Israeli PM offers conditional settlements freeze

Source: www.rawstory.com...

I must say that this is tiny bit of good news in a situation with little. However, a settlement freeze should happen anyway and it shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip. With that being said, Israel has promised - and failed to deliver- settlement freezes before.

It's like a robber or terrorist saying they won't harm you, if only you not try to escape or become a "hero". It doesn't make them right, simply because they are giving you such an offer. Furthermore, there is nothing to really hold Israel to this promise, as they aren't really known to play fair.

All in all, I believe this to be a very cunning and shrewed political move. As before this "offer" (if you can even call it that), it was obvious, even to Israel-apologists, that Israel was using this the stifle peace talks, however if the Palestinians refuse, then they will look like the ones stalling the peace process. This is simply a political move to shift blame away from Israel for stifling the peace process and Israel can always go back on their word, while counting on the MSM to ignore it.


--airspoon

They want from PA to recognize them as Jewish state in offer to settlement FREEZE for few months. Not to stop settlement building only freeze it for few months. After another few months they will start building again and they will demand another thing. Just blackmailing.
Also PA should never ever recognize Israel as Jewish state. No one, no country should.

Interestng strategy. If the PA was foolish enough to bite, then they immediately lose. If they choose not to take up the offer, then they become the Obstructionists. Very clever indeed. Also rather underhanded.

reply to post by rogerstigers


yes and no

The Palestinians recognize Israel as a state, but refuse to recognise it as a Jewish one - and with good reason.

Israel is not the Vatican. It should be a secularist state like 99% of the rest of the world.

And most people would understand this.


You wouldn't call America a Christian Nation, no matter how loud and stupid some people are about that, and Israel should be no different.

reply to post by ghostsoldier


Agreed, but as the OP points out.. the proposal is for them to be recognized as a JEWISH state. That is the underhanded part.

reply to post by rogerstigers


Oh yeah for sure its underhanded.

I can see where it looked like I might of been being argumentative, I just think this isn't necessarily going to work in Israels favor - and may in fact have the opposite effect. But perhaps I overestimate peoples and institutions intelligence and ethics.

I'd say this is just as much an exercise in domestic politics for Netyanyahu that anything else.

I can not believe that they even asked for this. It is such a slap in the face. Freeze to be recognized as a state...a Jewish state. And then resume building a few months down the road. It really is a shrewd negotiating trick.

I think the world will see it for what it is. They don't care about peace.. They are dead set they are going to hold out until the ultimately get their way.

For people who know so much you seem to understand very little...

This "shrewed move" is a move that is meant to allow Netanyahu to continue the talks without committing political suicide.

You people fail to understand that the people who support settlements are all right wing, and there is a lot of pressure on him not to give in, not to look weak, as the head of the right wing party.

This continued building is so insignificant, so unimportant, and both sides know it, but both sides are stuck in a lock- The Palestinians can't continue the talks without a freeze due to political pressures from within, and the Israelis can't continue the talks without building due to the same reasons.

It's all politics, I don't know how you took it and turned into some kind of evil Israeli trick..

And as for Israel being a Jewish state? Are you freaking kidding me? Is this a joke or are you guys really that blind? Are we forgetting the fact that half of the Arab nations have the word Islam or Arab in their title?

God.. Deny ignorance, don't embrace it..

Oh, and BTW, this recognition of Israel as a Jewish state MEANS NOTHING! It's a formality! It's nothing! So why won't they just do it and be done with it?

Ignorant people write ignorant things.

They ignore for instance the fact that during the 10 months 'freeze' , Abbas refused to start negotiating with Israel. It was only at the end of the freeze that he did so.
Why? To extort for yet another freeze, while portraying Israel as the side who sabotage the negotiations.

They ignore the fact that Abbas is on borrowed time. Why?
Because without the cooperation between IDF and PA security forces, the Palestinian authority don't stand a chance against the power of Hamas in the west bank. A Palestinian independence in the west bank means Abbbas will be completely taken out of power, exactly as happened in Gaza.

Furthermore, Abbas can't bring the Gaza strip to the peace talks, since he has zero control over it, thus Israel will be stuck with TWO Palestinian states.

Another problem is coming from far west, with a weak and naive American president, who believe that putting pressure on Israel alone, and bowing to Arab kings and kiss arse to Islam will bring forward better results for the peace talks.

reply to post by Eliad

Oh, and BTW, this recognition of Israel as a Jewish state MEANS NOTHING!

You're wrong, it may mean little to Israelis, but on the other side of the fence it basically negates a principal argument of the Palestinians. It would be to cede their argument.

This "shrewed move" is a move that is meant to allow Netanyahu to continue the talks without committing political suicide.

I'm not buying that one. This appears to be shrewed a political move to turn the tables on a break-down of peace talks. It's a way that the Israelis can easily say that it is the Palestinians who are stalling peace talks, especially sense the halt on settlements is temporary. Even if what you are saying is accurate, it would only prove the point that many Israelis don't want peace. Either way, it shows Israel's contempt for peace. If it doesn't mean anything, as you say, then why should it matter so much to Israel?

Come on Eliad, lets deny ignorance here.

You people fail to understand that the people who support settlements are all right wing, and there is a lot of pressure on him not to give in, not to look weak, as the head of the right wing party.

Which is telling in its own right. This just backs up the claim that many of us have been making all along, many Israelis don't want or have no interest in peace with the Palestinians.

And as for Israel being a Jewish state? Are you freaking kidding me? Is this a joke or are you guys really that blind? Are we forgetting the fact that half of the Arab nations have the word Islam or Arab in their title?

If these nations were behaving in manner even remotely close to Israel's actions against the Palestinians, then that too would be just as condemnable. The issue isn't isn't as black and white as other countries. Furthermore, it might be wrong in these Arab countries, so why don't you start a thread on it and I'll weigh the arguments, then weigh in.

Each region, country and situation is different. If another country has the same background as Israel and Palestine do, then the variables may be set in a way that this would be wrong. However, the Israel-Palestinian problem seems to be unique.

Regardless, this is a thread on Israel in regards to Palestine, their illegal settlements, their illegal behavior (international and natural) and the seemingly determed intent to wipe the Palestinians out. If you feel that other countries are wrong in whatever they decide to do, start a thread on it and point me to that thread, I'll be happy to weigh in.

The point here, is that Israel shouldn;t be having any settlements, thus shouldn't be using a temp halt on those settlements as a bargaining chip in peace talks. Could you imagine if that was any other country or group of peoples, particularly the Palestinians? There would be UN resolutions against them, sanctions and possibly military action, as they don't have the US in their back pocket to block every UN resolution. Instead, it's Israel, who by the way influences the MSM and US government, the world's only super-power, so it is then some how valid.

Come on, don't be ignorant here (or exploit other's ingorance).


--airspoon

--airspoon

Israel has as much right to exist as any country in the ME all the borders were created by the European Powers between 1918 and 1948, every country in the world owes their current borders to the European Powers, if they weren't colonised or created by them their neighbors were, every country in the world,

But a Jewish state that is literally a slap in the face of the indigenous Muslim population as others have said a PR negotiating ploy.

This pic says it all.
Israel agreeing to temporarily stop occupying more Palestinian land is a huge joke....but no-ones laughing.

reply to post by Eliad


The Arab countries are not operating under a democracy.

This is a fundamental truth which most people fail to remember, and which leads to the
fruitless debates over why they are so "oppressive" compared to the USA.

Israel is, according to their own constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion.

Therefore, yes, it is absurd to be "recognized" as a Jewish state unless they renounce their own Declaration of Independence and become a fascist state.

Deny ignorance, indeed.

reply to post by airspoon


EDIT- Sorry for length, I'll try shortening it a bit so it's easier to read...

You're wrong, it may mean little to Israelis, but on the other side of the fence it basically negates a principal argument of the Palestinians. It would be to cede their argument.

What is that principle argument?
What difference does it make? I mean it's not as if we're waiting for them to call us Jewish to start being Jewish..
We already are Jewish.

If it doesn't mean anything, as you say, then why should it matter so much to Israel?

This has everything to do with politics, this "recognition of Israel" is symbolic, both leaders know that no matter what the other side says, the situation on the ground won't change.
I won't be surprised if this whole thing was secretly choreographed so that both leaders look strong..

It's called politics.

So now the Israeli public is led to think: 1) They don't want to give it to us. 2) It must be important. 3) We must have it.
And voila- Netanyahu can put the freeze back on the settlements without looking weak.

I'm not buying that one.

Let's make a bet, you and I, I say this is nothing but a dance between two dogs, each trying to look the strong, and this will not stop the negotiations. I don't know if Abbas will actually declare he recognizes Israel as a Jewish state, but he will do something to make Netanyahu freeze again...
They said they're giving this a month, right? If they're still talking a month from now- I win, if they're not- you win.
The prize? I don't know, I'll build a statue of you or something

Which is telling in its own right. This just backs up the claim that many of us have been making all along, many Israelis don't want or have no interest in peace with the Palestinians.

Oh it is telling. It tells that most of the people in the settlements are right wing, but they're hardly most of the Israeli people, and they're hardly most of the right wing..
And it doesn't mean they don't want peace, they just care more about the settlements.. They just don't want to have to leave their homes.. I don't want them there, but I can understand why they don't want to leave.. After all it's our government that put them there..

This is a classic "Government wants something, then government changes its mind, on the expense of its people".. The settlements are a failure, they can not exist in today's politics and world order and they're soon to be evacuated, it's just that nobody wants to be the one that tells them that..

if these nations were behaving in manner even remotely close to Israel's actions against the Palestinians, then that too would be just as condemnable.

Oh really?
Do I really need to go there?
Women not allowed to walk dressed however they want?
Death sentences by stoning?
Children dying from lashing punishments?
And all these actually come from the religion itself!
What the fudge does Judaism have to do with this conflict?! Come on, you're a Jew, tell me, where does it say "Persecute thy neighbor?"?

This conflict is not religious... This is Israelis Vs. Arabs, not Jews Vs. Muslims.. Even in Israel, which has been Jewish since 1948, it is the Christian Arabs who are having problems- Other Christians are doing just fine, as are the Druze, and the Baha'i, and anyone who is not an Arab.. Still sad, I know, but even those walls are breaking slowly..

So come on, get real, this argument is thin..

The point here, is that Israel shouldn;t be having any settlements, thus shouldn't be using a temp halt on those settlements as a bargaining chip in peace talks.

I completely agree.
But this wasn't your point, you just fell back to this point because you couldn't seriously tell me why it is such a big deal that Israel is Jewish when many Arab countries are Muslim, and act accordingly.
I mean, we don't force the women to walk all covered with long skirts and a wig, like the orthodox Jews do.. We don't force the men to grow beards, we don't have punishments that date back to the creation of our religion..

We just want this to be a home for any Jew that's out there and feels out of place.

Come on, don't be ignorant here (or exploit other's ingorance).

I'm not, I just have a different opinion than yours. I never said you're ignorant, I just think you're missing some parts of the puzzle.
Being the only one who actually lives here, I'm probably the least ignorant on these matters, but I'm still open to learn more.

reply to post by OllyP


This map is a huge joke... Only the UN devision and the 67' borders are correct.

reply to post by thegoodearth


Makes no difference, they're allowed to exist... So if Israel was a monarchy, or a dictatorship it would have been okay to be Jewish?

And Israel was founded as a home for the Jews, it has been Jewish since its inception.. The only thing different is that propaganda is now making a big deal out of it..
Well it's not a big deal, ask any Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Druze, Baha'i and Atheist who is not an Arab! They don't feel persecuted, because this has nothing to do with religion.. This is not Jews Vs. Muslims, it's Israelis vs. Arabs.
And what's the big deal about our Jewish state? We don't force anybody who's not Jewish to do anything Jewish, we don't make them dress up on Purim or light candles on Hanuka, we don't have cockamamie rules like stoning and lashes, we don't force the women to dress modest..
What's so Jewish about the Jewish state of Israel?
All we want is them to recognize it as the home of the Jews.. That's it.. That's the whole point of having Israel- Somewhere the Jews can call home.
Doesn't mean that the minute they're recognize Israel as Jewish we'll start deporting everybody..

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by thegoodearth

 

Makes no difference, they're allowed to exist... So if Israel was a monarchy, or a dictatorship it would have been okay to be Jewish?


Well it's not a big deal, ask any Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Druze, Baha'i and Atheist who is not an Arab! They don't feel persecuted, because this has nothing to do with religion.. This is not Jews Vs. Muslims, it's Israelis vs. Arabs.


And what's the big deal about our Jewish state? We don't force anybody who's not Jewish to do anything Jewish, we don't make them dress up on Purim or light candles on Hanuka, we don't have cockamamie rules like stoning and lashes, we don't force the women to dress modest..
What's so Jewish about the Jewish state of Israel?

All we want is them to recognize it as the home of the Jews.. That's it.. That's the whole point of having Israel- Somewhere the Jews can call home.
Doesn't mean that the minute they're recognize Israel as Jewish we'll start deporting everybody..

edit on 13-10-2010 by Eliad because: (no reason given)

Wait.
Are you really serious?
So, in your reasoning, it is perfectly democratic to make a people swear an oath to a particular religion (orthodox Judiasm) for citizenship in a democratic country? A democratic country which has many different types of Judiasm practiced, as well as Islam and Christianity.

And, you have facts to base your claims that it's no big deal.... ?

So ,therefore, by your reasoning, we could ask all American citizens to swear an oath to Islam. Or Christianity.
After all, according to you, it's no big deal. We have the word "God" in our Pledge of Allegiance, right?????

P.S.---I'm glad to hear your assurances that the Orthodox Jews in Israel will not persecute anyone upon implementation of this oath.

_________________

Palestinian Officials Offers Trade:
We'll Call Israel Whatever They Want, Pal. Official Insists
Recognition of Israel as ‘Jewish State’ > for 1967 Borders ☺

source

_________________

reply to post by Eliad


Can you back that up?
I wouldn't mind seeing a link to your version of the map. Would be interesting to compare it to whats available through a search. (The map I linked to is the only one I could find)

reply to post by thegoodearth


Wrong again.. Here's why:

First of all get your facts straight- Nobody's asked anyone to swear an oath to orthodox Judaism, the oath is to a Jewish Israeli state, and this is only a suggestion for a law, it's not a law yet.

Secondly I think it's an idiotic law.

Thirdly because this is a democratic country this law would never pass second and third hearing, it won't pass the supreme high court.. It's just there to make noise.. These are difficult political times for Netanyahu, and he needed to make some right wing noise.. Dirty politics, nothing more.
Don't tell me this never happens in America, what with your don't ask don't tell thing, I'm sure there are a lot of idiotic laws being suggested in your senate, some even get passed..

Why, is it democratic to not allow a mosque to be built too close to 9/11? No. Would have it been built there were it still the Bush administration? I really hope so..

And I do have facts to base my claims, I live in Israel, I know it. No, it's no big deal that it's Jewish, and always has been. Even this law isn't about Judaism, it isn't about religion, it's about swearing an oath to the state.
Still stupid.

See, this is what I don't get- I'm not religious, I'm not being extreme, I'm very reasonable in my opinions, so why is it that people like you always assume the worst? Never judged by my actual words, only by the direction they're pointing..

Grow up.

P.S- Who the f$#k said anything about orthodox Jews, what the hell are you talking about? What is this obsession with orthodox Jews? Are they hiding in your closet? Under your bed? Making it hard for you to sleep? Are they coming through the vents to kill you? Seriously.. Cut the bull# out..

reply to post by OllyP


upload.wikimedia.org...
This is the map of Jewish settlement prior to 1948 taken from wiki- Notice that it's larger, plus what's inaccurate in your map is that the Palestinians weren't spread all over the rest of the place.. They were also living in sporadic settlements and villages.. As for the southern area, it wasn't inhabitated by anyone but nomads..

As for the last map-
upload.wikimedia.org...

The red is the settlements, the rest belongs to the Palestinians.