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posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 01:34 PM
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The government is not the country. Why do people have such a hard time understanding that. I love America. I HATE HATE HATE it's government...




posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 01:45 PM
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Don't leave...we need people with strong wills, minds,hearts and ideas. Speak your mind.
Start with your own community...join the PTA. Then your local city council...spend more time with your kids...help your local homeless shelter...Then become city commisioner....then run for Congress..Senate...Become president...anyone can.

That is the basic principle of our country. If you bust your hump you get somewhere. You can make a differnece. You may not be able to sway the presidency, but rmeember your vote counts. Iif you complain that you are getting nowhere and how much the government sucks, then you are not contributing anything but rather breaking down the infrastructure of America. This is double for you hypocrites out there who complain and do not vote. We need to start small in our own communites, and only thne maybe can we make a true difference in a few years....



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:01 PM
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SageIce:

If you don't like it here....

If you live in America and don't like it here then do you stay? I hate how some people talk about America being the bad guy, if that is what you belive than why do you live here? If America is the bad guy than so are you because you are supporting America by paying taxes. Why don't you go to Canada? Or are you going to wait for a draft before you leave? Or go to one of the contries you thing America is being evil to. Well you can stop waiting because a draf isn't happening any time soon. I am not trying to start a flame war I just would like an answer to my question, If you live in America and don't like it here why are you still here?


I don't know, maybe because they love their country so much that they can't stand to see it become a worse place? Maybe they love their country so much that they want to FIX the problems instead of ignoring them or glossing them over? Maybe they love their country so much that they want their voices to be heard so that other people can see some of the injustices that exist and through discussion and discourse everyone can work together to fix things?


Maybe they love their children so much they want to make sure that the country their children grow up in is a better country than THEY grew up in? You know, like those people who thought the Emancipation Proclamation was a good thing. Or who thought bringing about the end of segregation was a benefit?


People who blindly salute their flag and rabidly procliam their country to be the best without any actual FACT to back it up aren't patriots. They're morons who have no capacity for independant thought.

Ask any German in 1939.

And your government (ALL governments) doesn't give a flying fig for you as a person. They care about you as a VOTE or a campaign contribution.

You owe NOTHING to your current government. Nothing at all. It's not worth it for you to defend it, because the SECOND you become any type of problem at all for your government, do you think for a millisecond that you would be treated differently if you claimed to be a Patriot? Not at all.

Don't treat your government as a person, because it sure as hell doesn't treat you as one.

EasternDiamondback:

In the UK, moslem groups protesting the war in Iraq and hoping that an Islamic flag flies over 10 Downing St. aren't British patriots. They are Islamic "patriots" hoping for the supremacy of their primitive religion. The idea that dissent for the sake of dissent is a noble cause is garbage.


How dare you pretend to speak for those who you have no frickin clue whatsoever about.

The United States ENTIRE EARLY HISTORY is based on dissent and protest against imperial powers. Do you remember the Boston Tea Party? A little thing called the Revolutionary War?

Thank god your view wasn't reflected back then, the US would still be British.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:12 PM
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So called 'America bashers' saved hundred of thousands of lives by protesting an insane war, Vietnam. Hopefully they can save more lives by standing up to the government when they think the government is doing wrong. Maybe the 'America bashers' love America so much, they hate to see it's citizens die in vain attempts at war, or see their rights and freedoms stripped away.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:17 PM
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I don't understand where this charge of nihilism comes from. How do you recognize a Nihilist? Is everyone who strongly disagrees with US policy a Nihilist?


One who's convictions are rooted in a sort of"anti-"ness and/or the belief that there is no truth or objective reality, and where nothing is meaningful or of value is a nihilist. It's usually hard to gather in a singular event whether someone is a nihilist. But after timely observance, they can be spotted pretty quickly.


You say they don't offer solutions. I think you don't consider other's solutions.


I'm eager to hear of these so-called solutions.


You state their motivation for criticism is based on an "intense hatred for the United States". What proof or possible reason have you for that claim? Hasn't it occurred to you that some people may actually have legitimate reason to criticize?


Absolutely. And if you'd read the entire thread you probably would see that I have stated that there is legitimate criticism to be made and it does come from legitiamte sources. However, I suggest you attend one of those protests organized by leftist elements to see for yourself what the atmosphere is like. If you look hard enough you'll find naive people who thought they agreed with the message, until they heard the underlying motivations of the organizers. If you come across someone wearing a bandana over his or her face, shouting out some mindless slogan, waving a sign with another idiotic slogan or caricature, I'm willing to bet every dollar I have this person is no lover of his or her country.

www2.kenyon.edu...
www.claremont.org...
watch.windsofchange.net...
www.dorrk.com...
nationalreview.com...



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Sageice
If you live in America and don't like it here then do you stay?

They stay, probably because they have to. Have you tried to get employment in Europe or the UK? It is next to impossible. You need to have a Visa and most companies will not touch you unless you are a UK Citizen or European Citizen. They get priority first in those countries. The only way to really do it is to work for a company in the US, then get transferred overseas.

Just saying to leave is not a simple... OK, I want to move to Austria tomorrow. chances of getting employment are slim. You cannot just say I want to become a citizen of another country. You are not allowed to give up your citizenship without have another citizenship. So, if someone does not like their US Citizenship, they cannot give it up. So...... that leads me to my point.... The only thing you can do is complain....
I am not stating any opinion here, just the process and something to think about other than the straight philosophical idea, as it is easir said than done.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:29 PM
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How dare you pretend to speak for those who you have no frickin clue whatsoever about.


I'll go slow for you, because you seem to lack intellectual firepower. If you think calling for the death of Tony Blair and with that the establishment of an Islamic nation under sharia is British patriotism, then you should probably buy yourself a one way ticket to Karachi.


The United States ENTIRE EARLY HISTORY is based on dissent and protest against imperial powers. Do you remember the Boston Tea Party? A little thing called the Revolutionary War?

Thank god your view wasn't reflected back then, the US would still be British.


Think before you write. We didn't dissent just for the hell of it. It was for the sake of being free to self-govern. That's not dissent for the sake of dissent.








posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:32 PM
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The real problem is that any messages coming from the people get hijacked and dissolved before they can have any effect. Consider the following examples of this.

1) Look at the 9/11 Commission. They were given a huge responsibility by the people of America and by the families of the victims and most importantly by people who wanted to prevent such things from happening again. This was potentially HUGE. Something we should have been able to learn from. But instead it's irrelevant. Why? Because a bunch of old relics decided to use it as a springboard to thrust them into fame one last time. We should not be talking about BenVeniste or Kerrey or Gorelick. They are nothing. We SHOULD be talking about the findings. But instead it got hijacked.

2) Look at our media. They have the job of informing the people last time I checked. But instead they waste all of our time. Instead of reporting on what goes on in Iraq they report on what Sean Penn thinks about what's going on there, or what Tim Robbins or Geraldo Rivera think. Who cares? Those people should be restricted to their arena. People need to be given facts not stupidity.

3) Look at our election politics. The names of these men, what they look like, who they've slept with, and how "likable" they are should be irrelevant. I want to know who is going to do the better job for this country. That's all. Each of these people should shut the hell up with their stupid rhetoric and whining, sit down and tell me what you are going to do with your next four years should you win. And from those statements the public should pick a winner. That's it. Instead I have to hear stupid statements from stupid people like Bush's family is this, Kerry's wife is that, Bush is stupid, Kerry is ugly, who cares already? And their campaigns themselves wait for something to happen and simply react. Bush was wrong! Kerry was wrong! Reaction reaction reaction, no issues. If each candidate was forced to speak ONLY about why he should be elected president (A SUPREME honor and privelege) by his peers, the American people, then we'd have a real election and winner.

You want to know what's wrong with America? There's some stuff. But will anyone try to solve it? No. It's more important for people to grandstand and make money and get attention. It's more important to look at Jennifer Lopez's ass and which Friends star is sleeping with who. When it comes to political issues though people don't care. They just want to LAY BLAME. Nothing else but LAY BLAME. Bush 1 & 2, Clinton, Reagan, (those are the only ones I was old enough to understand being that I'm 25) all experienced this. Perrenial complainers who will never shut up but never offer help either. The only way this crap will be solved is for people to shut the hell up, get together, discuss what's wrong, and present ideas on how to fix it. Otherwise we'll continue down this path and the US will become another National Enquirer headline next to J.Lo's bottom.

[edit on 6-29-2004 by Djarums]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by curme
So called 'America bashers' saved hundred of thousands of lives by protesting an insane war, Vietnam. Hopefully they can save more lives by standing up to the government when they think the government is doing wrong. Maybe the 'America bashers' love America so much, they hate to see it's citizens die in vain attempts at war, or see their rights and freedoms stripped away.


Yes, I'm sure Jane Fonda manned an NVA anti-aircraft gun because she wanted to save lives.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Djarums
The real problem is that any messages coming from the people get hijacked and dissolved before they can have any effect. Consider the following examples of this.

1) Look at the 9/11 Commission. They were given a huge responsibility by the people of America and by the families of the victims and most importantly by people who wanted to prevent such things from happening again. This was potentially HUGE. Something we should have been able to learn from. But instead it's irrelevant. Why? Because a bunch of old relics decided to use it as a springboard to thrust them into fame one last time. We should not be talking about BenVeniste or Kerrey or Gorelick. They are nothing. We SHOULD be talking about the findings. But instead it got hijacked.

2) Look at our media. They have the job of informing the people last time I checked. But instead they waste all of our time. Instead of reporting on what goes on in Iraq they report on what Sean Penn thinks about what's going on there, or what Tim Robbins or Geraldo Rivera think. Who cares? Those people should be restricted to their arena. People need to be given facts not stupidity.

3) Look at our election politics. The names of these men, what they look like, who they've slept with, and how "likable" they are should be irrelevant. I want to know who is going to do the better job for this country. That's all. Each of these people should shut the hell up with their stupid rhetoric and whining, sit down and tell me what you are going to do with your next four years should you win. And from those statements the public should pick a winner. That's it. Instead I have to hear stupid statements from stupid people like Bush's family is this, Kerry's wife is that, Bush is stupid, Kerry is ugly, who cares already? And their campaigns themselves wait for something to happen and simply react. Bush was wrong! Kerry was wrong! Reaction reaction reaction, no issues. If each candidate was forced to speak ONLY about why he should be elected president (A SUPREME honor and privelege) by his peers, the American people, then we'd have a real election and winner.

You want to know what's wrong with America? There's some stuff. But will anyone try to solve it? No. It's more important for people to grandstand and make money and get attention. It's more important to look at Jennifer Lopez's ass and which Friends star is sleeping with who. When it comes to political issues though people don't care. They just want to LAY BLAME. Nothing else but LAY BLAME. Bush 1 & 2, Clinton, Reagan, (those are the only ones I was old enough to understand being that I'm 25) all experienced this. Perrenial complainers who will never shut up but never offer help either. The only way this crap will be solved is for people to shut the hell up, get together, discuss what's wrong, and present ideas on how to fix it. Otherwise we'll continue down this path and the US will become another National Enquirer headline next to J.Lo's bottom.

[edit on 6-29-2004 by Djarums]


I think this will be my third alotted vote for a great post this month.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by Sageice
If you live in America and don't like it here then do you stay? I hate how some people talk about America being the bad guy, if that is what you belive than why do you live here? If America is the bad guy than so are you because you are supporting America by paying taxes. Why don't you go to Canada? Or are you going to wait for a draft before you leave? Or go to one of the contries you thing America is being evil to. Well you can stop waiting because a draf isn't happening any time soon. I am not trying to start a flame war I just would like an answer to my question, If you live in America and don't like it here why are you still here?


I was born here. This is my country. Why the hell should I leave? The government is a minority, as powerful as they may be. I'm waiting for the people to realize what they've let our nation become, and then hopefully they'll take back what's theirs. Now, if I had money, I probably would leave. Have you ever moved to another state, much less another country? It ain't cheap.
And believe me, if I wouldn't get arrested, I'd stop paying taxes now. It's not like we have a choice.
We have about as much choice as we do in wearing seat belts. That's none, if you don't want to be a criminal. This isn't the same America it once was. I want the real America back, not this trumped up propaganda machine. The government does not represent America anymore...far from it.

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Damned]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 03:01 PM
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EasternDiamondback:

I'll go slow for you, because you seem to lack intellectual firepower. If you think calling for the death of Tony Blair and with that the establishment of an Islamic nation under sharia is British patriotism, then you should probably buy yourself a one way ticket to Karachi.


So, um, that's what you meant to say when you said :


In the UK, moslem groups protesting the war in Iraq and hoping that anIslamic flag flies over 10 Downing St. aren't British patriots.


See, cuz one is saying "protesting a war in Iraq" and the other is saying "calling for the death of Tony Blair". Try to clean these things up a bit before you post them. Because what you're saying in the first is not the same as you say in the second.

So let's not talk about intellectual firepower until you get your pilot-light lit, m'kay?




We didn't dissent just for the hell of it.


So what IS dissent just for the hell of it? Antiwar protests? Abortion protests? Draft protests?

Please, educate me as to what is VALID dissent and what is INVALID dissent, I await patiently.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by Jakomo
EasternDiamondback:

I'll go slow for you, because you seem to lack intellectual firepower. If you think calling for the death of Tony Blair and with that the establishment of an Islamic nation under sharia is British patriotism, then you should probably buy yourself a one way ticket to Karachi.


So, um, that's what you meant to say when you said :


In the UK, moslem groups protesting the war in Iraq and hoping that anIslamic flag flies over 10 Downing St. aren't British patriots.


See, cuz one is saying "protesting a war in Iraq" and the other is saying "calling for the death of Tony Blair". Try to clean these things up a bit before you post them. Because what you're saying in the first is not the same as you say in the second.


I was respondeding to this comment from you, the only thing you addressed to me in your last post:


EasternDiamondback: quote: In the UK, moslem groups protesting the war in Iraq and hoping that an Islamic flag flies over 10 Downing St. aren't British patriots. They are Islamic "patriots" hoping for the supremacy of their primitive religion. The idea that dissent for the sake of dissent is a noble cause is garbage.

How dare you pretend to speak for those who you have no frickin clue whatsoever about.

The United States ENTIRE EARLY HISTORY is based on dissent and protest against imperial powers. Do you remember the Boston Tea Party? A little thing called the Revolutionary War?

Thank god your view wasn't reflected back then, the US would still be British.


Get some sense first, and then start making it.




We didn't dissent just for the hell of it.


So what IS dissent just for the hell of it? Antiwar protests? Abortion protests? Draft protests?

Please, educate me as to what is VALID dissent and what is INVALID dissent, I await patiently.


This is the problem when morons jump in discussion with out reading into the background first. I responded to someone who said dissent was patriotic, or something to that effect. I disagreed. What if someone was protesting that suicide bombing is a noble deed? Is that virtuous? What if people protested in favor of genocide? Are they patriots? Suppose a bunch of pedophiles gather to support child molestation. Are they American heroes? Suppose a group of protestors march against the war, not because they feel it is objectively unjust, but because they hate America. Are they worthy of respect?

Dissent is not inherently noble, just as all opinions are not equally valid. Those based in reason are what we should take to heart and ignore the rantings of mindless maniacs. If that is too difficult for you to fathom, then I hope you aren't representative of the masses.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:00 PM
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Diamondback:

This is the problem when morons jump in discussion with out reading into the background first. I responded to someone who said dissent was patriotic, or something to that effect.


Hahahaha, or something to that effect.


What if someone was protesting that suicide bombing is a noble deed? Is that virtuous? What if people protested in favor of genocide? Are they patriots? Suppose a bunch of pedophiles gather to support child molestation. Are they American heroes? Suppose a group of protestors march against the war, not because they feel it is objectively unjust, but because they hate America. Are they worthy of respect?


Well, yes. They are. Isn't that obvious? I know you can't grasp it, but I'm patient. Even if a pedophile is standing up and saying "I should have the right to have sex with children", it's his RIGHT as an American to do so, even if he's trying to ensure he can perform terrible, heinous acts.

It's called freedom of expression, and it's a cornerstone of Democracy.

If you believe in something, even if I don't believe in it (morally or legally or religiously), you have every right to DISSENT. I can disagree with your stance, but I can't disagree with your right to legal dissent.

It's called FREEDOM, which is something I'd think you'd respect.

People are free to express their OPINIONS even if YOU don't agree with them. If you don't like that, move to China.



[edit on 29-6-2004 by Jakomo]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by Jakomo
Diamondback:

This is the problem when morons jump in discussion with out reading into the background first. I responded to someone who said dissent was patriotic, or something to that effect.


Hahahaha, or something to that effect.


I was already in the process of responding to your idiocy, i wasn't about hit "back" on my browser just to see exactly what she said. Go back and check for yourself. I stand by my statement.



What if someone was protesting that suicide bombing is a noble deed? Is that virtuous? What if people protested in favor of genocide? Are they patriots? Suppose a bunch of pedophiles gather to support child molestation. Are they American heroes? Suppose a group of protestors march against the war, not because they feel it is objectively unjust, but because they hate America. Are they worthy of respect?

Well, yes. They are. Isn't that obvious? I know you can't grasp it, but I'm patient. Even if a pedophile is standing up and saying "I should have the right to have sex with children", it's his RIGHT as an American to do so, even if he's trying to ensure he can perform terrible, heinous acts.

It's called freedom of expression, and it's a cornerstone of Democracy.

If you believe in something, even if I don't believe in it (morally or legally or religiously), you have every right to DISSENT. I can disagree with your stance, but I can't disagree with your right to legal dissent.

It's called FREEDOM, which is something I'd think you'd respect.

People are free to express their OPINIONS even if YOU don't agree with them. If you don't like that, move to China.


Dear god, you are dense. The argument is not whether he has the right. Of COURSE he has the right to express himself. The argument is whether his opinion is admirable; is the viewpoint reasonable, moral and/or just. Having the right to an opinion doesn't make an opinion right.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:43 PM
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I agree Eastern Diamondback, but the problem is deciding whats the right opinion and what's not. Obviously, whats right is based on the country's values within the Constitution, Declaration of Independence framework. But, there are different values that we are either adding or subtracting to this day. There are different views for where to take this country, and as long the views try to convey a positive outlook for the either the future of the country or its people, than it is generally a good view. The view detracts away or represses our nation than it is probably a bad one.

But you still need a reference point for just/moral, and I would be inclined to use the original founding of the country. Some people though, believe that the chain of events that led to where the country is today should be the reference point. Although, these may seem similar they are not, and this is where a lot of problems come into play.

So while some may seem anti- everything today, they just may be in fact pro- everything that was in the past. You see what I'm getting at?

Even the anti-corporation people believe in something past...

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
I agree Eastern Diamondback, but the problem is deciding whats the right opinion and what's not. Obviously, whats right is based on the country's values within the Constitution, Declaration of Independence framework. But, there are different values that we are either adding or subtracting to this day. There are different views for where to take this country, and as long the views try to convey a positive outlook for the either the future of the country or its people, than it is generally a good view. The view detracts away or represses our nation than it is probably a bad one.


No disagreements here.


But you still need a reference point for just/moral, and I would be inclined to use the original founding of the country. Some people though, believe that the chain of events that led to where the country is today should be the reference point. Although, these may seem similar they are not, and this is where a lot of problems come into play.


I would agree with you about the starting point with the foundation of the nation. I think motivations for someone's advocacy should be investigated. I would use the the ratification of the Constitution as a starting simply because it is a summary of fundamental tenets of Americanism. It is said that Neoconservatives would romanticize the Kennedy administration as the ideal starting point, with his assassination and LBJ's implementation of the Great Society measures as deviations from the American ideal. I understand your point.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 05:02 PM
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AHHGGHGHHGHH! I was hoping it wasnt this! "If you dont like America...then leave"
. Really its hard to move from COUNTRY to COUNTRY
. HELLO!!



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 05:06 PM
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I will have to agree with most of the posters on this thread. It's not that people don't like it here, I think it is more along the lines that they don't agree with the actions of the current administration. It is hardly treasonous to speak out against your government. Quite the contrary. That is what makes this country so great. Being able to speak your mind without the fear of being jailed. Now taking certain actions against the government, that is where people can cross the line. Just my meager 2 cents worth.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by AD5673
AHHGGHGHHGHH! I was hoping it wasnt this! "If you dont like America...then leave"
. Really its hard to move from COUNTRY to COUNTRY
. HELLO!!


No it isn't! The Mexicans don't seem to have a problem



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