born at an unknown date, most likely between 1400 and 1600 C.E., among the Huron people

www.encyclopedia.com...

He actually lived in the 12th century by Indian reckoning officialdom has a hard time with that
but hey
here is where things are IMHO, going to get meaty and interesting because DEGANAWIDAH is the MAN

another nail for JC
centuries of warfare
with out wiping themselves out
and prior to the whites coming
centuries of peace.
edit on 20-11-2010 by Danbones because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 08:23 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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Way off subject....but we have a real beaver that just moved into our pond. Seriously, couldn't figure out what it was, but it jumped into the pond today and when it got out of the water I saw it's tail. We named it Justin. Get it?? Justin Beaver.
I been watching it off and all all day.



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