Atheists, I have only one thing to say to you

If I'm wrong, and there is no God, then there is nothing to worry about. No harm, no foul. Death then blackness, nothingness.

If you're wrong, you're all screwed. Forever.

I may not be a good enough person to get ushered to the front of the line, but you all have a one way ticket.

I cannot reconcile the notion of Heaven at all.

For example, I still have a very strong attachment to my ex. I cannot imagine a Heaven where she and I are not close. But she's moved on and married another guy, who she is madly in love with. Her Heaven does not include me. I cannot figure out a way past this in my mind.

My pet ferret, who I also was close to, died a few months ago. As of right now I can't imagine a Heaven without him in it. The only problem here is that I am a 44 year old man who has buried several pets over the years. Just because Max, my former ferret is my present favorite, does not mean that my other pets were not also favorites. It's simply that Max is the most recent, and therefore the freshest one in my memory. I cannot reconcile my present feelings with how I would have to feel about this in an afterlife.

I could go on for quite awhile with these little "isms" but they all land at the same result. I cannot imagine a Heaven that works.

So, based upon that I feel that the best thing for me would be to sleep forever. That would be my Heaven.

From that perspective, you, not I, am the one taking the big chance. What if you find yourself in an eternity that you cannot reconcile?

*ETA: Please overlook the lack of cohesion in this post - it's about nine hours past my bedtime and the lack of sleep is catching up to me.

reply to post by Hefficide


From your post, I gather, that if you did believe in a 'Heaven', it would be a personal Heaven, not a one size fits all kind of deal. Tell me if I misunderstood. I believe the same.

I'm prepared to accept whatever fate I receive, good or bad. I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm good enough to go to 'Heaven'. I'm not. Some faiths believe that Hell is the absence from God.

But, as far as me taking the big chance. If there is no God, I won't know it anyway. I'll just be dead and gone. An Atheist on the other hand will be in for a rude awakening.

reply to post by minute2midnight


Yes, you understood correctly. The only Heaven that I can fathom would be an individual one, or one that catered heavily to the individual.

I do realize that this does not match, at all, the Biblical representation of Heaven. Some demonimations do preach a more individual Heaven. But I've read the Bible and came away with a much different view. One that is even more difficult for me to rationalize or accept than the personal option.

I do suppose that a "Matrix" sort of situation could be possible where everyone is fed their own idealized world, customized perfectly and populated with virtual representations of those who wouldn't want to be there by choice. But even that stymies me because I wouldn't want a simulated love, I'd want the actual person.

Again, I hope this is cogent. On top of tired, I am now also feeling the effects of the Ambien I took to try and get to sleep!

reply to post by Hefficide


I understand your point, from the perspective of the Bible. First, let me say, that although I identify myself as a 'Christian', most 'true' Christians would call me a heretic and want to burn me at the stake. I believe in God, I believe in Christ. I also believe a mix of various philosophical and religious teachings from Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism, Confucianism, etc... Which is why I emphasize words that typically related with 'Christianity'.

I believe that God is God, no matter what book you read. I also believe that God is personal and has a unique experience with each individual. Just as 'Heaven' (and Hell) is a unique experience for each individual.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Back on point.

In response to you not being able to believe in a 'Heaven' that is what you call simulated. If there is a God. And if there is a 'Heaven', then all things are possible. It wouldn't be simulated, it would be real. Because God would make it real. I know that seems like a paradox. And it is, from a logical human perspective. But from the perspective of God, nothing is impossible.

reply to post by minute2midnight


I live my life trying not to hurt or interfere with anybody else.

I believe there is more to life than just this existence but I don't know if there is a God as portrayed in a book written by Man..

I can only live as I feel is right and when I die, if God is real and rejects me, well thats just too bad and shows why I have lived as I have..

A "True" God would not need to be worshipped and prayed to dan and night.

A "True" God would only care that you lived your life without harming others..

If you are right and I am wrong then you get to go to Heaven and I must be sent to Hell.

Of course, you don't really know that these places exist, so you're just taking out insurance.

The premium you pay works out as follows:

1. A lifetime of mental confusion due to the need to avoid obvious logical conclusions your religion will not let you accept;
   
   
2. A lifetime of delusion, refusing to see what is clearly before your eyes;
   
   
3. A lifetime of compromise, of pretending right is wrong and vice versa because 'the Bible tells me so';
   
   
4. A lifetime of failure, forever falling short of impossible (and unnecessary) standards of behaviour.
   
   
5. A lifetime of excuses and justifications for falling thus short.
   
   
6. A lifetime of entirely avoidable and unnecessary guilt and shame, and
   
   
7. A lifetime of exploitation and financial expropriation by the religious bosses who rule you.

Plus, if you are wrong, you will have wasted your life living and believing a crippling lie.

God, as described in the Bible, is an evil entity without a single redeeming feature, either human or divine. If such a God existed, and decided who is to be taken up to Heaven or who is to be sent to Hell, then we would all be faced with two equally dire choices: either to play along with His wickedness, showering Him with flattery, thanksgiving and praise and turning a blind eye to His evil, purely in order to gain His favour; or else to show him the middle finger He so richly deserves and suffer the pains of infernal eternity for honour's sake.

Fortunately I do not believe it will come to that.

Originally posted by minute2midnight
If I'm wrong, and there is no God, then there is nothing to worry about. No harm, no foul. Death then blackness, nothingness.

If you're wrong, you're all screwed. Forever.

I may not be a good enough person to get ushered to the front of the line, but you all have a one way ticket.

Yea believing in something cause of fear... that's the way to go. This "argument" has been used so many times and you just made a fool out of yourself for using it.

reply to post by minute2midnight


Oh look, it's Pascal's Wager!


It's been a while since I've addressed this one.

Ok, so your position is basically: If I'm wrong, I'm screwed, if you're wrong nothing happens differently for you.

But what if you and I are both wrong? What if you're a Christian, I'm an Atheist, and Islam is the true religion? Or Zoroastrianism?

That's the simple way to refute the argument. There are so many possibilities that there's no way to make a guess based on probability alone.

Also, you're not really giving me a reason to believe, only a reason to pretend I believe. If I'm not sincere in my belief in a deity would it not be worse than not believing at all?

reply to post by minute2midnight
Minute2midnight,
Some do come out of Atheism as the Spirit of God does pull on all men until He is grieved away. The Bible was given by The Spirit and God is Spirit, Jn.4:24, and man did write out what was revealed to him. He then is known as the prophet of God. God only is the Prophet, the man is His instrument. What I want to add is the fact that His Prophecy does prove Him and His Redeemer. The prophecy given by Isa.53: chap. and only 12 verses long gives such a perfect account of the comming Redeemer and certain points set forth that when you read the gospels you are held in amazment of the foreknowledge and the absolute accuracy, Everyone needs to read Isa. 53:1-12 as it will strenghten your faith. This is the simplest example of the foreknowledge of the prophecy of God I can think of without a proper interpretation of the prophcy. A man's interpretation of prophecy is of no value, it must be by His word and most prophecies have never been properly interpreted. If the Word doesn't interpret it, it becomes man's theology. I hope to make a thread on this subject as it will solidify our faith and increase it. We must gather all the faith we possibly can, we must have the faith of Jesus, Yahshua.

Ps 119:105 ¶ NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

His Word, The Truth Irons out the wrinkles and lights the way, so we don't stumble.

Truthiron

reply to post by minute2midnight

“We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud”
-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice

No wonder some people went for that BS.. Poking the same irrational fear..
Like people who vigorously triple check, if everything is shut and closed when they leave the house. "It's better to be safe than sorry!!"

Originally posted by minute2midnight
I'm prepared to accept whatever fate I receive, good or bad. I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm good enough to go to 'Heaven'.

So, it seems we are in the same position after all. Because I, too, am prepared to accept whatever lies beyond this life. Not so different, huh?

so what you're saying is you only believe in god because he promised you heaven after death? well, if there is a god, YOU are screwed, you think the guy who created everything don't know you have vested interest in him? this is no different from being someones friend only because he promised you money. you are pathetic.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by minute2midnight

 

Oh look, it's Pascal's Wager!

Exactly right, this only works in a world where there is only 1 religion

The correct answer was Mormon

I really don't think we'll ever be capable of knowing factually whether or not there is life after death, or if it just amounts to nothing, unconsciousness, like when you get knocked out for surgery.

If life DOES just amount to the latter, then it has absolutely no meaning at all. What good is it to procreate and pass along your genes if you can't reap any of the rewards aside from the sex part? It amounts to creating a future that we will not be a part of except as population enhancers, but do you really need a high IQ to do that? Dinosaurs did it for millions of years with brains the size of walnuts. There almost HAS to be more to explain the intricate nature of evolution, subatomic particles, molecules, photosynthesis.

The meat of the matter is the proof. There is a lot of "proof" for either side. It's just what proof you decide to believe in.

Suppose there is something after death, something that someone or something on a "higher plane" than us is controlling. Call it God, call it whatever. Why would they so cleverly hide from us one of the most sought-after answers in the history of humankind? The only thing I can imagine as a possible answer would be that we either could not comprehend it, or it would change the way we currently behave/think to a course they don't want us to follow for whatever reason.

I can't believe I just subtly implicated God as the mastermind of a possible conspiracy theory.

I dont believe in either heaven or hell..... But...... Lets head out into fantasy land...Hell is for people that live "unholy" lives.... What if in hell, you get to do all of the things that get you put in hell... Like, if hell was a 24/7 party with drugs and hookers. And heaven was prayer and charity... Call me what you will... I would pre-reserve my spot at the party!!!!

I often ask religious people what they think about scientology.. The common response is " They are dilusional- Their religion is based on a fictional novel.... And a few other crazy beliefs." I find that ironic to say the least!!

Completely different from christianity or Islam........ Or is it?

Our Govts. are NOT the problem... Religion is the problem, the biggest problem on this planet! Religion is for weak minded people to help them deal with death and dying. You say you are playing the odds on this one... Hmmm so you are not a man with clear convictions? Do you live your life as wishy washy as you view religion?

Truth: Mary was a whore that cheated on her husband and got the fool (Joseph) to believe that "god" gave her the pregnancy.... Hmm .. Ok so when your wife comes home pregnant and you have been fixed, I am sure you will believe her when she tells you god did it.... hmmmmm

If you have enough of an imagination to believe some of the stories in the bible... Then you have enough of an imagination to believe that Adam and Eve were dropped here by aliens from another planet...

Originally posted by Mobius1974
Truth: Mary was a whore that cheated on her husband and got the fool (Joseph) to believe that "god" gave her the pregnancy.... Hmm .. Ok so when your wife comes home pregnant and you have been fixed, I am sure you will believe her when she tells you god did it.... hmmmmm

Faith is something that is vitally important to millions of people, is a key part of their lives and helps them find comfort in times of distress, when the whole world seems to be against or at least indifferent to them. I know. I've been there.

And, to this, you issue a foul, unsupported and patently offensive statement like this? What does this say about your morals? About your character? About your tolerance for others?

You should be ashamed of yourself for even contemplating such garbage, much the less testifying to it in public.

reply to post by adjensen


FACT ... PERIOD!!! Keep believing your 3000 year old book written by drunk lower class ancients!!! I cant have an opinion? Thats hilarious.. A religious person will be the first to tell me I am going to hell, But yet I cant have or speak my opinion.... LOL .. and the hypocracy of religion continues...

Repeat: Mary was a whore that lied to her husband.. Jesus dad was a soldier... Joseph aparently was a nieve gent.


Thats rich!!!!! Because I see religion and the bible for what it is.... I have no moral compass? lmfao!!!
Maybe I should call you insane ...for making wishes to a man in the clouds... Or to believe asexual reproduction is possible in humans.... Impossible.. Science tells me so..

Your source is a book that has been altered and edited so many times it should be tossed out.

Maybe you should be considered insane to think there is a higher being that knows all of our thoughts.. and is going to judge where you spend eternity... D_I_L_U_S_I_O_N_A_L

Religion is for the weak.. To help them deal with death and dying.. And for those with low morals to fear repriasal from "god"... Ever notice if you look at God in the mirror? D-O-G.. Irony .. I think not!

You speak of my words hurting people??? If you believe, then what do my words hurt? Is it bad to offer an alternative to your book? Your book is a joke.. all religions are a joke!!! Made and kept alive by the weak!! to control the weaker!!

Maybe mary wasnt a whore... Maybe she just had to much to drink and thought the soldier was Joseph.. Ill give her a little credit..

reply to post by minute2midnight

An Atheist on the other hand will be in for a rude awakening.

That is so true what a surprise they are in for.The bible talks about a resurrection for all believers and non-believers, after that atheistic viewpoints will not exist, what will exist are people who STILL don't want to be accountable to God, but they won't have atheism and evolution to use as mental and emotional crutchs anymore.

Originally posted by Mobius1974
Repeat: Mary was a whore that lied to her husband.. Jesus dad was a soldier... Joseph aparently was a nieve gent.

Thats rich!!!!! Because I see religion and the bible for what it is.... I have no moral compass? lmfao!!!
Maybe I should call you insane ...for making wishes to a man in the clouds... Or to believe asexual reproduction is possible in humans.... Impossible.. Science tells me so..

If your shameful disregard for other people is typical of atheistic human view, you can keep it. It is rather amusing that atheists are quick to decry the evils of religion, while embracing such ignorant, bigoted and obscene views such as you profess.

Yes, you clearly have no moral compass, save your own personal attributes of prejudice, dishonesty, cruelty and bigotry. Probably lets you fit in nicely with the rest of the racists, homophobes and degenerates with whom you share so much.

What a sad, pathetic and hate filled life you live. I pity you as much as I revile your ignorant blatherings.