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posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 10:13 PM
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I think that is why we sacrificed 800 plus American lives and $200 billion so people can question their country. I love my country but I don't trust the government. That is our perrogative. We want Iraq to have the freedoms we have and one of those freedoms is the ability to question the "whys" and "wherefores" of what our government is doing with OUR tax dollars!
Otherwise we are in no better shape than the country we just "liberated"!




posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 10:58 PM
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Get the hell out if you want to be an america basher.

either that, or 1) vote, 2) when the guy you voted for loses, do not cry foul, and 3) have the tact to not bash the war effort while our soldiers are fighting for the very freedom you are employing by saying they do not need to there.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 11:13 PM
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I'm with ya sagice!!

I hate people who just critisize and nothing else, who do they think they are?

We needed people like sagice back in the old days before the civil war (boy we screwed that up), strong people who would say "Stop picking on the british!!, if you don't like the way they run America then just get the hell out!".

Back then all those "patriots" just whined on and on about having to pay taxes to the British and wanting their own government. Screw them! Let them all go back to where they came from. I like the british they civilized us and gave us tea! (Until some ungrateful barbarians tipped it in the sea)

Unfortunatly we can't change the clock back to the good old days of British rule, but we can still stand up and say "I don't care if your familes have been here 10 generations, you arn't going to change MY government. Go live in Cuba or somewhere you whining patriots. "

Its not as if the people who complain have any BRAINS or anything, don't they believe what they are told? Are they too stupid to understand Bushes words? We don't want people like that here, they are DANGEROUS, they make us THINK.

I think we should all just follow and SHUT UP about changing things.

I have a new song for us to sing to show our solidarity... it was an old song but we can change the words... its starts...

AMERICA, AMERICA UBER ALLES!



[edit on 28-6-2004 by Netchicken]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by DirkPitt2004
Get the hell out if you want to be an america basher.

either that, or 1) vote, 2) when the guy you voted for loses, do not cry foul, and 3) have the tact to not bash the war effort while our soldiers are fighting for the very freedom you are employing by saying they do not need to there.



Or how about I stay here, not vote, complain that Bush lost the popular vote again, and say I do not think that Saddam was a direct threat, nor would he be in the immediate future...

And when the government is on my side, you can get the HELL out!!!


[edit on 28-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 11:36 PM
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Dammit Jamuhn don't you understand how democracy works?

Read my lips ...

The president who is elected (no matter how shady it is) is the best person for the job. That means that every decision he make is the BEST decision for the country. Therefore you have NO RIGHT to complain about his decisions, he won therefore they are the best.

Its like the pope (bless him). He is God's representitive on earth so everything he says is absolutly true with no mistakes, you must obey EVERYTHING.

When are people going to learn their place in the world? You are not here to critise him, but serve him, if you want an opinion then RUN FOR PRESIDENT YOURSELF. If you win then we will know that everything you say is 100% correct.

Understand now?



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 11:40 PM
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Yea, I wonder if I have any of that Charlemagne and Egyptian pharoah blood in me. I could of sworn about 3000 years ago that my ancestors were seeded by aliens. That should make a representative of God in some respect, right. LOL

HAIL BUSH right, death to all Arabs trying to take over our country!!!

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 11:46 PM
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That's the beauty of America. If you don't like it, you can try to change it. You can vote, protest, demonstrate, hand out flyers to inform people. Dissent is a patriots duty. You can love your country and hate the government at the same time.
I love America, I hate Dubya and his administration.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by NotTooHappy
That's the beauty of America. If you don't like it, you can try to change it. You can vote, protest, demonstrate, hand out flyers to inform people. Dissent is a patriots duty. You can love your country and hate the government at the same time.
I love America, I hate Dubya and his administration.


See, this attitude is probably the biggest problem with the USA. Dissent just for the sake of dissent is no virtue. And the most vocal and visual dissenters are almost exclusively America haters. They are enamored with Marxist/Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist visions of the country and of the world. These visions are fundamentally opposed to the core beliefs of America.

Too many of these asses are embarrassed by, feel guilty for, or are hateful of the fact that America is an Anglo-Saxon culture, majority white, Protestant, and capitalist. Noam Chomsky is no patriot, nor are the people in his ideological camp. Their nihilist style hatred for America lives soundly in the realm of the irrational, ehich explains why so many "intellectuals" could have supported the Taliban while it was still in power.

There are a those who do indeed disagree with what America is doing, yet still retain a genuine love of their country and their fellow citizen. These people are to be commended. But make no mistake, they don't make up the vast number of protesters in the typical big city anti-war protest. In the UK, moslem groups protesting the war in Iraq and hoping that an Islamic flag flies over 10 Downing St. aren't British patriots. They are Islamic "patriots" hoping for the supremacy of their primitive religion. The idea that dissent for the sake of dissent is a noble cause is garbage.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 01:04 AM
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I don't know much about Chmosky, but my impression from a lot of reviews was that he was well respected. You're the first person I hear to bash him, what's wrong with Chomsky?

BTW, what exactly do you think are the core beliefs of America, because they have largely changed since the country's original founding...

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 03:48 AM
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To the author: Oliver Wendell Holmes put it quite succinctly when he said:


If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other it is the principle of free thought, not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.

I too find it hard to take when I hear people bashing our country, being protected by the very strengths that they eschew, but I find comfort in the knowledge that "chances go 'round".



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 05:58 AM
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I would be interested what exactly makes the U.S. core beliefs infallible. No insult here, but being a European I don't see why these beliefs would be infallible. My country has those beliefs too, but I question them and don't agree with all of them. And if I found out they were wrong, I would attempt to change them.

@Netchicken
I don't agree with you that the leader of a country is god-like as you discribe him.
But even if he is, as soon as he makes decisions affecting other countries, you must also ask if his decision is the best for the world and not only for your country. Unless you do this, you are selfish and can't claim your government is trying to make the world a better place.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 06:16 AM
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Core Beliefs of the American people, though simular, are also a tad subjective. If it weren't then we would not have multiple parties. I suspect that NetChicken is being sarcastic and his post was in parody. Though ideally the governing legislation that is active is objective, the interpretation of it will be subjective. Would this property be a result of a nation being a republic or a democracy, or in the U.S. case both?



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:03 AM
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I dont know who you are, where you come from or where you are, but in my opinion, Netchicken, dude, you are the god round here ! Those are the funniest posts I have read in a long time, pity that only one or two have actually got with the program and understood ! All hail Netchicken, God of Irony and humour !

Full credit to ya




posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 08:25 AM
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i think i will take the "leave it" option. ive been here long enough and its been no fun. so ill get some money around me and then move to europe, canada, NZ, or australia.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by SocialistOrder
I would be interested what exactly makes the U.S. core beliefs infallible. No insult here, but being a European I don't see why these beliefs would be infallible. My country has those beliefs too, but I question them and don't agree with all of them. And if I found out they were wrong, I would attempt to change them.


What's fallible about secularized government, liberty for the common man, and the right to pursue happiness? Talk all you want about other hypothetical models, but the empirical evidence has shown its success in raising quality of life among citizens over previous forms of government. My claim is that it is the best available, not necessarily the best possible, though I've yet to see better.

Leftist views, whether in Marx's court, or Lenin's, or Stalin's, or Mao's, are usually that their philosophy is the best possible, the blueprint of utopia, yet they have no foundation in fact and reality. The principles for which they stand are no different than those of religion, both establish their legitimacy on the existence of unproven entities. Every failure of the left is supposedly the result of improper implementation..."It wasn't done the right way."

I recall back in 2001, just a few weeks after September 11, I witnessed students at Berserkley protesting against the soon to come military action in Afghanistan. What bothered me was a student hoping with ever fiber of his being that American troops would be slaughtered in Afghanistan. This individual was so full of hatred for America that he hoped the Taliban would emerge successful. To hell with the fact that everything they stood for and everything they did was an abomination before the eyes of any decent and rational person. It was this moment that awakened me to the fact that these people have nothing to offer. They are worse than useless people whose comtemptible irrationality is a poison to everyone of even slight soundness of mind and heart.

[edit on 29-6-2004 by Eastern_Diamondback]



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 12:23 PM
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The answer is so simple.

The only way something can be great is if it's faults are fixed. So if everyone decides to "love it" and completely ignore the faults, then good-bye...

Something else I noticed. Most of these "love it or leave it" types are the same people who say "Go out and vote, make a difference, etc. etc. etc." But wait! Aren't we supposed to "love it or leave it?" So what does our opinion matter? We vote and make a difference because we don't like something, right?

These so-called patriots are fooling themselves. They can't even say something comprehensible. No wonder they aren't the heroes.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by df1
I am sure the folks that are getting what they want from the US government are the ones which shout "love it or leave it" the loudest and would surely be thrilled if those which oppose them would just pick up and leave. Wouldn't it be great not to have any opposition?
[edit on 28-6-2004 by df1]


That was very well said!!!

Also Logical, Creative, Intelligent & Insightful. Thinking of that kind reflects someone who is thinking objectively about a problem and doing so from multiple levels and/or perspectives simultaneously.

I regret to inform you however, that you will not find many others who are able to comprehend what you're saying. If you haven't already found this to be true, you will soon enough. Continue to post ideas with large amounts of foresight and you'll notice very few people will respond. While on one hand I try to be optimistic and attribute that silence to be the result of the masses being in agreement, I somehow doubt that is truly the case.



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
The answer is so simple.

The only way something can be great is if it's faults are fixed. So if everyone decides to "love it" and completely ignore the faults, then good-bye...


Perfection is not a prerequisite for love. If it is for you, then I hope you seek not love, for it will be elusive.

But the truth is there are far too many people within the United States who's motivation for criticism is based on intense hatred for the United States, and not for any genuine concern for its people's welfare. Nihilism at its worst. To these people I say "Get the f%^& outta here."



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback
But the truth is there are far too many people within the United States who's motivation for criticism is based on intense hatred for the United States, and not for any genuine concern for its people's welfare. Nihilism at its worst. To these people I say "Get the f%^& outta here."


I don't understand where this charge of nihilism comes from. How do you recognize a Nihilist? Is everyone who strongly disagrees with US policy a Nihilist?

You say they don't offer solutions. I think you don't consider other's solutions.

You state their motivation for criticism is based on an "intense hatred for the United States". What proof or possible reason have you for that claim? Hasn't it occurred to you that some people may actually have legitimate reason to criticize?



posted on Jun, 29 2004 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by Sageice
If you live in America and don't like it here then do you stay? I hate how some people talk about America being the bad guy, if that is what you belive than why do you live here? If America is the bad guy than so are you because you are supporting America by paying taxes. Why don't you go to Canada? Or are you going to wait for a draft before you leave? Or go to one of the contries you thing America is being evil to. Well you can stop waiting because a draf isn't happening any time soon. I am not trying to start a flame war I just would like an answer to my question, If you live in America and don't like it here why are you still here?


because some of us believe in the fundamental principles of democracy.. that if we are unhappy with our country, it is our duty as citizens to speak out, to criticize, and to take steps to change it. it's easy to forget, but this country belongs to *all* its people, not just those who are happy or complacent. the audacity of the question is shocking. were the founding fathers happy with america? were civil rights activists happy with america? is your implication that they all should have just gone back to england or africa instead of trying to change things? being a patriot doesn't mean touting the party line, it means taking an interest in your country and understanding when it is going wrong.

-koji K.



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