Auschwitz Gas Chambers a Myth?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I think Cole's arguments were sound and persuasive and I would need actual arguments from him, that could outline the reasons why he felt the need to recant them in order to reach any conclusion that they were false or poor or incomplete arguments.

If you do a search you will find a statement where he apologises for his participation in those films. I cursory glance at the background of the 'adults' involved in making those films 'with' him should be proof enough that he was exploited and that he doesn't particularly want to go into it these days. It was many years ago, he was just a kid. You will also find other sites that claim David was forced to make that statement, but if you bother to dig a little, you will find those reports can be traced back to the same group that funded the original films. This level of revisionism is pure deflection, very unsophisticated and tailored to appeal to the lowest common denominator, it does not bear up to any scrutiny, they don't even try to cover their tracks because they rely on the instantaneous emotional response from a target audience.

reply to post by bigyin


this would explain the issue or lack thereof of the auschwitz number reduction.

specifically

Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Yet you will elsewhere on ATS, as I am convinced that the real motivation of the holocaust was to help repopulate Israel and that a lot more people were involved in that conspiracy than just the Germans.

If that is the case why were enormous resources place at the disposal of the Foreign Office, by British tight fisted standards, to prevent all immigration into Palestine. And why was everything done to prevent the Germans proposals, repeated proposals, to allow immigration to Palestine by the Reich Jews. Only Hitler publicy refused to allow Jews immigration to Palestine and that was only to cover for the fact that Eichmann's office and particularly, Reinhard Heydrich, who was later illegally assassinated in a joint Czech and British SIS operation, worked with Zionist paramilitary organisations to transport as many able bodied men as possible out of the Reich and into Palestine. British foreign policy towards the Jews and Palestine actually led to far more deaths than it even got close to saving, if indeed it saved any at all. The British backed the Arabs remember, for as long as they needed to at least.

This is a old sales tactic, by denying people something and saying you can't have or do something, especially once a genuine need occurs you create additional desire, and a real craving for that thing.

Prior to the turmoil in Germany that began around the time of the Crystal Night many European Jews did not want to leave Cosmopolitan European Homes and succesful businesses to immigrate to Palestine a veritble provencial backwater absent of many of the amenities and economic opportunities they had in Europe.

When Herzl first approached the Rothschild Family for aide, he approached the Parisian Branch of the Family and they turned him down, citing that they would just end responsible for feeding everyone in the colony and if they failed to keep doing so it would have dire public relations consequences.

Later Herzl managed to convince the London Branch of the Family using in part the blackmail of strikes and riots and civil disorder within London if Lord Rothschild would not lend his name and aide but it remained a concern for Rothschild that he would just get stuck feeding a host of Eastern European and Russian Jews who were neither very afluent or hard working in his estimation.

Early immigration was largely Eastern European and Russian Jews, but both Rothschild and Churchill were convinced they needed the cosmopolitan Western European Jews to really get a colony off the ground and make it workable.

I am relatively certain Rothschild had Herzl poisoned so he could no longer use threats of strikes or civil disorder by the Zionists and took over the movement himself to better control it, and then like the astute businessman he is conspired to get the kind of Jews he wanted in the colony in mass, by orchestrating an overwhelming desire to go there.

This is my theory, based on motive and opportunity, as it really was Lord Rothschild who had far more to gain than Hitler would have in making a racially pure Germany.

Rothschild had basically been handed a trump card in the Balfour agreement, the chance to insert an entire new nation into the oil rich Middle East that would allow for a whole host of opportunities to use them as a means to maximize the profits off of one of the world's most vital resources.

It was Rothschild who had the most to gain from the Holocaust, and as such, I like him as the architecht of the whole thing for that very reason.

Hitler's racially pure Germany sounds great from a romantic and emotional standpoint, but Hitler was not being financed by emotional or romantic men, but by International Bankers and Industrialists.

All of whom have made fortunes off of the permanent Military Industrial Complex that sprang up after the war, and all of whom have made a fortune off the high price of oil, made so high by political and military and religious tensions between the Israeli and Arab nations in the Middle East.

I don't think the whole truth about the holocaust has come out yet, or that the Jews are finished being persecuted since Christian Prophecy basically is all about a huge battle being fought over Israel and a one world government being installed in the aftermath.

I do believe the Powers that Be are using Israel to mimick Biblical Prophecy and I do believe that they will without remorse kill everyone in it, to have that armegeddon like war that mimicks biblical prophecy and sets up a one world government.

As such it was vital to create an impetus for Jews to immigrate and the kind of Cosmopolitan and business savy Jews that could get a brand new state off the ground and make it work.

This is my thinking, and I believe there is some evidence to support it, and I believe that certain elements of the Holocaust if correctly understood will show that certain Jews were considered expendable, while others were not considered expendable and that each group was treated differently with a long term future in mind.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


you can believe in magic all you want but, at the end of the day, it's still nothing more than an illusion.

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by bigyin

 

this would explain the issue or lack thereof of the auschwitz number reduction.

specifically

Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.

Is there a reference for this quote please ?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I think Cole's arguments were sound and persuasive and I would need actual arguments from him, that could outline the reasons why he felt the need to recant them in order to reach any conclusion that they were false or poor or incomplete arguments.

If you do a search you will find a statement where he apologises for his participation in those films. I cursory glance at the background of the 'adults' involved in making those films 'with' him should be proof enough that he was exploited and that he doesn't particularly want to go into it these days. It was many years ago, he was just a kid. You will also find other sites that claim David was forced to make that statement, but if you bother to dig a little, you will find those reports can be traced back to the same group that funded the original films. This level of revisionism is pure deflection, very unsophisticated and tailored to appeal to the lowest common denominator, it does not bear up to any scrutiny, they don't even try to cover their tracks because they rely on the instantaneous emotional response from a target audience.

Why would he need to appologize when all he needs to do is state his new findings in a more compelling way.

I am really only interested in the quality of the arguments, how much sense they make or don't make, not who is making the argument, and not who is picking up the tab.

He made some very sound points in his presentation, and he would need to make equally sound points to either debunk, discredit, or revise them.

While I am making an assumption based on your own characterization of his later revelations as being an appology if in fact all he offered was an appology then obviously there were some political and motivating factors involved.

If that appology included sound and strong arguments that could actually overcome his original sound and strong arguments then I would be just as likely to find merrit in those as I did his original arguments. I didn't like his original arguments because I was biased towards them, I liked them because they made sense and were presented well and well researched and formulated.

So sorry I should not have talked about those things, and bad people paid me to talk about those things, isn't what I would consider a real strong or valid presentation that would make his previous arguments and positions not as credible as they were.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This is my thinking, and I believe there is some evidence to support it, and I believe that certain elements of the Holocaust if correctly understood will show that certain Jews were considered expendable, while others were not considered expendable and that each group was treated differently with a long term future in mind.

It may be your thinking but if you knew the scheme of things you would know just how incredibly insignificant the Jews were to British plans, to anyones plans, they were first money and then meat, nothing more. That is how cold all the decision making was, no one gave a damn about the Jews, that is why the Nazis felt forced to kill them. The Nazis did everything they could to avoid the mass execution of the Reich Jews, short of unconditional surrender, which they knew Hitler would reject, those attempts were rejected at every turn.

The Reich Jews of course should be differentiated from the Slavic or Eastern European Jews who nobody even considered intervening on behalf of. They were usually shot on the spot though, easier, they looked different and spoke a different language. It was only for the White, European Jews that efforts were made to kill them in a more humane way.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So sorry I should not have talked about those things, and bad people paid me to talk about those things, isn't what I would consider a real strong or valid presentation that would make his previous arguments and positions not as credible as they were.

Is that what he says? You've read it then?

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

you can believe in magic all you want but, at the end of the day, it's still nothing more than an illusion.

Can you explain then when at the age of 9 I was able to make a Cub Scout watch that had not worked in well over a year and could not be made to work by any concerned adult in anyway, then suddenly began to work at the precise moment in time I was holding it and following Uri Gellars instructions while he was on TV giving them.

My parents, Grandparents and teachers at school had no explanation, it was clearly working, it was clearly not working before the attempt using this method.

That doesn't sound like an illusion to me.

So no I don't possibly see how Uri Gellar could be a fraud.

Maybe he used magician tricks in some of the things he did, but clearly there was something about the man that was legitimate. The only other explanation is he convinced me I wasn't a fraud and I discovered I had such power, but I considered Yuri to be the source of that at the time and not myself.

Because I had success doing what Yuri Gellar instructed me, and had continued success using that same technique with about the most difficult thing to fix there is, I really believe Yuri was pressured not to make these techniques popular.

That he isn't a fraud, but that it was in the interest of maintaining the real illusion which is our world system, and that people developing that aspect of their nature would have threatened that.

I am not saying that there is not information that would over come David Cole's arguments, but I would ideally want to see David Cole present that information and in essence debunk himself.

The man presented a very strong case, that I was not predisposed or biased towards. He made some convincing arguments, therefore he must have some convincing arguments to overcome them if he is recanting on them.

I would certainly listen to those with the same open mindedness as I listened to his original ones.

I don't have a selective bias that precludes me from listening to and fairly considering well presented factual presentations that are research rich and make sense.

These threads and this discussion is a genuine opportunity to provide people like myself with more information, but I do not consider broad sweeping generalizations to be more information.

Thanks.

It seems as though my friend Proto has accumulated a warning for participation in this thread

that my friends is an action that I have to express my displeasure with because...

If you do not have a set of principles that you are willing to die for then you are already dead-
William Cooper

I have looked through all of Proto's posts and I have seen nothing
NOT ONE THING warrants a warning

Everything he discusses is about the Gas Chambers or the study itself

He described in detail the history
of the work camps

He detailed the American investment in the 3rd reich

Please stop all of the name calling

So that being said...

Proto is one of the finest
if not the finest mind here on ATS

You should all feel each deeply honored that you have such an intelligent
learned
and above all

RESPECTFUL

person who not only ADDS MOMENTOUS INFORMATION TO THIS WEBSITE
BUT HE OFFERS THE TRUTH

Sometimes the truth is actually hard to swallow

reply to post by Josephus23


I sure do appreciate your concern Josephus and support as I do with all my many friends here on ATS that are so great to me.

Yet I do have to point out the ATS Staff has been great to me as well, and I did make a serious error in judgment in some of what I what I posted in a reply to Nerformore.

So I really wasn’t singled out unfairly or for no reason.

It reminds of the one time I was arrested for some ridiculous misdemeanor and when the Captain of the station found out I had been and my position in the local business community he personally came along with his Lieutenant and Duty Sergeant to the squad room that they were holding me, to all introduce themselves and to apologize that in absence of being able to get a hold of the States Attorney they had no choice but to arrest me on paper, put wanted to handle that at the highest level in the most expeditious way possible.

Here in a very similar way, I got the Owner and one of the Administrators to present the violation in a really touching one on one display, that lets face it, they don’t afford to everyone, and every violation of the Terms of Service.

They gave me a fair chance to respond to what they decided was wrong of me to do, and to address their concerns directly and to respond back to them.

So once again, I think the staff has certainly been very responsive and willing to interact with me directly in a one on one public way, when it comes to their concerns.

I sure can’t fault them for that. I did step over the line, and that did prompt a reaction.

That’s nobody’s fault but mine.

So please don’t let it upset you or anyone else since I was wrong.

I feel bad it has detracted from the discussion, and I would certainly like to see that resume.

As you know I posted some videos made by David Cole earlier in the thread and both Craueker and one of the other newer members to the thread have said he later recanted his position.

Yet beyond saying that he was funded by some sources that they considered dubious, and that he was young and impressionable at the time he made the videos and perhaps duped and manipulated by the people who helped him finance his research and trip to Auschwitz they weren’t able to present any of Cole’s own more recent arguments to overcome his very own very compelling earlier arguments.

So what we might be seeing here is yet another conspiracy where political pressure, economic pressure or threats were made behind the scenes to get him to publicly recant his previous findings.

So this might be a great new thing for us to investigate as far as what really compelled David Cole to make a public apology for his excellent documentation on Auschwitz and then recant his own findings.

While the staffs actions in regards to me were completely justified, we shouldn’t allow that side drama to interfere with continuing on with a our attempts to have a serious discussion and to investigate things like the intrigue involving Cole that display that maybe the official story doesn’t really quite add up and some extraordinary measures are taken to keep that ever from being seriously questioned.

I believe as always there was a hidden hand behind the Holocaust never brought to light or justice for their participation and orchestration of it, and it is really that, that leads to the extraordinary efforts in maintaining the official story and the huge investment in dollars in promoting that story.

In a world where no one human being or group outside of the ruling class has ever had any real value to the ruling class, is it really safe to believe that all this effort is simply being made to protect the Jewish people from future persecution and discrimination, or is all this effort really being made to protect a few members of the ruling class who helped orchestrate the holocaust for unstated reasons of their own to hide their crimes.

Let’s focus back in on the discussion.

Thanks.

So From What I can Gather

The validated information on both sides of the issue has been so long diluted that it is impossible for one person to make a clear stand as to who is right and who is in the wrong

(and you know which stand of the debate and expressing that I do have bias but the information is simply contradictory to what one would think)

So we had all these people killed by this crazy dude Hitler in his Eugenics program
Correct

Say it happened Okay

It was an abomination of humanity and it happened bottom line
I will offer my condolences a million times over but questioning certain aspects of it is what critical thinking entails

But answer me this please

Why do we recognize Israel as a state in the UN in in its occupation of Gaza

Who are the 8 class A shareholders in the Federal Reserve
With links to the Bank of England

Try reading about executive order 12803

Who do you think that the money behind the Balfour Declaration was provided by

Kennedy was murdered only months after signing this executive order

Guys we got two years left tops

Don't freak out for a bombshelter
Build yourself

shalom
inshallah
amen

Originally posted by bigyin

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by bigyin

 

this would explain the issue or lack thereof of the auschwitz number reduction.

specifically

Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.

Is there a reference for this quote please ?

Hmmmm .... I didn't think so

Odd isn't it when you ask a very straight forward question you never get a straight reply.

Is this an example of the 'documentation' we are supposed to accept ? It's just been made up.

reply to post by Josephus23


Former White House correspondent Helen Thomas stands by her controversial remarks on Israel that led to her retirement. She told an Ohio radio station...

'' You cannot criticize Israel in this country and survive ''

reply to post by bigyin


no, the estimates that various historians arrived at are all very similar for a reason.

from wikipedia, which has references for each of the estimates mentiond:

Hilberg's estimate of 5.1 million, in the third edition of The Destruction of the European Jews, includes over 800,000 who died from "ghettoization and general privation"; 1,400,000 killed in open-air shootings; and up to 2,900,000 who perished in camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll of Jews in Poland as up to 3,000,000.[233] Hilberg's numbers are generally considered to be a conservative estimate, as they typically include only those deaths for which records are available, avoiding statistical adjustment.[234]
British historian Martin Gilbert used a similar approach in his Atlas of the Holocaust, but arrived at a number of 5.75 million Jewish victims, since he estimated higher numbers of Jews killed in Russia and other locations.[235] Lucy S. Dawidowicz used pre-war census figures to estimate that 5.934 million Jews died (see table below).[236]
There were about 8 to 10 million Jews in the territories controlled directly or indirectly by the Nazis (the uncertainty arises from the lack of knowledge about how many Jews there were in the Soviet Union). The six million killed in the Holocaust thus represent 60 to 75 percent of these Jews. Of Poland's 3.3 million Jews, over 90 percent were killed. The same proportion were killed in Latvia and Lithuania, but most of Estonia's Jews were evacuated in time. Of the 750,000 Jews in Germany and Austria in 1933, only about a quarter survived. Although many German Jews emigrated before 1939, the majority of these fled to Czechoslovakia, France or the Netherlands, from where they were later deported to their deaths. In Czechoslovakia, Greece, the Netherlands, and Yugoslavia, over 70 percent were killed. More than 50 percent were killed in Belgium, Hungary, and Romania. It is likely that a similar proportion were killed in Belarus and Ukraine, but these figures are less certain. Countries with notably lower proportions of deaths include Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Italy, and Norway. Albania was the only country occupied by the Nazis that had a significantly larger Jewish population in 1945 than in 1939. About two hundred native Jews and over a thousand refugees were provided with false documents, hidden when necessary, and generally treated as honored guests in a country whose population was roughly 60% Muslim.[237]
killed at the major extermination camps is estimated as: Auschwitz-Birkenau: 1.4 million;[132] Treblinka: 870,000;[147] Belzec: 600,000;[135] Majdanek: 79,000 - 235,000;[141][239] Chełmno: 320,000;[137] Sobibór: 250,000.[145] This gives a total of over 3.8 million; of these, 80–90% were estimated to be Jews. These seven camps thus accounted for half the total number of Jews killed in the entire Nazi Holocaust. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Poland died in these camps.[216]

There are also a references on several sites to recently discovered british and russian documents that indicate the total death toll could, actually, be higher than originally believed. How old are these statements or have they already been factored in to the estimates? I cannot say.

If you'll notice, in the above quote, the death toll for Auschwitz is at 1.4 million. Even if you drop that to 100,000, you're looking at over 4 million killed.

you can try and spin the facts any way you'd like but, at the end of the day a fact is a fact.

reply to post by Crakeur


There in fact may be something more important regarding the number of 6,000,000 when it comes to the Shoah which is the word many Jews use in referring to the holocaust. Shoah means calamity, however holocaust means consumed by fire or burnt offering.

Throughout Judaen religious texts and practices the number 6 is sacred. Numerology factors heavily in to the Judean Religion.

For instance it is alleged that Moses waited to lead the Jews out of Egypt until there were 600,000 Jews there, one for each letter of the Torah.

There are 6 points in the Star of David.

The United States Holocaust Memorial is designed to cover 36,000 feet, which is 6,000 x 6,000 the museum also includes the 6,000 foot Hall of Remembrance which has six sides.

Six represents contemplation based on the completeness of north, south, east, and west, above and below.

The Torah states that while in Egypt Jewish Woman bore six children one at a time.

There were 6 days in creation.

The tablets alleged to be given to Moses at Sinai were six handbreadths in each direction.

The Hebrew letter ‘vav’ is the sixth letter in their alphabet and is known as the letter of truth.

Six is believed to be the power which links together the souls of Israel.

There are in fact only believed to be 600,000 Jewish Root souls with all the others fragments of them connected to them.

Now in 70 AD Tacitus wrote that the number of Jews slaughtered in Jerusalem was 600,000, while again in 135 AD Cassius Dio states that 600,000 Jews are killed in the Bar Bokhba rebellion, in the Jewish People’s Relief Committee Report of 1921 published in the Ukraine 60,000 Jews were slaughtered by Gaidmak Cossacks, while in 1880 the New York Times editorializes that there are 600,000 Jews in Germany warring with the natives that engage in no agriculture or mercantile but simply control trade and the money markets, in 1900 the New York Times again states that Rabbi Samuel Wies founder of the Federation of Americans Zionist claimed that 6,000,000 Jews in Europe that are suffering favor Zionism, in 1916 the American Jewish Committee published a book, about the Jews in the Easter War Zone stating that 6,000,000 Jews are prisoners guarded by an army of corrupt and brutal jailers, in 1917-1920, 60,000 Jews are murdered in pogroms in Poland and Russia in 1918 the New York Times of October 18th ran a full page add wanting to raise one hundred million dollars through the Joint Distribution Committee of the American Funds for Jewish War sufferers stating 6,000,000 Jews need help, in 1919 the American Hebrew Publication of October 31st publishes an article that the Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop and that 6,000,000 Jews need help, in 1936 Chaim Weitzman president of the World Zionist Organization told the Peel Commission on November 25th of that year that 6,000,000 Jews are imprisoned in Europe where they are unwanted, in 1937 Weitzman again reports to the Zionist Congress of London that 6,000,000 Jews only hope is emigration.

While this is not proof of anything other than the number 6 is very important to the Jewish Religion and it comes up amazingly quite frequently when it comes to Jews suffering calamities there is some credible circumstantial evidence that the number 6,000,000 is vital to the sacred religious principles of Judaism and that as such the number of 6,000,000 Jews Killed in a Burnt Offering (Holocaust) in the Shoah (Calamity) is simply a symbolic number intrinsic to the religion itself.

According to Father Patrick Desbois, the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust can go even as high as 7.5 millions.
Father Patrick Desbois has devoted his work since 2002 to investigate the 'killing by bullets' Jews in eastern Europe. He uncovered more than 700 unknown mass graves of Jews murdered by the Nazis and collaborators.

www.holocaustbybullets.com...
www.haaretz.com...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


The only problem there is that the 6 million figure was not estimated by jews alone. Personally, I find the frequency of numbers appearing in our lives to be something called coincidence.

it's also 6:06 twice a day - when I wake up and when I leave my office (on a good day) and, being jewish, that must mean something too.

All the random, Cliff Claven-esque extrapolation in the world won't deflect the reality that you seem determined to ignore.

The ITS Holocaust Archive in Bad Arolsen, Germany contains the fullest records of Nazi persecutions in existence.

The archives contain 50 million pages, housed in thousands of filing cabinets in 6 buildings. Overall, there are 16 miles of shelves holding information about the victims of the Nazis.

The documents - scraps of paper, transport lists, registration books, labor documents, medical records, and finally death registers – record the arrest, transportation and extermination of the victims. In some case, even the amount and size of the lice found on the prisoners’ heads were recorded.

What information is contained in the collections of the ITS that makes them particularly important? The archive contains documents illustrating the persecution, the exploitation and the destruction of millions of civilians by the Nazis. The mass and uniqueness of these documents illustrate the horrors that were systematically committed by the National-Socialist regime on a large scale between 1933 and 1945. They might not shed light into previously unknown phenomena of twentieth century history, but they certainly confirm, solidify and deepen understanding about the despicable system which the Nazis employed to destroy human beings. Thus, for example, prisoner movements, demography of the camp inmates or questions related to health and mortality of forced labourers can henceforth be investigated in depth.

judaism.about.com.../XJ&sdn=judaism&cdn=religion&tm=252&f=20&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.its-arolsen.org/english/i ndex.html
judaism.about.com...

In another cabinet, precise, handwritten records of executions fill pages of lined composition notebooks from the Mauthausen camp. Forty-eight people were shot at two-minute intervals on April 20, 1942-a present to Hitler on his birthday. "Anyone else would have just shot them and buried them in a mass grave," Jost says, sliding the cabinet closed. "Not the SS.

They wrote it all down."

www.usnews.com...