"Board of the Flies"

Originally posted by 2weird2live2rare2die
excuse me i thought this was AMERICA
RABBLE RABBLE

No it's ATS, not a democracy.

Between The Lines

The medium of text can be misleading, since it does lack all of the other cues we are accustomed to in face-to-face communication. But ironically enough, that's precisely why the medium of text is so revealing -- and honest.

When I first joined ATS, I tended to post first and ask questions later, and to this day rather famously don't use one word where twenty will do. Over time, however, my read-to-post ratio has reversed. These days I tend to read much, much more than I post.

And much have I learned from doing so.

Yes, Lord of the Flies is a very apt analogy for human behavior online, whether on ATS or on the Internet in general. Once liberated from the many strictures that traditional society imposes, we tend to run wild, exalting in our freedom, testing boundaries just like we did when we were children. It's so different in that sense that it can be intoxicating, and overwhelming.

But as with all things, once we adjust, a new sort of natural order emerges. We see values that may be overlooked in the "real world" come to the forefront online. And although there are many similarities, in many ways online communities tend to evolve differently than "real world" communities.

Here on the Interwebs, it doesn't matter what you look like, what you sound like, how much money you have, what clothes you wear, how old you are, or anything else other than how you express yourself. You can be whoever you want.

And yet, despite that freedom, ultimately we find that we can only be ourselves, no matter how hard we might try to act like someone else.

Each day, when I read through so many posts on ATS, I see people reveal their true selves. No matter how complex and sophisticated our attempts to disguise ourselves online may be, in truth we cannot hide who we truly are. Indeed, the very attempt is itself oh so revealing.

What we inadvertently reveal can be ugly. But even that is just a thin veneer in the end, a veil of scars we sustain from the trials of life, something we can all understand and empathize with.

Online life can be harsh and unforgiving, just like life in the "real world".

But the greatest surprise to me is how, despite the many warts and blemishes we all must carry through life, it ultimately becomes clear in the unflinching, final analysis, how beautiful we truly are.

To see that affirmed in so many different ways, so clearly, and without guile or contrivance, is by far the greatest reward ATS has to offer.

reply to post by badgerprints

Leadership : Lead, Follow, or Get The Hell Out Of My Way...

Oh yes, shipwrecked on an island, the leadership in question because no one is actually leading.

Nothing to do react wildly, run around like hooligans, and make fun of the fat kid with glasses.

The primal nature of mankind and the mindless barbarians bore me because of the visceral reactions.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2039172c978f.jpg[/atsimg]

Lord of the Flies

Amazon Review :

William Golding's classic tale about a group of English schoolboys who are plane-wrecked on a deserted island is just as chilling and relevant today as when it was first published in 1954.

At first, the stranded boys cooperate, attempting to gather food, make shelters, and maintain signal fires. Overseeing their efforts are Ralph, "the boy with fair hair," and Piggy, Ralph's chubby, wisdom-dispensing sidekick whose thick spectacles come in handy for lighting fires.

Although Ralph tries to impose order and delegate responsibility, there are many in their number who would rather swim, play, or hunt the island's wild pig population. Soon Ralph's rules are being ignored or challenged outright.

His fiercest antagonist is Jack, the redheaded leader of the pig hunters, who manages to lure away many of the boys to join his band of painted savages.

The situation deteriorates as the trappings of civilization continue to fall away, until Ralph discovers that instead of being hunters, he and Piggy have become the hunted:

"He forgot his words, his hunger and thirst, and became fear; hopeless fear on flying feet."

Golding's gripping novel explores the boundary between human reason and animal instinct, all on the brutal playing field of adolescent competition. --Jennifer Hubert

Nothing like a good or even great analogy to bring about some form of leadership.

Lord of the Flies (1990) - Trailer


This is one of the many reasons why people are seeing less and less of my threads on ATS.

Because of the maelstrom of stupidity, lack of direction, and few quality leaders who want to lead.

After a point all talking becomes just that, talking, without walking a walk towards doing something.

Pointless rhetoric which leads to going around in circles and doing nothing to stymie the conspiracies.

Talk without action is nothing but a hollow gesture through impotency of inadequacy.

When you see less and less of certain people here on ATS it is because they are out committing actions to go with the words they phrase here in the online environment, and actually making a dent into those things we are speaking on, complaining about, whining about, and or bitching about, and while learning, enlightening, and teaching is a fine habit to be into it, without an action plan to go with it, it is nothing but useless rhetoric and dreams.

Originally posted by badgerprints

If every poster that was on ATS in a 24 hour period was suddenly placed in a room together with the doors locked and nametags on, do you think the same levels of hostility would be prevalent?

edit on 16-9-2010 by badgerprints because: add a question

No. Most of the 'mouths' wouldn't even turn up. Although I'd pay money to see the 9-11 crowd get locked in a room and finally sort it out.

Sometimes I think the internet drives us further apart than brings us together. Of course years ago 'Lord of the Flies' brought my whole class together in agreement....Bored of the Flies.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
On another note, I do not believe there are "gangs" of posters on ATS. I believe some people share certain opinions and defend them tenaciously. I find myself debating against some members at times, and supporting them at other times. To believe there is some collusion of "gangs" that coordinate their attacks in certain forums is paranoia. I guess on a place like ATS, we can expect a lot of paranoia, so I am not at all surprised.

Brother, I have verified that other gangs exists here. We as masons are unfortunately a "gang" Because we share a common factor and discuss it here openly, we do fit the profile. But I found out there there are other groups that form for the sole purpose of having safety in numbers. It doesn't bother me, nor am I afraid of them, but they exist none the less.

I have noticed that when several well known members produce positive threads, the general mood in the whole place lightens up. At times we need to be serious and fight the evil empire controlled by reptilian overlords from center earth, but sometimes, we need to have a bit of sunshine pumped up our backsides and reciprocate with happiness. Oh, and beer.

I'm working on about 29 hours with no sleep. (Job related necessity) and don't have the mental fortitude at this point to answer all of the posts but I don't really need too. Well said, even the few small items I didn't agree with.

One point did give me pause and a bit of thought.

The idea that no matter how hard we try to be someone else in the real world or on the web, we all end up revealing who we are eventually. (I forget who made that point but it is a good one) I like that idea and I think that the long standing members eventually can identify those traits in other members. Sometimes, members don't even realize that they are already figured out by everyone and they end up like the king with the invisible clothes. Everyone sees through it but them.

I still think that even though there aren't any organized "gangs" (could just be a conspiracy theory) that we do tend to organize along those groups on occasion depending on the discussion and subjects. I think a few are always the hostile/chaotic side, a few are always on the reserved/ compliant side and most of us end up in either group eventually depending on a lot of factors. I think there are even a few that are never on any side but their own.

One last point to make and it is just a thank you for seeing this thread as a discussion about ideas and not an attack on any one person or group. I think most of us end up in both groups eventually and that is just being human. A lot of good points made and hopefully when I re-read it tomorrow after some sleep this particular post won't be pure gibberish.

Here's to being shipwrecked with an interesting bunch of characters.

Night all.

reply to post by network dude


OK, technically we do represent a common interest, but it isn't like we are having secret meetings and discussing our beliefs and intentions.....wait......anyway, nevermind.

Just kidding, what I mean to say is that I don't believe there are U2Us flying behind the scenes where groups of ATSers are plotting a coordinated attack in a certain thread or forum group. I see the accusations in the 9/11 forums and the Obama threads. Two sides seem to form and the weaker side accuses the stronger one of collusion. I don't think that happens, I think it is just coincidence. I could be wrong.

I think it is important for people to find creative outlets for their online anger. For instance, as I am typing this message, I find myself seething with intense, volatile anger. But, you wouldn't know it by reading this because of my calm demeanor. Again, at this very moment, with each passing letter, I am filled with pure, vile, hateful, spiteful anger. And yet I seem calm and rather pleasant from the light, casual, conversational, and somewhat cheerful tone of this paragraph. That's because I am releasing my anger in an creative way...

After reading many "debunkers" on just about every thread, I was suddenly overtaken with seething anger. I found it very soothing to open my special drawer in the study, where I keep a squeeze-ball replica of the world. It has the oceans in blue, the continents in green, and you can *squeeeeeeze* it away until you feel better. Unfortunately, I have been only squeezing the stress ball world with my right hand. This has led to some frustrating situations, as my right forearm (and hand) are much larger than their counterparts, so much so that I am publicly shunned.

No, just kidding about all of that. I thought we needed a bit of a slightly humorous post to break up all the seriousness.

HERE'S THE POINT: Message boards, threads, topics... It's like school. It's like *everything.* It's LIKE the real world. You think just because people are there, in person, that they aren't going to be rude? Just attend a football game. --And it doesn't matter if it's NFL, college, high school or little league. Parents, fans, FACULTY are going to go bonkers at one point or another. Someone is going to eventually get so mad and throw a punch.

ATS threads are a microcosm of society, which ain't so civil. Look at the show "Cops" or any talk show. Heck, even Fox News resorts to Cavuto's gravelly (highly irritating) and ruined voice steamrolling his own guests. Sounds like the guy attended too many WWF rallies where he yelled too much.

EVERY public venue sees its share of the loud, the obnoxious and the ignorant.

Civility seems to have left 'Merica. Teachers aren't allowed to discipline kids. In fact, they live in fear of a law suit OR being physically harmed by their students. If we can't get kids to behave, well, they tend to grow into adults who don't behave. I took my son to a Chucky Cheese once. That won't happen again. --I'd never attended a Chuckie Cheese as a kid. I thought it would be fun. It's a mad house filled with unsupervised running, screaming kids hyped up on sugar. So, here we are, being civil and polite in a sea of rude, aromatic chaos. The pizza is stellar, though. Surprisingly stellar.

My point is that no matter where you go, you're going to encounter people who are rude, and worse. It's something that can't be stopped. So, not surprisingly, it's here on ATS. Like a previous poster said, maybe just try to rise above it, and if it gets too much like Jerry Springer, or WWF or Chuckie Cheese, take your pizza and run away. Don't look back.

--Oh, and good thread. It's a nice reminder for us to check ourselves. Are we being too rude? It's a call for us to look at the person in the mirror and wonder if we're proud of what he or she has just posted.

reply to post by GhostLancer

I'd never attended a Chuckie Cheese as a kid. I thought it would be fun. It's a mad house filled with unsupervised running, screaming kids hyped up on sugar. So, here we are, being civil and polite in a sea of rude, aromatic chaos. The pizza is stellar, though. Surprisingly stellar.

I agree with the majority of your post, but don't knock Chuck E.! His motto is "where a kid can be a kid." My kids are extremely well behaved 95% of the time. I let them go buck wild in Chuck Es and run around. There is a "sort-of" security person at the front door, I don't have to clean up after them, and the other kids are going wild at the same time, so I can relax for a moment. I keep an eye on the exits, drink my Root Beer, and eat some pizza in peace! Ironic to find peace amid all the chaos, but that is how the place is designed, plus the Pizza is pretty good, and some of them still sell Beer!!

reply to post by getreadyalready


while trying not to stray too far from the main topic here is a bit of what I mean about posting gangs. It may not exist anymore as they were very disorganized. (they didn't even have secret handshakes)

BTW, I once heard about a buy getting drunk at Chuck e Cheeses and punching out the Gorilla who played the drums. Don't be that guy.

Nice thread. I agree with the basic premise, and believe the tendency to behave in an uncivilized manner is not unique to ats, but can be found across the internet. I play poker both live and on the internet, and the difference in how people treat each other is remarkable. I'm sure some characters like Phil Helmuth aren't very civil in either format, but generally the live game is extremely civil, even friendly, regardless of the players' skill level, betting patterns, or calling tendencies. Online, people call each other vile things at the table and feel no social pressure to restrain themselves. I believe, regardless of the fact that both on ats and at poker sites you have a name that you can be identified with forever, people feel anonymous in these formats, particularly the less prolific (and in poker less profitable, and hence less conspicuous) people.
I am not immune to this tendency, and though I do try to be the same person online in in life, I would NEVER criticize someone's play in person, and have been known to do so in an internet game.
Great topic. Also love the thread title.

sorry wrong post at wrong place

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

while trying not to stray too far from the main topic here is a bit of what I mean about posting gangs. It may not exist anymore as they were very disorganized. (they didn't even have secret handshakes)

Nice thread! I don't know how I missed that one, except I probably just didn't realize it was about Masons and anti-Masons, LOL! I guess you are correct and there are (or at least were) people emailing in the background and trying to organize their attacks. Kind of funny. I saw someone post that it would suck to be the only Mason in an anti-Mason thread. I disagree. "You can't go wrong with right." As my buddy always says. Seems like an unfair fight to use Masonic principles in debate with a bunch of idiots speculating and repeating internet rumor. Anyhow, nice thread, and I now realize that maybe there is such a thing as "internet gangs." Who woulda thunk it?

BTW, I once heard about a buy getting drunk at Chuck e Cheeses and punching out the Gorilla who played the drums. Don't be that guy.

I've heard all kinds of horror stories about parent's at Chuck E Cheese. Never witnessed it for myself, but I definitely won't be that guy. If I get that drunk I might try to seduce the sexy girl in the costume, but I won't fight the animated objects I promise. I once discovered (if I may brag a little) that the "model" hired to be the Michelin Man at a Tire Kingdom event was an actual "MODEL!" Swimsuit model, well-known, and man was I glad I decided to get drunk and flirt with a stupid costumed character! I had heard that Disney often used petite girls in their costumes, so after a few beers, the guys urged me to go flirt with the Michelin Man, and I did, and it was AWESOME!! OK, enough reminiscing, we now return to regular scheduled programming.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by Whine Flu

 

I don't debate, I am not good at it and no one seems to want to find common ground, so I just post a small opinion and let it slide,

I just tell the opposition that they like men. It hasn't failed me yet.

What a pleasure it is to be on this thread among members who speak so eloquently.

There hasn't been any points made that I can argue with. I agree with every poster.

Since this is the Internet and not reality, to some members, all answers and equations are correct at some time or another.

You are not just faceless posters to me. You are all very real with you own quirks and personality.

I would very much enjoy meeting every member here. Hopefully one day in the future we will have meet ups in centralized locations. The meet ups that I have attended with other chat groups have always gone very well.

A very wonderful lady has become my dear friend. We met through ATS. Our biggest obstacle to meeting each other is that she is in Australia and I am in the USA. It is my hope to travel to meet her next year.

If it goes like the other people I've met from the Internet is will be good.

Maybe we need to be more considerate and tolerable of other posters. I, myself am going to be more careful with my posts. No way I wish to seem rude or offensive to anyone.

Originally posted by Sam Vimes

Sometimes I think the internet drives us further apart than brings us together. Of course years ago 'Lord of the Flies' brought my whole class together in agreement....Bored of the Flies.

I was the same in junior high school with "LOTF's", Moby Dick, The Great Gatsby....... lot's of the classics.

I've been going back to the older stuff now that I'm in my 40's and have found that they mean a lot more now.

One of the big things that stands out as different about books like Lord of the Flies, Heart of Darkness, Animal Farm, Frankenstein is that these books were analogs for human behavior. They mean something more than just being literature for entertainment.

Of course the classics do have their share of pure entertainment. I've recently re-read The Three Musketeers, Twenty Years After and the Man in the Iron Mask. They are pure story that are loosely based on history. Very entertaining.

I guess we understand a lot of this stuff more as we come to understand ourselves and others more.

I do not see how I would be much different than I am in real life. I tend to be upfront and speaking boldly, never really back down and understand that life is going to throw at me what it will. I guess after reading some of the posts on here I would be beaten up (I am a bit of a smaller guy), but I figure if you have to resort to such tactics to get your point across or to make others bend to your will you were not worthy of logical discussion anyway. Therefore, in real life I would say the same thing, and have said the same thing. I have no need for bullies in my life.

Actually now that I think about it I am a bit more quiet on ATS than in real life. I think my spelling and grammar are better too (thank you spell check).

Raist

reply to post by badgerprints


Awesme thread, and eye opening for me. I find mysef on both sides, and never even considered that. The whole community here is definitely made up of unique people, with different back grounds, life styles, history's etc., that obvioulsy does come into play here.....both the good and the bad. I agree that people would definitely act differently in person, and that might not be the best thing.......some people might be intimidated, others may embellish more, some may not say anything........so all in all I think the boards here may be the best thing......I'm sure there are people who act differently behind a keyboard, but probably not to the extrees we'd see in person. As far as the "gangs" on here, I think there probably are, to a certain degree......but they really don't seem to have an effect, other than maybe people will quit posting on a certain topic for a time. I'd say all in all this place has changed, some for the better, some for the worse....but it's the only ATS we have.

I've actually been accused of being part of a posting gang. Truth be told I had a moment of wondering if I wasn't part of the cause of this thread to begin with!

Like Raist said earlier, I act here exactly as I do in real life. I'm assertive and confident, most of the time. Put me around beautiful women and I go totally stupid - but I think that is probably just about a universal male trait. I'm obstinate in real life as well as in cyber-land. It's just "me".

In my case, at least, I think that what we don't get to see online is the small things that make most of us tolerable. Here we tend to gravitate to threads that interest us. And by virtue of that interest, we already have strong preconceptions and suppositions. These are the things in life that we tend to stand up for, argue, and defend. The little quirks that make us unique individuals tends to get lost in the digital translation.

While there is anonymity here, I don't think that most people take too much advantage of it. And those who do tend not to last very long or contribute much - in the big picture.

At the end of the day I think that people just tend to want to hold on to their view of the world, to their morals, and to their expectation sets. And in this I don't see any real sin or trespass. Just people being people.