Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Sorry to interrupt this love fest / fantasy about NAZI technological prowess, both real and imagined. To go back to the OP.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
It cites a declassified MAGIC decrypt from December 1944 referring to German use of nuclear weapons about August 1943. "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9" December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978. The decrypt reads:

Trouble is that the above “official sounding” reference cannot be found in the US or UK National Archive. The reference and the subsequent quoted narrative are made up. If anyone can actually reference an official source then one can only conclude someone is trying to sell a book.

Regards

Originally posted by paraphi
Sorry to interrupt this love fest / fantasy about NAZI technological prowess, both real and imagined. To go back to the OP.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
It cites a declassified MAGIC decrypt from December 1944 referring to German use of nuclear weapons about August 1943. "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9" December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978. The decrypt reads:

Trouble is that the above “official sounding” reference cannot be found in the US or UK National Archive. The reference and the subsequent quoted narrative are made up. If anyone can actually reference an official source then one can only conclude someone is trying to sell a book.

Regards

As the digitization of national archives is an ongoing project, many remain available only in paper form in libraries. Now, did you contact the appropriate archivists? How can we be sure you did?

I'd be interested in hearing about your attempt to locate this record. What telephone numbers did you call? Did you use e-mail, and if so, can you provide copies and headers?

No?

reply to post by buddhasystem


I don't find you to be credible any more. You don't know all the experiments at "CERN" because it is a huge organization with thousands of experiments and programs going on at any time.

And, as I said, the thing about dual-use technology is that it appears to be benign.

If you want to be believed you should start providing some loose references, at least, that allows one to check at least small tidbits of your stories. As it stands, you become less believable with each post.

Originally posted by dowot
Regarding Germany's development on different lines to others.

Both the UK and Germany had RADAR early on in WW2. However both systems differed in many details, based primarily on what was available at the moment. The German system was in fact better than the UK's and I believe went on to form the RADAR we use now.

Sorry, not going to provide evidence as it is easily found with a quick search.

The information regarding a nuclear bomb was available to many pre 2nd WW, and Germany had supplies of fission materials from Africa. Whether they managed to build one will probably never be known, in the word of wars that wars engender all sorts of threats, promises and developments happen.

Thanks Sy for starting this thread.

An excellent source for German WWII technological research in general, and specifically radar, is the web site I cited earlier in this thread - cdvandt.org.

They have collected and translated many war-time documents, and have countless photographs of German electronic apparatus for your perusal. They also provide a large number of schematics, which, if you can read them, will blow your mind with their elegance.

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by dowot
The German system was in fact better than the UK's and I believe went on to form the RADAR we use now.

No it was not actually,allied radar was much better - German radar may have been better engineered, but that made it more difficult to modify and upgrade. Also allied radar operators were much better trained. Also the allies even managed to install radar into a shell - the proximity fuse.

Allied radar was not better than German radar. German ground stations were superior but, however, the allies were better at miniaturization of electronics by war's end.

As far as technical capability, the German radars were better but, they were huge. Allied radar was cheaper and easier to manage, requiring less power.

Please read a bit about it. On cdvandt.org you can find allied technical reports about German radar.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Progress that left no footprint at all??? No paper chain at all, no evidence, no eyewitness and no physical proof. This is getting ridiculous. The V-weapons used up a fraction of the resources that a fully-funded and successful Nazi nuclear programme would have used. The former was detected via Enigma decrypts and other intelligence years before the first V-1 or V-2 was launched. No sign at all of the latter. I wonder why?

Just because you claim there was no evidence, this doesn't make it so. There is paperwork. Allied intelligence discussing it, and eyewitness testimony. All these things HAVE BEEN CITED EARLIER IN THIS THREAD, many on PAGE 1 so it's not my fault if you didn't bother to read them.

Unfortunately it looks like you missed a good deal of the information, but JUST BECAUSE YOU EITHER DID NOT READ THIS INFORMATION, OR CARED NOT TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST.

Now, please attempt to add something, or just leave the thread.

Sy.gunson has given you an excellent place to start, with numerous citations. I suggest you go back to page 1 and begin collating the citations given in this thread. Or maybe I'll do it for you, so that you can't sit here twiddling your thumbs and falsely claiming that there is "no evidence" when this is patently untrue, and easily confirmed by merely looking at the thread so far.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Progress that left no footprint at all??? No paper chain at all, no evidence, no eyewitness and no physical proof. This is getting ridiculous. The V-weapons used up a fraction of the resources that a fully-funded and successful Nazi nuclear programme would have used. The former was detected via Enigma decrypts and other intelligence years before the first V-1 or V-2 was launched. No sign at all of the latter. I wonder why?

Just because you claim there was no evidence, this doesn't make it so. There is paperwork. Allied intelligence discussing it, and eyewitness testimony. All these things HAVE BEEN CITED EARLIER IN THIS THREAD, many on PAGE 1 so it's not my fault if you didn't bother to read them.

Unfortunately it looks like you missed a good deal of the information, but JUST BECAUSE YOU EITHER DID NOT READ THIS INFORMATION, OR CARED NOT TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST.

Now, please attempt to add something, or just leave the thread.

Sy.gunson has given you an excellent place to start, with numerous citations. I suggest you go back to page 1 and begin collating the citations given in this thread. Or maybe I'll do it for you, so that you can't sit here twiddling your thumbs and falsely claiming that there is "no evidence" when this is patently untrue, and easily confirmed by merely looking at the thread so far.

edit on 26-2-2013 by HattoriHanzou because: (no reason given)

I did read the information but unfortunately it made me laugh so hard that I had difficulty formulating a coherent response. None of the so-called evidence stands up. Not one piece of it. There isn't a single verifiable document, piece of evidence, eyewitness account or indeed nut or bolt in existence that says that there was a Nazi nuclear weapon. I have seen a great of ill-founded and largely baseless speculation, but not one thing.
The main base for German nuclear research in the latter part of the war was a place called Hechingen. British and US invesxtigators descended upon Hechingen in the immediate aftermath of the war and dicovered a mass of documents and research. Theye did not however discover a bomb, or the components to a bomb, or even a plan for a bomb.
I direct you to an excellent account of the British scientific efforts to find out if there was a Nazi atomic bomb programme in Most Secret War by RV Jones, specifically Chapter 48, entitled Nuclear Energy. Professor Jones concluded that the German nuclear bomb programme was a failure.
Oh and no, I will not leave this thread. I have to say that I dislike your attitude.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Then you admit you lied when you said that there was no evidence. It's not anybody's fault but your own that you were laughing when you should have been paying attention.

I have reported you for disrupting this thread, because your claims about whether or not any of this evidence stands up are not useful or credible by your own admission. Continually lying and changing your story is not a good way to deal with being caught out.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

Then you admit you lied when you said that there was no evidence. It's not anybody's fault but your own that you were laughing when you should have been paying attention.

I have reported you for disrupting this thread,

Wait...what? He didn't lie. There is no evidence. I stand with AngryCymraeg on this one. There is no evidence, just supposition. Maybe I'll report you for trying to stifle people who disagree with your flimsy supposition. Maybe you should report me too.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

Then you admit you lied when you said that there was no evidence. It's not anybody's fault but your own that you were laughing when you should have been paying attention.

I have reported you for disrupting this thread, because your claims about whether or not any of this evidence stands up are not useful or credible by your own admission. Continually lying and changing your story is not a good way to deal with being caught out.

edit on 26-2-2013 by HattoriHanzou because: (no reason given)

There is no evidence. Not one scrap, not one iota, not one scintilla of evidence that the Nazis had a nuclear bomb. That is what I have stated. That is what I have stuck to. I have not changed my position on this. I have not lied. I have admitted to laughing a lot, but this must be some strange new definition of "lying" that you have created.
I have just reported you by the way for bullying and unreasonable behaviour.

Originally posted by Foundryman

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

Then you admit you lied when you said that there was no evidence. It's not anybody's fault but your own that you were laughing when you should have been paying attention.

I have reported you for disrupting this thread,

Wait...what? He didn't lie. There is no evidence. I stand with AngryCymraeg on this one. There is no evidence, just supposition. Maybe I'll report you for trying to stifle people who disagree with your flimsy supposition. Maybe you should report me too.

There is evidence. It has been cited in this thread, particularly by Sy.gunderson who has done quite a bit of work to provide citations. Whether or not this evidence is useful to you, in your own personal judgement, that is another question, but it is a flat lie to state that there is no evidence. In fact, all one needs to do is read this thread to realize that there is lots of evidence.

I think part of the problem we are experiencing in this thread, is the decline in understanding of the English language. Some people believe that evidence is the same thing as irrefutable proof. They confuse the terms, unfortunately, and this is a sad statement on the quality of education, the shallow nature of discourse, and the lack of dictionary ownership all rolled up into one.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
There is evidence.

No, there is not - just claims that there is "evidence" but when that "evidence" is examined it turns out is is just silly claims not based on any fact. - Just look at some reviews of that "evidence"

A close examination by myself and other historians of the Manhattan Project have found many of the claims in Mr. Hydrick's book to be without foundation. The main argument that captured German uranium taken from U-Boat 134 in May of 1945 ended up in the Little Boy bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima never happened. The best evidence to prove the case comes from General Leslie R. Groves' Appointment Book of August 13, 1945 (a week after Hiroshima) where in a telephone call a Navy admiral asks if the material from the German submarine was of any use to the program. General Groves "advised it wasn't as yet but it will be utilized." This would seem to undermine the major claim of the book.

and

The linchpin of Hydrick's convoluted theories about the bombs involves his claim that the infra-red detonators that came from the U-234 German submarine were used in the implosion device. He describes the "detonator chimneys" that Russ mentioned in his book along with the use of "hypodermics" to vent radiation from the plutonium core and that somehow these were used to "allow the free flow of light waves throughout the device." He continues, "...the new system allowed waves-including infrared waves-to race at the speed of light through the "detonator chimneys" and "hypodermics" to the other infrared fuses to "simultaneously" ignite them all" and these all "...were used to compress the plutonium core at the speed of light and thus creating a very powerful explosion." This is absolute nonsense and shows a complete lack of even the most basic knowledge of how these weapons functioned, or for that matter, even a rudimentary knowledge of physics itself!
The "detonator chimneys" as Russ described them, were actually nothing other than small lengths of brass tubing that were glued to the outer surface of each explosive lens in the implosion device. Each of the 32 Model 1773 Exploding Bridge Wire (EBW) detonators was then inserted into a chimney since the sole purpose of these were simply to properly align each EBW in the exact center of the outer surface of each lens. The "hypodermics" mentioned by Hydrick had a completely different, and equally benign, purpose. The stainless steel hypodermic tube was carefully inserted through a hole in the outer Dural shell that housed the implosion components and then pushed down far enough in between the lenses and the inner explosive charges so that it touched the so-called "nuclear pit" at the very center of the implosion device. A 0.040 inch diameter manganese wire was then inserted into this hypodermic tube and withdrawn every six hours to check to see if it had acquired any induced radioactivity. If it had acquired any, this meant that the delicate and tiny Polonium-Beryllium initiator ("Urchin") inside the center of the plutonium core had somehow ruptured due to rough handling during the assembly process and was emitting neutrons which would cause the plutonium to pre-detonate resulting in a fizzle, or failure of the implosion process.

www.amazon.com...=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R390K0OZ3WLJS2

reply to post by hellobruce


By simply repeating yourself that there is not evidence you are hurting your own credibility. Trotting out a few quotes from a pet expert does not invalidate the evidence presented so far in this thread.


"Hitler und die Bombe" (Rottenburg: Kopp Verlag, 2002), pp. 110-114

"Hitlers Bombe (Hitler's Bomb)" - ISBN 3-421-05809-1 Rainer Karlsch

webfairy.org... "Reich of the Black Sun" Joseph Farrell

"Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9" December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457 - www.archives.gov... Noted on web page at archives.gov - "This record group may include material that is security-classified."

"Secrets By The Thousands" Harper's Magazine, December, 1946 Pg 329 greyfalcon.us...

"Monsanto Report" NARA G371 Weinberg and Nordheim, Nov 8, 1945

"Hitler's Uranium Club: The Secret Recordings at Farm Hall" Bernstein and Cassidy, 2000 ISBN-13: 978-0387950891

"Nuclear Weapons History: Japan's Wartime Bomb Projects Revealed" Deborah Shapley Science, 13 Jan 1978, p 152-157 www.fortfreedom.org...

"Japan's Atomic Bomb" History Channel, www.youtube.com...

web.archive.org...://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/dept/Courses/E-24/E-24Projects/Krumme1.pdf

sy.gunson's posts listing some of his sources: www.abovetopsecret.com... www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please stop attempting to derail this thread with your false claims that evidence has not been presented.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Thnak you HattoriHanzou for your reply. I have looked on the US and UK national archive services for any trace, even a reference of the documnet cited in the OP. There are copies of other documents released on 1st October 1978, but nothing of the document referred to in the OP which seems strange to me as digitisation would be in batches.

Have you seen a copy? If so, please share. If not, then how can you be so sure the OP is true, especially when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

Regards

reply to post by paraphi


Please refer to my post directly above. The records in that group are not available in digital form, however, you can order them from NARA on the page cited above. It costs money.

Perhaps you may have luck appealing to Joseph Farrell directly, he's quite a friendly chap and he may be able to provide you with a copy. He cites the record in his book so he may have a copy. It is not illegal to copy declassified records.

reply to post by buddhasystem


buddhasystem, I was with you regarding the Germans use of uranium and learned something new.

But got a bit lost with your comment " It may never be known whether your liver is receiving signals from a distant neutron star, on a subspace frequency, and dictates to you what to write on ATS. However, my opinion is that it's pretty freaking impossible. " in reply to my conclusion. "Whether they managed to build one will probably never be known".

There was a reported conversation, possibly true, but I have no proof, that a senior Nazi laughed at the thought of an atomic bomb, I think in relation to the possible missile strike on the US.

Was there not some sort of atomic pile that the US army took to pieces at the end of the war, and where there not some unexpected detours by the Allies as they headed towards the Russians?

Seriously was everything found brought out into the open or was anything kept secret? The US would certainly not have wanted any information that could have lead to them making an atomic bomb to have fallen into Russian hands.

As I said before I doubt if we will ever know exactly all the facts of the 2nd WW, which makes the speculation so much fun.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Please stop cherry-picking quotes and using sources of dubious authenticity. Can I point out that no credible historian believes that the Nazis had any kind of viable nuclear weapon?

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
sy.gunson's posts listing some of his sources:

Except of course one of those bits of so called "evidence" is a link to a non existent website.

But that is ok, as the "evidence" for a Japanese or German atomic bomb is exactly the same as the existence of their actual atomic bomb ie. nothing at all!

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Please stop cherry-picking quotes and using sources of dubious authenticity. Can I point out that no credible historian believes that the Nazis had any kind of viable nuclear weapon?

The authenticity of any of these listed sources is best determined by each individual. By making the claim that they are not authentic, without having even read them, you hurt your own credibility.

A convenient list of the evidence cited so far in this thread:www.abovetopsecret.com...

Your judgement of the usefulness of these records is noted, but I hope you have not mistaken your doubt of their veracity for proof that they do not exist at all, which was your claim a bit earlier.

You're repeating yourself now. It's not useful to the discussion.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
A convenient list of the evidence cited so far in this thread

Which shows you never even bothered to look at that "evidence", nor did the person posting it, as some of it is a link to a webpage that does not even exist.... but apparently according to you that must mean that is is still evidence!