When you die do you think you can actually experience the destruction of your consciousness/ego?

reply to post by Maddogkull


I think you may enjoy this article.

Writing in the October issue of the Journal of Palliative Medicine, the doctors theorize that the brain surges may be tied to widely reported near-death experiences which typically involve spiritual or religious attributes.

"A study of seven terminally ill patients found identical surges in brain activity moments before death, providing what may be physiological evidence of "out of body" experiences reported by people who survive near-death ordeals.

source


Interesting perspective , the follow up studies should be enlightening.

Funny you should post that article, I have a thread just similar to that, where Stuart Hameroff was talking about the exact same thing. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for the article Umbra; as always

I'm thinking that because you'll lose your ability to remember things, you might experience the destruction of your ego/consciousness upon death, you won't remember it, so it won't matter if you do or not.

I've lost consciousness a number of times, and it creates gaps in your memory, but because I've woken up alive later, I've at least been able to remember before and after the gap, which allows me to define the gap. When I die, there won't be any memory on either side of the gap. So there won't be anything to define it.

reply to post by Blue Shift


But see NDEs and other phenomenon alike you will realise that when approaching death (to certain individuals) they have a clear vivid memory. Nothing like getting knocked out which leaves memory gaps. I am saying that if you have a vivid NDE (and if NDE are just in the brain) couldn’t you experience the dissolution of your soul? Or maybe Semi- Experience. Like another poster said on here (which was a very good analogy) “Kinda like closing up a building at night, locking door after door after door and then finally turning off the lights.” One bit by bit some of our brain would die, until death. At that very second before you die, would you experience oblivion? Of course you cannot recall oblivion if there is nothing after death, but would it be possible to be a second from death and recall that last second before you go into oblivion?

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by Blue Shift

 

But see NDEs and other phenomenon alike you will realise that when approaching death (to certain individuals) they have a clear vivid memory.

Yeah, but the difference is that these people eventually woke up to tell about it. A lot of what they were experiencing may have been residual brain activity at levels so low they can't really be detected, so we don't know for sure if they were ever completely dead. I don't know of anyone who has been cold and really dead for, say, a week, waking up and telling people that they had memories of their death. And obviously, nobody dead forever has done that.

I still think it all has to do with memory. The key would be to find out if memory can be stored somewhere other than a living brain. Can it be part of a matrix that extends outside the physical dimensions of the brain? That's the question. If so, a person can potentially die and still retain a memory of the process.

There have been NDE's were people have died and came back to life. I think the Longest is 72 hours. Of course doctors say that he wasn’t really dead, and that he was just nearly dead. But I prefer to listen to the dead guy with the story instead of some doctors who think they know everything.

Originally posted by Majestic23
It seems timespace is the first thing to go, some theorise that from the subjects perspective time "doubles" into infinity.

Then, being dropped right into death one might have a tough, trippy time with instant loss of ego as in who am I? I know I was a person but I cant remember the name. Maybe with a peaceful death the ego dies also in comfort and slips away slowly.

And then I dont know what because I cant comprehend anything much beyond that point. It seems one has a profound life debriefing told directly or by way of visions (purgatory, lower dimensions) and then the soul moves on.

It makes sense that one is somewhere outside their timeloop in this state and can view life as though it were a dvd. Also there is this inclusion of having multiple minds ( which is hard to grasp from an earthbound incarnation).

Well the afterlife is described often in those terms, as a 'photograph" of sort, with past, present and future occuring simultaneously.

Its said in the Jewish tradition that an entire mans lifetime is judged in 12 months in the human world after his death. Meaning in 'his' world, each of his negative actions throughout his entire lifetime are recompensed in a period of no more than 1 solar year. So, theres definitely time, its just much different from what we experience in this world.

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal

Originally posted by dontreally
This is an amazing, Jewish depiction of a NDE.

lazerbrody.typepad.com...

Thanks for the link. I love seeing new accounts of NDE's. Its funny how Jewish people have Jewish themed NDE's and Christians have Christian themed NDE's. Leads to some big questions.

Could we actually have the power to create our ideal of the afterlife while were alive? or does the after life cater for all faiths by showing you exactly what you'd expect to see?

What we experience after we die is a reality with its own inner laws and dynamics.

So the energies themselves are purely abstract. For us to interact with them they have to "cloth" themselves in the imagery that the soul theyre relating with will recognize. So, a Hindu will experience his afterlife in the terms of Hinduism, a Christian Christianity, and a Muslim in the terms of Islam. Each person experiences his after life according to the culture he was born into. So, there realy is an infinite amount of possible scenarios.

From what ive seen, and ive seen a few movies on NDE, this mans was closest to what it actually is.

Everyone describes a white light, and than darkness. But few get past that threshold and meet eye to eye with that inevitable reality, where the 'angel of death' or the manifestation of ones negative and evil actions, speech and thought (3 garments of expression) condemns the soul for its evil deeds while alive. For a Jew this is a little different. The Jewish soul is judged by Torah, and G-d has decreed that all Jews have to honor each of the laws of the Torah. In addition to that, he experienced this in the most highly charged spiritual location on the planet, the land of Israel. But the rest of us arent penalized for 'not observing Shabbat" or not wearing a kipa. What were punished for and what all human beings are punished for are any actions that affirmed either unity, or plurality. This has a massive possibility of expressions,. As something as little as indulging or priding yourself in your appearance, to really evil things like gossip, insults, slander, theft, murder etc... Each one has its appropriate response in the next world that will seek to reveal its nature to he who created it. This is measure for measure. This is divine justice in the most clearest of senses.

edit on 5-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

I wonder how athiests or those who refuse to believe theres an afterlife will experience it? Will they still be judged despite believing thats theres no one there to judge them, or will there be nothing but darkness and the eternal feeling that your there in that darkness, yet you can never escape. A kind of hell really.

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal

Originally posted by dontreally
This is an amazing, Jewish depiction of a NDE.

lazerbrody.typepad.com...

Thanks for the link. I love seeing new accounts of NDE's. Its funny how Jewish people have Jewish themed NDE's and Christians have Christian themed NDE's. Leads to some big questions.

Could we actually have the power to create our ideal of the afterlife while were alive? or does the after life cater for all faiths by showing you exactly what you'd expect to see?

What we experience after we die is a reality with its own inner laws and dynamics.

So the energies themselves are purely abstract. For us to interact with them they have to "cloth" themselves in the imagery that the soul theyre relating with will recognize. So, a Hindu will experience his afterlife in the terms of Hinduism, a Christian Christianity, and a Muslim in the terms of Islam. Each person experiences his after life according to the culture he was born into. So, there realy is an infinite amount of possible scenarios.

From what ive seen, and ive seen a few movies on NDE, this mans was closest to what it actually is.

Everyone describes a white light, and than darkness. But few get past that threshold and meet eye to eye with that inevitable reality, where the 'angel of death' or the manifestation of ones negative and evil actions, speech and thought (3 garments of expression) condemns the soul for its evil deeds while alive. For a Jew this is a little different. The Jewish soul is judged by Torah, and G-d has decreed that all Jews have to honor each of the laws of the Torah. In addition to that, he experienced this in the most highly charged spiritual location on the planet, the land of Israel. But the rest of us arent penalized for 'not observing Shabbat" or not wearing a kipa. What were punished for and what all human beings are punished for are any actions that affirmed either unity, or plurality. This has a massive possibility of expressions,. As something as little as indulging or priding yourself in your appearance, to really evil things like gossip, insults, slander, theft, murder etc... Each one has its appropriate response in the next world that will seek to reveal its nature to he who created it. This is measure for measure. This is divine justice in the most clearest of senses.

edit on 5-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

I wonder how athiests or those who refuse to believe theres an afterlife will experience it? Will they still be judged despite believing thats theres no one there to judge them, or will there be nothing but darkness and the eternal feeling that your there in that darkness, yet you can never escape. A kind of hell really.

All thoughts, emotions are spiritual entities. So any atheist that believed positively that there wasnt a G-d or an aftertlife will probably have to experience the form of his creation until its completely extirpated from his consciousness.

I dont know how that would manfiest. I do know that the Kabbalists describe a silence and void immideately following the white light after one dies. This 'void' tests the trust of the soul. If one cultivated faith, discipline and constructive character traits, he'll pass through it. The atheist will probably be stuck or in 'limbo' in this inteminnable slience until the force which he created while alive, the firm belief that there was nothing after life exhausts itsself of its numinosity. Its a measure for measure response.

Also, this void doesnt mean the complete extinction of consciousness. Its really hartd to describe since ive never experienced it and those who do find it impossible to put into words. Its as if nothing exists, yet youre aware of this nothingness. Can be a very anxious period for the soul.

The man in that NDE experience video describes two classes of angels. One to the left and one to the right. The ones to the left hadnt yet qualified to be 'judged' by their inner forms, or the collective spirit called the 'angel of death' or Satan, which cleanses the soul to enter Olam HaBa (heaven). This 'silence' and nothingness is probably the most painful and horrifying experience one could possibly imagine. And the fact that it continues without possibility for respose, because the person believed so ardently, with such passion and energy in this concept, of a 'nothingness' after life, he's requitted measure for measure. That creation of his will have to burn out before he even enters 'hell' to be judged.

reply to post by dontreally


Now i can understand why people say they believe in God and the afterlife, "just in case". That sounds like the wrong reason to believe but at least it may save them from this conciouse void.

You can actualy reach a void like this through meditation. Your conciousness is aware of an infinite space, thats completly empty. You then have to fill this void with your conciousness. Ive never reached this level yet, but it sounds like a profound experience. To me it would remind you of your insignificance in the scheme of the vast universe, yet remind you that your conciousness is far more powerful than your possition would indicate.

Very deep stuff, filled with a miriade of methaphors and symbols. I cant wait to reach it personaly. Once i do, i think i might just get a sense of what darkness and emptyness, yet your still aware your their actualy means.

turn you mind in the opposite direction of the world and you will immediately see the true happiness of your soul. This is where you go when you die.

-Consolation of Philosophy

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal
reply to post by dontreally

 

Now i can understand why people say they believe in God and the afterlife, "just in case". That sounds like the wrong reason to believe but at least it may save them from this conciouse void.

You can actualy reach a void like this through meditation. Your conciousness is aware of an infinite space, thats completly empty. You then have to fill this void with your conciousness. Ive never reached this level yet, but it sounds like a profound experience. To me it would remind you of your insignificance in the scheme of the vast universe, yet remind you that your conciousness is far more powerful than your possition would indicate.

Very deep stuff, filled with a miriade of methaphors and symbols. I cant wait to reach it personaly. Once i do, i think i might just get a sense of what darkness and emptyness, yet your still aware your their actualy means.

If youre just practicing with meditation it will takes years, if not in this lifetime, to experience a state as profound as the proverbial void of nothingness.

In Rabbinic literature, theres a very great parable describing the 4 types of people who 'enter PaRDeS' (source of english paradise) which in Hebrew means orchard. These 4 souls are archetypal in nature, each exhibited by a famous sage of the Talmud. The first, Ben Azzai, went in and died. The second, Ben Zoma, went in and got stricken, the third, Asher, went in and left a heretic, and the last, Rabbi Akiva, went in peace and left in peace.

Theres no need to rush into the spiritual experience. Ben Azzai and Asher represent two different type of people.The former after experiencing this highest world of nothingness no longer desires to come back to this world. It is utterly pointless and meaningless to him so hed prefer to die. What happens is his consciousness becomes so absorbed in this unity with the creator that his soul leaves physicality - his body, and he dies. Asher is another type of person, epitomized by gnostics, pagans etc. These people confuse the vision of this experience as there being another power which controls the world. This is the root of dualism - of reality depending on the fluctuations and interplay between good and evil, Yin and Yang (etc). The one that is very relevant to a person like you or myself, is Ben Zoma. He went in and got stricken. Meaning? He went insane. The experience was too confusing for his mind to integrate and therefore lost all touch with reality. He completely went insane.

Whats amazing is that Ben Zoma is known in the Talmud for his darshening, his 'dialectical' explanations of very deep concepts. He was a very logical thinker. Because he hadnt properly cleansed himself he entered pardes with an attitude too fixed on logic, and therefore his mind became garbled when he experienced the void.

So. its a very scary thing. I have never done that. I once a long while back engaged in some kundalini exercises (back when i was into theosophy) and i got burned very bad. In mystical lingo, i got "bit by the snake". I couldnt sleep for 3 weeks and i literally thought i was going to lose my mind. By the grace and kindness of G-d i overcame it and restored myself, and actually in the long run was a sort of catharis, the breakdown of the old structure to make room for the new one. Its painful. But, it had a very positive effect. Ive had this twice in my life, and both times its had a profound effect in altering my consciousness. But, i want to be humble and i want to live simply. I dont want to obsess over spiritual knowledge or 'mystical powers' as i used to. That stuff is egotistical. If it comes later on, let it come. All men should first undergo decades of humbling and spiritual growth before he participates in adept spiritual practices that transforms his psyche.

Asher was misled because he was lacking humility. Because he lacked humility, a little hole widened and eventually burst open because he meddled with a reality whose power was too enormous for his ego to assimilate in a positive way.. It'll either kill the person if he goes too far, drive the person insane if he cant handle its strength, or inflate the ego of the one not spiritually mature enough to receive it. Only Rabbi Akiba entered and left in peace. In Torah language, Rabbi Akiba was a convert. He was born a gentile and lived a very difficult life. Nothing came easy to him. But it was this very struggle in life which built the most sincere and heartfelt connection with his source. Thats why, later on in his life when he was much older, when he entered the pardes, he left in peace. He was a man full of humility. He didnt go in expecting to understand. Or expecting not to return, and he definitely had humility. He went in with simple faith and knowledge that whatever happens, im going to return and cling to G-ds Torah and perform his mitzvot(good deeds) in this world. He already had knowledge before he went in.

Too often mystics brag about this mystical experience. "once you experience it youre a different person". They know something im sure, buts not something to go around explaining to people. It shouldnt even be mentioned, at all. Only the most spiritually evolved should pursue this and only for the sake of 'tasting of true divinity' but not staying, and becoming a hermit, or returning with an egotistical message. But faith. Simple faith.

This is why i was attracted to Judaism. I already had a few years of gnosticism and Theosophy and frankly i eventually became sickened by the egotism and pretention of it all. In addition to that, it was all so arbitrary and trying to come off as a science that i just stepped back and said, this doesnt feel like spirituality. Science and spirituality are fine, but to mingle them in a way where your appreciation of divinity becomes some 'experiment', than, its not honest or sincere. Its about glory and discovery and thats what western civilization is about. This constant lust and obssession with adventure, and not simplicity and faith. Judaism attracted me in its simplicity. Kabbalah being Judaisms genuine inner dimension convinced me of something very special about Judaism. After, when i learned Hebrew and began studying at a deeper level, i became even more amazed and convinced of its divinity, of it being from an entirely different plane of existence (Kabbalah, the Torah and Hebrew language, that is)

Anyways, got off topic. Ego dissolves at death, but not the soul or consciousness of self. Consciousness of a particular ego, with some individuality does dissolve. although one is sure and knows when he dies that he did a certain action while alive when hes either punished or rewarded for it. The understanding of it is obviously different than in this world. But i do know some degree of self exists. Only the ultra pious completely merge with G-d and dissolve all sensation of individuality.

As a side note. The ancient pagans and modern 'mystics' talk of a beriatic or intellectual body which the soul can invest itself in after the death of its physical body. This perpetuates the ego after death and hence, the megalomania so many mystics have. They think their gods.

reply to post by Maddogkull


If you experience the dissolution of your consciousness, doesn't that mean it is apart from yourself, something you observe?

Originally posted by onequestion
reply to post by Maddogkull

 

If you experience the dissolution of your consciousness, doesn't that mean it is apart from yourself, something you observe?

Yes, he worded his query in a very illogical way.

to notice the destruction of ego is possble, since all thats needed is consciousness. But to experience the destruction of consciousness is an oxymoron. Thats like trying to skip around with no legs or eat without a head, sing without a voice box or think without a brain.

reply to post by dontreally


Well im not Jewish, but thanks for your reply.

I always like to hear, other faiths ideas on similar practices. Im not sure whether my desire to experience this state of conciousness is bred from curiosity or just so i can say that ive experienced it, so Egotistical reasons. This is something i'll definatley have to think long and hard about.

Ive began practicing Therevada buddhist meditation and contemplation techniques to gain better control over mind and a better understanding of myself and the world around me. Im only on the focusing my mind to a single point level or the first Jhana as its called. This experience of limitless space comes in around the third or fourth Jhana so ive got years before i reach anywhere near that level. So hopefully i'll be a lot wiser and less hindered by my Ego by then. I have heard of those who have died while doing this so theres definate correlations between this and Judaism, although ive never heard it mentioned, as to why these monks may have died in the process. So you've enlightened me a bit there.

Inner peice and coping with sufferance has always been my main aim. As long as i can get that out of my efforts i'll be happy with that. If i do feel ready to take this step, i'll be sure im doing it for the right reasons first. Ive got a long way to go, but im looking forward to the journey.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
I think I know were your getting at Antar, Are you saying our consciousness just fades away? I am saying could you experience that exact second you slip into oblivion? (if there is no afterlife) It is much more complicated to me then a light switch; in my opinion

edit on 5-11-2010 by Maddogkull because: (no reason given)

I for one cant say how your consciousness feels when you "die" because obviously i am writing this...

But i can tell you this from my small experiences.
At one point in my life i was able to get into very deep meditations. Able to hold my conscious and sub-conscious. Say what you will, but it's a very bizarre and at the same time peaceful feeling. Just being...hearing sounds...but not actually thinking anything about it...having a though a SINGLE thought...and letting it pass. I cant put into words what it is like exactly, its something you must experience for yourself.
Anyhow the point of all this is, at night i usually go into a "meditative sleep". And in my experience, from actually holding my consciousness and being mindful...I am actually able to allow my body fall into a deep slumber. Induce sleep paralysis. At this moment my body is completely "asleep" where my mind is in the "middle point." At this junction i can continue to meditate and let my mind be blank, while observing it at the same time (sounds like an oxymoron cause it is, but if you have had deep meditation you would understand), OR...i can allow my mind to fall asleep.
After im tired of meditation and just want to sleep i literally can observe my mind...It somewhat feels as if im in a blank black room (in my mind) with just a little bit of lights floating around. Kinda like there is static electricity all over the room. At this point i am able to say "hmm well i can fall asleep now if i want". When im ready to i literally just say "ok time to sleep", and instantly i fall asleep.

Im not sure if its along the lines your asking...but i can say along the lines of waking consciousness and sub-consciousness...i am able to realize and let get of it when i am in a very deep meditative state.

I suggest reading "The Tibetan Book of the Dead".

I also heard many yogi's say that if you are able to observe that you are dieing, that you are dead, and HOLD ONTO your consciousness....that you will "move on".

Originally posted by dontreally

Originally posted by Maddogkull
When you die, do you think you can actually experience the oblivion of your self/soul/ego/consciousness? Of course we never know until we die, but for the sake of discussion what do you guys think of this. If there is no afterlife, would it be possible to actually "experience" slipping into nothingness? Or would you be unconscious in the act? From reading NDE’s; Even though they might be a hallucination, there is no doubt in my mind they are 100% real (maybe not paranormal but definitely a physical phenomenon) If people have vivid NDE’s, then wouldn’t it be comprehendible to digest that we could actually experience the oblivion of your soul? What do you think ATS?

This is of course some kind of mental gymnastics, I hope everyone on here will discuss what they think on this matter.

edit on 4-11-2010 by Maddogkull because: (no reason given)

Well theres a theoretical knowledge of what goes on, and theres similarity between all traditions.

In Judaism/kabbalah its taught that following death the soul splits asunder. Sound fun? Different aspects of us break away. Our lowest aspect, our Nefesh, is rooted to the body. This is where one suffers in complete agony over the sins he committed against his true self, his soul. How exactly this happens is hard to say, its different for everyone. But, theres a definite experience by the conscious mind of every specific action it committed.

Theres also a specific process. First ones experiences a white light upon death, this 'taste' brings pleasure to the soul (if it died in a peaceful way), but this eventually passes and then darkness and nothingness ensues. This is where a emotion of panic occurs. The mystics has prepared for this state and so trusts it will pass. By trusting, the soul passes through it - the atheist who doubts the reality of an afterlife has truly shot himself in the foot. After this one than experiences his entire life, both good and bad. First one experiences the bad (as darkness precedes light, as the creation episode says 'there was evening, and there was day'. This is where meets each of the yetziratic forms he created. These are essentially the spirits of each action, word spoken and thought he had while alive which severed his connection to the one reality. This is where 'hell' sets in. One experiences the true reality of what he did when he committed that action. The feeling experienced according to the Jewish sages is one of intense emotional shame. Shame like a shame that a social humiliation in this world would pale in comparison. Its horrible, deep and painful beyond belief. After one has been taught - that is, punished by the very child of his creation (the demon/spirit he generated by acting the way he did) all his memories of this behavior are slowly burnt away. Sorta like gold being placed in a hot furnace. The dross is the evil spirits which clung to him. After the soul has been cleansed of their creation by experiencing the real nature of what he did, he enters the world to come, the 'olam haba' as its called in Judaism. The soul than basks in the beauty and pleasure of the unity affirming actions he performed while alive. His positive deeds, speech and thought are angelic forms which bring bliss to the soul. The soul has no memory of the evil it did. Its been expunged from its being. All thats left is the good. And in this realm, called Gan Eden (garden of eden) the soul lives in a Yetziratic double of the world he came from. This a lower level than the one experienced by the spiritually evolved who experience Gan Eden, in a pure beriatic sense, that is, abstract and intellectual. In either case, there is great joy for the soul.

Than, if the person is needing further rectification, his neshama or the part of him which needs correction descends and reenters the world of souls, recycled back into this world by being born into a family which meets his spiritual needs.

edit on 5-11-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

Just wanted to say how beautiful this was that you have taken the time to write. I have dabbled in Judaism, but never truelly studied the Thought on Death and Afterlife. Reminds me of something i read awhile back "soul fragments" and some other piece of new age thinking...that whatever you do this life...to anyone anything when you die you will directly feel how it felt, that you quite literally experience from the other person's point of view to understand truelly what it is you do.
Or something to that extent.
Anyhow i loved how u broke it down =]

Originally posted by KrypticCriminal
reply to post by dontreally

 

Well im not Jewish, but thanks for your reply.

I always like to hear, other faiths ideas on similar practices. Im not sure whether my desire to experience this state of conciousness is bred from curiosity or just so i can say that ive experienced it, so Egotistical reasons. This is something i'll definatley have to think long and hard about.

Ive began practicing Therevada buddhist meditation and contemplation techniques to gain better control over mind and a better understanding of myself and the world around me. Im only on the focusing my mind to a single point level or the first Jhana as its called. This experience of limitless space comes in around the third or fourth Jhana so ive got years before i reach anywhere near that level. So hopefully i'll be a lot wiser and less hindered by my Ego by then. I have heard of those who have died while doing this so theres definate correlations between this and Judaism, although ive never heard it mentioned, as to why these monks may have died in the process. So you've enlightened me a bit there.

Inner peice and coping with sufferance has always been my main aim. As long as i can get that out of my efforts i'll be happy with that. If i do feel ready to take this step, i'll be sure im doing it for the right reasons first. Ive got a long way to go, but im looking forward to the journey.

I was only mentioning Judaism because thats that i follow. The examples i gave though apply to all human beings, jewish or not.

Also, i gave advice that i would want to be given. Its always good to be reminded of your motivations when we do things. The ego is a sbutle bugger. He gets us excited and charged and thats good and all, the feelings in themselves, but when the excitement comes from some image i see for myself, theres a modicum of pride and immaturity there. Thats how the soul works. Whatever your motivations are, whatever youre tempted to do, is what currently resides in your soul, or, in psychological language, "your unconscious".

Thats why it takes some time to change those aspects of yourself. Its takes alot of discipline and diligence - and it should be done for its own sake, because its right, not because you have any goals of becoming a great wise man or a mystics with powers, or to brag about it to others. It should be done, ultimately, because you love your source and you want to be at one with him.

Im only 25 and i have a 5 or 6 years worth of studying mysticism, 4 years of which kabbalah, and i honestly feel like i have grown alot, but i still have a long way to go. I dont feel like my motivations are always precise. Often i engage in behavior that is counterproductive to my spiritual life, and so, im not as evolved as id like to be. But thats ok. It'll take a lifetime of effort and commitment. I want to serve G-d and its this which brings me joy and pleasure, in realy every aspect of my life. A commin rabbinic axiom is "who is wise? He who is happy with his lot in life". I dont have many things, aside from many books. I still dont even have a girlfriend yet (although im looking) and i live with my parents (along with my older sister and brother - financial situation isnt good yet) yet thats fine to me. In the larger picture many families in the world share a house together. Only here in the west has this stigma been cast on those who dont leave the nest at 18. Thats caker talk. Anyways, im just enjoying 'the ride' of life as come like to call it, but i have definite goals. Wife, children, a succesful career... But above that i want to grow in my connection to G-d.

Its a shame most of the west has such a confused understanding of Judaism. It is actually quite a deep religion. People think only the east is into meditation. As if Judaism or Christianity/Islam dont have these aspects. Its just ignorance. All human beings need to cultivate an awareness of their source and strive to live an upright life filled with enthusiasm and meaning.

reply to post by dontreally

I was only mentioning Judaism because thats that i follow. The examples i gave though apply to all human beings, jewish or not.

I never mentioned it because its a problem to me. All faiths provide wisdom, and i know that the points you make apply to anyone regardless of there faith. If im honest, im not a buddhist either, i just find the philosophy involved best suits what views i already hold. I remain faithless if you like, although im still spiritual in the sense that i except theres a source. I just dont call that source g-d like you. I may lean toward a certain faith eventualy but im just focusing on imroving myself first. If i can take a little from all faiths i'll be happy.

Thats why it takes some time to change those aspects of yourself. Its takes alot of discipline and diligence - and it should be done for its own sake, because its right, not because you have any goals of becoming a great wise man or a mystics with powers, or to brag about it to others. It should be done, ultimately, because you love your source and you want to be at one with him.

I understand that this may and probably will take a lifetime. I hope i havent given you the impresion that im only doing it to brag, or to become a mystic with powers. Trust me, id have no one to brag too. Im the only one in my group of friends that is even remotley interested in spiritual growth. It would be easier to not bother. As ive said before. I only want to become a better person. For me, not anyone else. To understand myself and the world around me, so i can avoid some of the sufferences that have doged my life thus far. How other people veiw this or how i appear to other people is'nt important. People can, and will think what they like.

Its a shame most of the west has such a confused understanding of Judaism. It is actually quite a deep religion. People think only the east is into meditation. As if Judaism or Christianity/Islam dont have these aspects. Its just ignorance. All human beings need to cultivate an awareness of their source and strive to live an upright life filled with enthusiasm and meaning.

I could'nt agree more, and its not just judaism. Many faiths are misunderstood. I havent looked in to Judaism personaly but i will and im sure i'll find many references towards meditation and contemplation. The only ignorance i have is lack of knowlege on my part. As for everyone else, they will probably remain ignorant. As for cultivating an awareness of my source. Thats exactly what i intend to do. Just my own way.