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posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 03:45 AM
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If you live in America and don't like it here then do you stay? I hate how some people talk about America being the bad guy, if that is what you belive than why do you live here? If America is the bad guy than so are you because you are supporting America by paying taxes. Why don't you go to Canada? Or are you going to wait for a draft before you leave? Or go to one of the contries you thing America is being evil to. Well you can stop waiting because a draf isn't happening any time soon. I am not trying to start a flame war I just would like an answer to my question, If you live in America and don't like it here why are you still here?

BTW if you believed the Aussie Bloke hoax or that Y2K was gonna change the way we live, please don't reply, your opinion is worthless.




posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 03:55 AM
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People are critizing the government, since when is that disallowed, or do you believe the constitution is obsolete? I'm sure nobody truly hates it except for "terrorists." It's precisely that we love it that we criticize it and offer other solutions.

You sound like that guy off South Park, "If you don't like it, you can just Geeet Out!"

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:04 AM
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I agree with offering constructive solutions, but so many people now are doing nothing other than criticizing everything the government does. No solutions are being presented, no possible way to get out of any situation they disagree with, there are so many people that are doing this. I believe 100% that people should voice their opinions, whatever they be, and offer solutions... but how many Bush bashers out there call their local representative or Senator and tell them how they feel?? Honestly! I think that telling people to 'geeeet out' is a little extreme, but come on... if you disagree with something, don't just whine and complain... that never did any good nomatter what the situation.




posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:07 AM
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I love this argument, because its the most common and most ridiculous youll ever hear.
Try changing the position. Take Stalinist Russia, Pol Pots Cambodia or Hitlers Germany. Im not comparing the U.S to any of these; its just for the sake of argument. The people indoctrinated into these regimes would have your opinion on those opposing the regimes. What would we call the people opposing these regimes? Heroes. Thats what.

Youre basically asking why people question their country. Id say the people that question their country do so because they love it and want or change it for the better, or don't want to see it turn for the worse. They dont want to leave, they want to improve it. Your argument is nonsensical because a large percentage of those in your, and other countries, that questioned the government in the past are those that made it great. Look at the issues of slavery, universal suffrage, womans suffrage, civil rights, etc and for gods sake look at history. History proves that the true patriots are the ones that question their country.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by kegs]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:08 AM
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Theres a difference between the Government and the Country. People can love America yet hate what the government are doing, same as they can love Britain yet consider Tony Blair to be a traitor.

You need to differenciate between 'America' and the 'American Government'



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:09 AM
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I am not talking about people who criticize the government, hell I think they are lieing about the Roswell crash, and I criticize them about that. I am talking about people who think the government is the terrorist and planned 9/11. The ones who no matter what the government does even if it is something good, they still find a reason to hate it. There are people on this forum who sound like they do hate this contry. I just want to know how you can hate a contry but live in it. I myself am proud to live here and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I don't get how some people can be so blinded by their hate that they think everything that is terrorist related is done by the American government. They act like there are no terrorists in the middle east, that the government made this all up.

You bring up a good point, people are allowed to criticize the government, it's their constitutional right. It is also my constitutional right to criticize them. Or do you think the constitution only applies to those who you see fit?



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:13 AM
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Now what kind of hypocrite would I be if I said you couldn't criticize the criticizers? A good one!


But anyway, I was just wanted you to clarify your statements, because you seemed to have started off the wrong way.

The people who think there was a conspiracy during 9/11 probably results from the impersonal government these days. We don't really know these people, we just know how they portray themselves on television and news. I do think that the certain members of the administration knew what was going to happen on 9/11 whether they thought it was probably or not, they had the info. There are many anomalies, but that really isn't the point of this thread.

Basically, everyone is upset about what happened during 9/11. Somebody has to be blamed for it. People ask, how can this happen as well? And that's where the connection is made between the government and the events. So, you see, these people are patriots as well, just maybe misguided. So its better to show them the error of their ways in the respective discussions, than to just tell them to leave America.

Everyone is striving for their Utopia! Don't forget that.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:27 AM
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Sorry I didn't mean to put everyone who criticizes the government into one pot, I should have explained what I meant more. It was directed to those who apear to have blind hatred toward the country. Like sillinous said, give situations. If someone really thinks something is wrong they should do what they can to fix it. Instead of ranting about how horrible things are.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:33 AM
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Couldn't agree more, and I think 9/11 will even make the hard-core conspiracy theorists want to take a more active role in their government by voting. All the people with apathy before are being swayed IMO to change something through active approach as a result.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:34 AM
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Get out of here!! You mean to tell me this particular line of discussion is not going down the tubes right off the bat? I have to admit, I am impressed! Good job so far, gang!

In a way, I wonder the same thing. This nation is what it is, yet people are born into this nation and then take on contrary beliefs that can be found elsewhere, or come from other nations and demand that their beliefs of how things ought to be be instituted.

The answer is simple to me, though. The traditional values of the nation are what made the nation what it is, now that the hard part is done, others want to take over. Problem is, if other ideas didn't build it, those ideas aren't going to sustain it.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by Sageice
Sorry I didn't mean to put everyone who criticizes the government into one pot, I should have explained what I meant more. It was directed to those who apear to have blind hatred toward the country. Like sillinous said, give situations. If someone really thinks something is wrong they should do what they can to fix it. Instead of ranting about how horrible things are.


Problem is if nobody was ranting, we would not be here to discus this, our freedoms would have been wiped away a long time ago.
We have gained nothing in this world without fighting for it (and yes ranting IS part of that fight).
E.G. Womans right to vote, education for the poor(even thought that has been hi jacked by those who control), equal rights, 40 hr work week(even thought that sucks) I could go on all night, we got none of these things without ranting first....
Think about that!
Just because we live in a particular country does not mean we do not have the right to critisize, remember don't take hate of government as a hate for country, two different things. Once government rids it self of all forms of disent, that's it, we're slaves, and it's doing a bang up job, sheeple are everywhere


[edit on 28-6-2004 by ANOK]
hehehe it's says I edited, I didn't no lie...and it's gonna say it again now...lol

[edit on 28-6-2004 by ANOK]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 04:43 AM
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Problem is, if other ideas didn't build it, those ideas aren't going to sustain it.


Are you talking about the original founding, constitution and bill of rights? Or the entire chain of events leading to where America is right now? Just curious, before I say anything else.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 05:58 AM
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WHY is this thread in the "War on Terrorism" section? I see nothing in the original post in relation to the subject at hand.

Originally posted by Sageice
If you live in America and don't like it here then do you stay? I hate how some people talk about America being the bad guy, if that is what you belive than why do you live here? If America is the bad guy than so are you because you are supporting America by paying taxes. Why don't you go to Canada? Or are you going to wait for a draft before you leave? Or go to one of the contries you thing America is being evil to. Well you can stop waiting because a draf isn't happening any time soon. I am not trying to start a flame war I just would like an answer to my question, If you live in America and don't like it here why are you still here?

You ever think that maybe some of us are too poor to leave? The first and foremost requirement on this planet to do anything is to have money. If you give me enough money to buy a house and get me a secure job in another country, I'll get up and go right now.


BTW if you believed the Aussie Bloke hoax or that Y2K was gonna change the way we live, please don't reply, your opinion is worthless.

Why did you add this to your thread? This is a CONSPIRACY message board, and as such, people on here will think far more outrageous things than in other places online.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by heelstone]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 06:29 AM
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First of all why should we leave, my family has been here for hundreds of years dating back to the 1600's or before. My family has fought and died for this country. And why should we not question our government and demand to know the truth about things. Yes we pay taxes and expect something in return, not much just the facts and the truth. We expect our leaders to make their decisions about war and sending our young people to war as though its their own child their sending into harms way, (you'll notice none of their kids are going). We expect nothing more than the truth and that our government would never manufacture or disquise the truth to convince us to go to war, is that too much to ask? We also expect to be able to live in a country where we can speak our minds (correct me if I'm wrong but is that not freedom) without being shunned by our neighbors or investigated by the FBI simply because we don't like Bush and his policies including the patriot act. Should we never question them or their objectives or should we just follow along like sheep. Is your idea of patriotism to never question, to follow blindly, hmmm Hitler would have loved you, as long as your not jewish of course.



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 06:57 AM
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What other country is strong enough to handle the ideas of their citizens?...

What other country is strong enough to lend a helping hand to the suffering of the world?....

What other country is strong enough to defend the rights of all men & women to live in freedom?.......

What other country is strong enough to stand up in the face of worldwide criticism?.......

Answer.....there is no other country with the strength of the US....

Now saying that , you can ask, where does that strength come from?......

It comes from the people, it comes from you, and me, it comes with the freedom we have and the freedom millions of Americans have fought and died for, it comes from us because we have the freedom to voice our opinions, challenge authority, without the fear of hearing sirens and being hauled off to some hidden prison....

Now, there is responsibility that comes with that freedom and that is only natural in a free nation with laws to maintain that responsibility. Extremism is
not accepted and will never be because we are free and if you look at our policies and actions they pretty much come from the center of ideals which is a good thing.

However, if you take away the extreme opinions from one side or the other you destroy the balance of ideas that our country draws it's strength from..

So I say, whether your views are in line with mine or not I am proud to have you as part of the strongest nation in the world, please stay, as your voice is as important as mine and I look forward to hearing what you have to say even if you raise the hairs on the back of my neck as I am sure I have raised a few myself.....


df1

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 08:08 AM
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The "love it or leave it" mentality is based on the false premise that presumes that someplace exists where one could go to escape the US government. I can not think of a country that is not dominated by the US in some way, either by the US military, US political clout or US government dollars. The rumors of the demise of US power are grossly exagerated.

Thus it appears to me that the best place to be if you wish to be an agent of change is in the US, because the closer you are to the fountain of power, the greater access you have to the institutions and people that can implement the desired changes.

I am sure the folks that are getting what they want from the US government are the ones which shout "love it or leave it" the loudest and would surely be thrilled if those which oppose them would just pick up and leave. Wouldnt it be great not to have any opposition?

Get use to it, Im staying.
.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by df1]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by goose
Is your idea of patriotism to never question, to follow blindly, hmmm Hitler would have loved you, as long as your not jewish of course.


I never said not to question or to follow blindly, if you would have read my other posts you would have known that. I question everything, if there is something I don't agree with I try my hardest to change it, I don't go rambling about how much I hate it, I change it. I fight for what I believe in. I also research what I do believe to make sure it is what I think it is. To me the sheep are the people who watched Fahrenheit 911 and believed everything that movie said. Like with your remark "you'll notice none of their kids are going", how do you know? There are a lot of high up people in the government who's children are in the military or have served. Also it is not up to them to make their kids go anyways.

The reason I made the remark about Y2K and Aussie Bloke was because there were a lot of people who believed in those and criticised those who didn't, then they never said anything after they were proven wrong. I am mainly talking about the Y2K nuts who built shelters n stuff, and were saying you are all going to die. Well I am still here, what happened? My ATM card still works, all my money is still in my account.

df1: I am a very vocal person, I speak my mind. Get used to it.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Sageice]

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Sageice]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 08:52 AM
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This discussion has been raised so many times before in different guises.

So, I assume that anyone disagreeing with the goverment should leave, that way you can ensure that the same administration gets back in and everyone is agreeable. And what happens when you disagree, do you vote that administration out or do you just move to another country.

Those people who rant, as you say, I would assume, predominately voted for Gore in the last election, so they voiced their opinions then, but with little joy, as the election was manipulated, please don't deny it, and one of the most corrupt administrations ever to enter the White House took power.

If the American people are happy to have a fraud in the White House and suffer the global consequences......you made your own bed, now sleep in it.

I feel sorry for those Americans that have been tarred with the Republican brush, and are suffering as much as those that deserve it.

Bush has started something he knows he can't, and doesn't have to finish, he's taken a big dump, and it's up to everyone else to clean it up.

...and I guess the reason people don't leave but choose to critisize, is because they can, you know, a Democracy, at least thats what the US government calls it, and a large amount of the the US people still believe it. Mainly because they would prefer to live in ignorance or as Goose said "Follow blindly".

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Koka]



posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by Sageice

Originally posted by goose
Is your idea of patriotism to never question, to follow blindly, hmmm Hitler would have loved you, as long as your not jewish of course.


I never said not to question or to follow blindly, if you would have read my other posts you would have known that. I question everything, if there is something I don't agree with I try my hardest to change it, I don't go rambling about how much I hate it, I change it. I fight for what I believe in. I also research what I do believe to make sure it is what I think it is. To me the sheep are the people who watched Fahrenheit 911 and believed everything that movie said. Like with your remark "you'll notice none of their kids are going", how do you know? There are a lot of high up people in the government who's children are in the military or have served. Also it is not up to them to make their kids go anyways.


.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Sageice]

[edit on 28-6-2004 by Sageice]


First of all have you seen Fahrenheit 911, have you actually went to see it? Or are you drawing your criticism about that movie from someone else take on it or what the Bush folks are saying? Until you go to see it then please don't tell me any opinions you have on the movie, because how can you truly have a valid opinon without seeing it, all your doing is repeating someone else viewpoints on it. As far as the senate or congress having children in the war there is only member that has a child in Iraq. I knew this long before I saw Fahrenheit 911. I never said they should make their kids go but they apparently have no problem making your kids or my kids go once they join up. They jump up and wave that flag of patriotism like its their own private banner and we the masses are supposed to eat it up and never question their motives. Basically what it sounded like you said boils down to, "If you don't like it, leave it!" Maybe thats not what you meant to say but it sure came off that way. I did read where you said one should do something about it and call or write their senators and congressman and voice their views on the issues, I have done that several times. It is a healthy thing to question the government. It is a healthy thing to discuss the government with our friends and family. It is a healthy thing to voice our viewpoints on it and to learn because knowledge is power.


df1

posted on Jun, 28 2004 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by Sageice
[df1: I am a very vocal person, I speak my mind. Get used to it.


I would not have it any other way.

IMHO the regular people of the country most likely agree on more thing than they disagree. Unfortunately I think that the powers-that-be (via the media) create false divisions using special interest groups that keep us battling with ourselves while they steal the cream that rightfully belongs to all of us. I will try harder in my posts to find points of agreement.

I believe we all want a government that is more open, more honest and more fair to everyone. Also I think we can all agree that US dollars are better spent at home rather than in other countries, both in terms of security and in building the US economy. Can we at least agree on these ideals even if we can not agree on a particular policy?
.



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