Democrats do not equal Socialists!

I am so fed up with hearing such a mentally debilitating argument coming from the moronic brainwashed masses of the Right. The whole premise that Democratic policies are equivalent to Socialist policies is laughable at best and dangerous at worst. America has never had any successful Socialists in our nation’s history nor have we ever had a prominent Socialist movement unlike the rest of the Western world.

You can scream from the roof tops whatever you want, it doesn't make it the truth, it simply sounds like McCarthy style demagogy and simply you sound like an idiot to anyone outside of your cage of screaming chimps.

But are you entirely to blame? You do have the media pushing that whole thing about Democrats = Socialism thing, all the Tea Party people holding up signs that claim they know what Socialism means and others listen to them like they have more than a peanut rattling around inside their skull.

I'm sorry if I sound so harsh but you must understand that what your doing is vicious and maniacal rhetoric which you use to try and alienate a group of people you deem as a threat to the nation and a political terrorist. It's okay to oppose Socialism on principle and on practice, that's why we have more than one ideology in the world, but to say everything Left of your beliefs are Socialism is just ludicrous.




I would like to introduce you to the Classical Left-Right Spectrum. It shows where the different ideologies fall on the political spectrum from 'The Right' to 'The Left'. Let me walk you through this, real..... slow.....

The Democratic Party has three main political ideologies within its ranks, some smaller factions such as Conservatives and Libertarians exist as well.

So let us analyze the 3 main ideologies of the party.

American Liberalism

In general liberalism is anti-socialist, when socialism means state ownership of the basic means of production and distribution, because American liberals doubt that bases for political opposition and freedom can survive when all power is vested in the state. In line with the general pragmatic, empirical basis of liberalism, American liberal philosophy embraces the idea that if substantial abundance and equality of opportunity can be achieved through a system of mixed enterprise, then there is no need for a rigid and oppressive bureaucracy. Some liberal public intellectuals have, since the 1950s, moved further toward the general position that markets, when appropriately regulated, can provide better solutions than top-down planning and central control. Paul Krugman argued that, in hitherto-state-dominated functions such as nation-scale energy distribution and telecommunications, marketizations can improve efficiency dramatically. He also defended a monetary policy -- inflation targeting -- as a solution to Japan's economic slump by saying that it "most nearly approaches the usual goal of modern stabilization policy, which is to provide adequate demand in a clean, unobtrusive way that does not distort the allocation of resources." (These distortions are of a kind that war-time and post-war Keynesian economists had accepted as an inevitable byproduct of fiscal policies that selectively reduced certain consumer taxes and directed spending toward government-managed stimulus projects—even where these economists theorized at a contentious distance from some of Keynes's own, more hands-off, positions, which tended to emphasize stimulating of business investment.) Thomas Friedman is a liberal journalist who, like Paul Krugman, generally defends free trade as more likely to improve the lot of both rich and poor countries.

(I know it is a very large quote so I apologize)

Progressivism

Progressivism in the United States is a broadly-based reform movement that reached its height early in the 20th century and is generally considered to be middle class and reformist in nature. It arose as a response to the vast changes brought by modernization, such as the growth of large corporations and railroads, and fears of corruption in American politics. In the 21st century self-styled progressives continue to embrace concepts such as environmentalism and social justice. Social progressivism, the view that governmental practices ought to be adjusted as society evolves, forms the ideological basis for many American progressives.

Third Way

The Third Way rejects both laissez-faire and socialist approaches to economic governance, but chiefly stresses technological development, education, and competitive mechanisms to pursue economic ends according to the Democratic Leadership Council. One of its central aims is to protect the modern welfare state through reforms that maintain its economic integrity.

Now let's examine Socialism

Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.

In a socialist economic system, production is carried out by a free association of workers to directly maximize use-values (instead of indirectly producing use-value through maximizing exchange-values), through coordinated planning of investment decisions, distribution of surplus, and the means of production. Socialism is a set of social and economic arrangements based on a post-monetary system of calculation, such as labor time, energy units or calculation-in-kind; at least for the factors of production.

TO FULLY UNDERSTAND EACH I ENCOURAGE YOU TO VISIT THE LINKS PROVIDED




Alright now it is time to review the Classical Left-Right Spectrum.

The Center : Centrism, Third Way
Center-Left : Social Democracy, Social Liberalism, Christian Left

If you visited the links of American Liberalism and Progressivism you would realize that it clearly states they are both linked to Social Liberalism. Which is a Center-left ideology and the party has a Third Way current which is Centrist.

Let us review what we have learned. The American Democrats are Social Liberals and Social Liberalism clearly separates itself from Socialism in almost every way. While still advocating for Regulations, Progressive Taxation, Social Justice and the Welfare State, the Socialists have an extremely large difference. Socialists believe in the workers ownership of the means of production and destroying the monetary system to base it around labor time, energy units or calculation-in-time.

The Democrats believe in the private ownership of the means of production and keeping the current monetary based system. This is the key fundamental difference between Socialism and Social/American Liberalism.

If you do believe that the Democrats and American Liberals are centered around the government owning everything you are confusing two completely different ideologies, you are claiming that what is known as Statism is Socialism, which is the equivalent of calling Libertarianism as Fascism or Conservatism as Communism. You would never make that large of a mistake on such mainline and heavily supported belief systems yet it is perfectly acceptable to be as ignorant to say Socialism is Statism?




If you have not learned anything by the end of this thread then you are hopelessly lost in your own delusional world and anything anyone says to you is irrelevant because you are dead-set on believing whatever you make up in your head or hear from the MSM.

So what is the socio-economic system called that favors:

-Cartelized centrally planned banking
-Unlimited war with everyone
-Unlimited welfare handouts for everyone
-Cartelized publicly funded school systems
-Cartelized financial sectors
-Cartelized and subsidized shipping and distribution networks
-Cartelized agriculture
-Cartelized industrial production

Since this is what we currently have, and the Democrats have done nothing to change this, I have to assume they are in favor of it.

So, let me get this straight, when you state common ownership of the means of production.

Does that mean that everyone's ability to produce is shared?

What I am saying is let us say my labor and your labor Misoir, is pooled and I get the same percentage share of your labor as my own?

If so, I do not like socialism, because I am a hard worker and very proficient at what I do.

Your response.

edit to add- be back later, going to see if any more my ideas are talked about, later

so·cial·ism
   /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principle

socialism (ˈsəʊʃəˌlɪzəm) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
1. Compare capitalism an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels
2. any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system
3. (in Leninist theory) a transitional stage after the proletarian revolution in the development of a society from capitalism to communism: characterized by the distribution of income according to work rather than need

socialism:

* a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
* an economic system based on state ownership of capital

Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources.

Any of various political philosophies that support social and economic equality, collective decision-making, and public control of productive capital and natural resources, as advocated by socialists; The socialist political philosophies as a group, including Marxism, libertarian socialism.

refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which the ownership of industry and the distribution of wealth are determined by the state or by agents of the state or the collective. ...


social justice is socialism
wealth reditribution is socialsm
governmental control over social and ecomonic systems is socialism

and the left aka democraitc party is implmentting these principals and let us not forget the time magazine come that says: WE ARE ALL SOCIALSTS NOW!,

now i ask you who can argue with time magazine

Wow, I feel kind of like I'm at a Fox news fan club meeting! Is Mr Beck going to show?

Seriously, the left right paradigm is getting so abused here. And the funny part is that, politically, it seems to only exist in the hearts and minds of citizens because in Washington it's all about the new boss being exactly like the old boss.

I paid taxes when Bush was in office. I pay taxes now that Obama is in office. I pay taxes because that's the price I pay to live in the US and to enjoy the life living here affords me.

All the anarchistic platitudes in the world won't change the fact that we all have to ante up and pay the house if we want to sit at the table.

You're absolutely right. Democrats do not equal socialism, but the socialists have hijacked the Democratic Party the same way the Fundamentalists once hijacked the Republican Party. Both these events threw their respective parties into a tailspin. The fundamentalists have nowhere near as much influence in the Republican Party as they once did. Democrats can recover their party if they reject the socialist agenda and return to the center left. Right now Democrats have nothing to run on. What Democrat candidate today is running on health care? on the stimulus package? Is anyone up there for re-election running on the issues? I haven't heard one Democrat run on issues. It's all about attacking the other guy.

Stop worrying about the Republicans and pay attention to saving your own party. You might just help save the country as well.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


No, we would not all pull the same share income. But rather we make our income in a different way from the system that is used now. Let me give you some quotes so it comes from someone with true knowledge into it.

Time Based Currency

In economics, a time-based currency is an alternative currency where the unit of exchange is the man-hour.

Some time-based currencies value everyone’s contributions equally. One hour equals one service credit. In these systems, one person volunteers to work for an hour for another person; thus, they are credited with one hour, which they can redeem for an hour of service from another volunteer. Critics charge this would lead to fewer doctors or dentists. Other systems, such as Ithaca Hours, let doctors and dentists charge more hours per hour.

Calculation in Kind

Calculation in kind is a type of accounting based on physical magnitudes and physical quantities rather than a common unit of accounting for economic calculation. Calculation in kind, or valueless calculation, is often described as the form of calculation that would supersede monetary calculation in a moneyless socialist economy. As a replacement for monetary calculation, calculation in kind would dispense of an object's exchange-value inherent to all commodities in monetary economies, so that only an object's use value would remain as the basis for economic accounting.

Those work at least for the modes of production.

That is how people would earn their income.

reply to post by mnemeth1


I don't see the issue with most of those things you listed, that is pretty mainstream in all reality. It doesn't make it Socialism as Socialism opposes the state.

It's pretty much any ideology that believes in a government.

What schuyler said....

The Dems and Reps have been hijacked by sinister agendas.

reply to post by Misoir


Hmm....... Radical Left Wing Democrats Preach ........


The Redistribution of Wealth
Unchecked Growth of Goverment Agencies and Programs
Socialized Medicine
Goverment Economic Assistance
Propaganda used to Condition the Masses to Legislative Behavior Modification
Weathly People are EVIL



Guess what ? Your WRONG ........

reply to post by schuyler


You would argue this until you are dead because in your mind you are always right, always! Facts? Who needs them I have my own opinions and those are facts! Not once, NOT ONCE, did I see anyone provide a thorough and well thought out counter response other than saying, "They are Socialists!".

This exactly what I was talking about in the first 3 paragraphs of the OP, you fit it perfectly every word within it. Give me a real argument and I will happily argue back with facts, you want a war of opinion is all. Because you have nothing more than the inner workings of a propaganda filled mind.

Have a nice time sounding like McCarthy the rest of your life because you are brainwashed. It's worthless to even try and disprove anything you think because in your mind you will always be right.

reply to post by Hefficide


Well, think a lot of us are sick of the table.
Why do we the people have to give foreign government our labor?
Why do we the people have to give the IMF and the Fed a HUGE portion of our labor?
Why do we the people have to give the government unions and other affiliated unions a portion of our labor?
etc
etc
etc
etc

When the table has been rigged by the house, that is when old Kenny Rogers and I say that we know it is time to fold em, know when to walk away, know WHEN TO RUN!

Speaking of country music analogies, that reminds me of a great letter to the president by Charlie Daniels-newsbusters.org...

reply to post by Misoir


You received my argument to the Contrary of your Claims , and I am waiting for YOUR Response Professer .....

Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
reply to post by Misoir

 

Hmm....... Radical Left Wing Democrats Preach ........


The Redistribution of Wealth
Unchecked Growth of Goverment Agencies and Programs
Socialized Medicine
Goverment Economic Assistance
Propaganda used to Condition the Masses to Legislative Behavior Modification
Weathly People are EVIL



Guess what ? Your WRONG ........

edit on 1-10-2010 by Zanti Misfit because: (no reason given)

Where's abolishon of the state?
Where's workers ownership of the means of production?
Where's reforming pay so that it matches hours worked or the physical labor involved?

I didn't see that on your list! I haven't heard that on Progressive websites! Not one Democrat preaches for any of those things!

Do you want to discuss Statism in the Democratic Party or Socialism in the Democratic Party because everything you mentioned is Statism NOT Socialism.

reply to post by Misoir


" Radical Left Wing Democrats "

They exist within the Democratic Party , and they do have an Agenda witch incorporates the things I mentioned in my Previous Post .



Next up - The MYTH of the " Ultra Right Wing Conserative " ?

Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
reply to post by Misoir

 

" Radical Left Wing Democrats "

They exist within the Democratic Party , and they do have an Agenda witch incorporates the things I mentioned in my Previous Post .



Next up - The MYTH of the " Ultra Right Wing Conserative " ?

They can believe whatever they want but unless they want workers to own their own income and their own jobs and change the way we make money, then they aren't Socialist. I don't care how 'radical' they are.

reply to post by Misoir

EDIT TO ADD: In noway am I implicating that you have ever stated such
I am at work but wanted to get a cozy spot on this one.

I do have a few questions for you Misor...

Well, not really a question, rather a statement that in blanketing the Democrat party as Socialist, I agree with your assessment. Blanket statements never paint the whole picture, but do leave broad implications.

Questions now though....would you, given it does not fall under your political leanings provide the same that the Republican Party is not Facist?

This really is a rhetorical question as I care not much about the division of how persons are labeled, but rather by their convictions in what they believe in and their actions.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Republicans are definitely NOT Fascists. They are Social Conservatives and Economic Liberals(Libertarian economics).

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

I don't see the issue with most of those things you listed, that is pretty mainstream in all reality. It doesn't make it Socialism as Socialism opposes the state.

It's pretty much any ideology that believes in a government.

Trust me when I tell you that you are about to find out just how big an issue those things are.

reply to post by mnemeth1


All I meant was that it's not just what people call Socialism that believes in the things you listed, that's pretty much any ideology, except Communism/Socialism/Anarchism/Libertarianism.

Well if they become a problem we will find our way through it.