So, ATS, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

reply to post by Maslo


I was a foster parent in Kansas for ten years.
We hahd three girls over the years
in our home who were pregnant due to incest.
The girls all had the babies.

I helped put one of the dads in prison where he lives today.

One of the girls had a son who died from @ five major birth defects
two months after birth.

The other two were adopted.

Incest no do not support abortion.

Rape resulting in pregnancy, never had any experience with a real life situation.

No do not support abortion in rape cases.

reply to post by slugger9787


No even in case of rape and incest? Well, okay then, at least you are consistent with your thinking.

very much pro-choice. i know that abortion is definitely a very hard thing to do, and not fun in any way. i hate pro-lifers who talk about how wrong and murderous it is; i respect that you think it's wrong, but nobody skips into an abortion clinic. nobody likes abortion; it should just be available as an option.

Originally posted by modified
very much pro-choice. i know that abortion is definitely a very hard thing to do, and not fun in any way. i hate pro-lifers who talk about how wrong and murderous it is; i respect that you think it's wrong, but nobody skips into an abortion clinic. nobody likes abortion; it should just be available as an option.

I am pro choice 100 percent as long as you include both of the adults and the infant baby's opinion in weighing the choices.

Since PRO CHOICE is internally inconsistent in that it limits Choice to only one of three persons, and substended from that is the Womens rights postulate, which is internally inconsistent as well due to half of he aborted babies are women, I have to choose the paradigm that is both internally consistent and wholistically integrated to all three individuals involved. I AM PRO LIFE.

The position of pro life by its internally consistent logic also includes PRO (per) CHOICE.

BECAUSE IN TRUTH THERE CAN BE NO CONTRADICTION, NONE, OR IT IS NOT TRUE NOR THE TRUTH.

reply to post by slugger9787

Immediately following fertilization of an egg by a sperm, you only have to ask yourself one question. IS IT ALIVE? If it is alive then you only have to ask yourself one question. IS IT HUMAN? If it is human then you only have to ask yourself one question. DOES IT POSSESS THE INALIENABLE RIGHT TO LIFE? If is possesses that world wide human right, then the conclusion can only be that ABORTION DENIES this PRIMARY RIGHT TO A FELLOW HUMAN BEING.

To be alive and human is not enough to earn the right to live IMHO. All body cells are alive and human (posess genetic code of the whole human), yet you dont run aroung rescuing blood samples or skin cells. Why? Because they dont poses human mind (brain). Brain-dead human with functioning rest of the body is certainly alive in biological sense and can live on life support until natural death, yet they are proclaimed medically dead. Why? Because what makes them human (mind, functioning brain) is not present anymore. And in embryos its also not present.
Btw. Aliens under your 2 questions would not be protected. Would you kill intelligent alien just because it does not posess human genetic code? Isnt that chauvinistic?

My 2 questions to determine right to live (and right for protection) are different:

IS IT ALIVE?
DOES IT HAVE AT LEAST PRIMITIVE MIND (CONSCIOUSNESS)?

Since bacterias, primitive organisms AND embryos do not pass the second question, therefore they can be legally killed. Embryos after development of higher brain, humans, higher animals, aliens cannot.

No one wants to kill humans (human persons), or any suffuciently intelligent entities (aliens, sentient AIs..). The distinction between prolife and prochoice lies in the definition, what is a sentient entity (lifeform) and what is not.

I am pro choice 100 percent as long as you include both of the adults and the infant baby's opinion in weighing the choices.

But embryo has no opinion, since opinion implies mind, which needs sufficiently functioninig brain. That is nonexistent at the time. And both adults are considered, but since they are only two, you cant reach decision if they dont agree, so you must choose whose opinion is more important. From biological and sociological sense its certainly the mother.

reply to post by Maslo


Consciousness is much too gray of an area to base life on..

life or consciousness implies opinion.
opinion is a mental activity.
sentinent comes feom latin word meaning to feel.
a fertilized egg, now a human makes choices, underneath the choice is INTENTION and intention has below it opinion.

if you watch a newly fertilized egg it has an opinion that it wants to stay alive. it choses with deliberate intention action after action after action from one second following another to live.

every intentional choice it makes from conception is for life.

reply to post by slugger9787

Consciousness is much too gray of an area to base life on..

Its not, using modern science, neurology and developmental psychology, its beggining can be determined fairly accurately (+ - one month). See links I posted earlier in this thread. Just to clarify, we are not basing LIFE on consciousness, there is also unconscious life. We are basing right for protection on consciousness. Not all life needs to be protected.

life or consciousness implies opinion. opinion is a mental activity. sentinent comes feom latin word meaning to feel.

Exactly, and mental activity and feeling implies sufficiently functioning neural system, or analogous system if we consider sentient AI robots and aliens.

a fertilized egg, now a human makes choices, underneath the choice is INTENTION and intention has below it opinion.

Do not mistake simple preprogrammed responses and executing preprogrammed genetic code with conscious intention and opinion, which require functioning neural system. Early embryo is no more conscious than bacterial colonies, or computer programs you use.

if you watch a newly fertilized egg it has an opinion that it wants to stay alive. it choses with deliberate intention action after action after action from one second following another to live.

It has no opinion to stay alive, it is only preprogrammed to stay alive. Only after development of the brain it has an opinion to stay alive, since opinion is a mental activity requirng sufficienlty comlex underlying neural network to exist as a quality.

every intentional choice it makes from conception is for life.

It does not make intentional choices, only blindly follows genetic programming, only after conscious brain takes over the process does it make intentional choices. Intent implies and requires consciousness.

i am in favor of asking the peson who has their life on the line.
The baby.
Ask the baby what is your choice.
Or just take sonograms and you can deduce with logic what the baby is constantly vhoosing
LIFE.
At every instant they choose life, not death while they live and reside in supposedly the safest place on earth, their mommy's womb.

reply to post by TokiTheDestroyer


I'm pro-death...
for all of humanity.

Originally posted by slugger9787
i am in favor of asking the peson who has their life on the line.
The baby.
Ask the baby what is your choice.
Or just take sonograms and you can deduce with logic what the baby is constantly vhoosing
LIFE.
At every instant they choose life, not death while they live and reside in supposedly the safest place on earth, their mommy's womb.

So why aren't pro-lifers protesting outside IVF clinics.

Besides when someone needs a blood donor or bone marrow the government doesn't force people to give up bodily resources, pregnant women shouldn't be treated differently.

reply to post by igor_ats


I THINK THE THREAD IS ABOUT PRO LIFE OR PRO ABORTION DEATH .
If you want to have why pro life is not protesting there then start a new thread. okay?

The whole debate regarding pro life/choice is, in my opinion, ridiculous, because it all boils down to individual choice anyway. Yes, you can make it illegal and harder to get an abortion but if a woman is determined, then she will do whatever it takes. Whatever your point of view is, you cannot actually stop every woman from getting an abortion. Abortion is like everything else in life, a choice. It really doesn't matter what your viewpoint is.

But that's just one humble girl's opinion.

Originally posted by peterpansgirl
The whole debate regarding pro life/choice is, in my opinion, ridiculous, because it all boils down to individual choice anyway.
Yes, you can make it illegal and harder to get an abortion but if a woman is determined,

any reason this strong determination cannot be applied to abstinence,

then she will do whatever it takes.

any reason she will not do what ever it takes to ensure the baby child lives instead of dies?
that sounds more like the maternal instinct to me..

Whatever your point of view is, you cannot actually stop every woman from getting an abortion. Abortion is like everything else in life, a choice. It really doesn't matter what your viewpoint is.

But that's just one humble girl's opinion.

Originally posted by slugger9787

Originally posted by peterpansgirl
The whole debate regarding pro life/choice is, in my opinion, ridiculous, because it all boils down to individual choice anyway.
Yes, you can make it illegal and harder to get an abortion but if a woman is determined,

any reason this strong determination cannot be applied to abstinence,

then she will do whatever it takes.

any reason she will not do what ever it takes to ensure the baby child lives instead of dies?
that sounds more like the maternal instinct to me..

Whatever your point of view is, you cannot actually stop every woman from getting an abortion. Abortion is like everything else in life, a choice. It really doesn't matter what your viewpoint is.

But that's just one humble girl's opinion.

Who's more likely to get an abortion because of unwanted pregnancy? Teenage girls. Why it can't be applied to abstinence? I'm not sure, maybe sex just feels too good, or there's too much peer pressure? Maybe we should put the effort in THAT debate (which might be able to fix something) instead of this one.

Any reason she will not do whatever it takes to ensure the baby child lives instead of dies? That's up to the individual isn't it? Neither you or I can answer (much less answer correctly) that question for each individual mother/couple who decides on abortion.

I'm pro-life but I understand, the problem that exist with simply making it illegal.. Abortions would only go underground, and become unsafe for women again. So this is really a no win situation.

reply to post by Target Earth


they are extremely unsafe for women right now even though they are legal.
the cost of abortion
one dead
one wounded

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by Target Earth

 

they are extremely unsafe for women right now even though they are legal.
the cost of abortion
one dead
one wounded

Well, reading through this thread, it is clear to me that nothing is going to make you change your mind.

I am pro choice. I always will be. I have to be. There is no other way around it. I have experienced abortion via my partner and while it wasn't an enjoyable experience in the least, it was a life-preserving one. I am thankful and glad that we made what was a difficult decision (made easier by medical matters) and there were the facilities available for it to be performed safely and with empathy.

I do not wish for anybody to have to go through it, but if they do I hope they are treated with the same respect, dignity, and empathy that my partner and I were.

Without it, using slugger's (in my opinion) failed reasoning there would have been two lives lost. However, for the record I do not consider the foetus an living breathing 'self-sufficient' organism of sound mind (well...no mind!) to make any sort of (informed) decision.

Not pro choice. Not pro life.
Those are both just manipulative political constructs designed to help divide voters into more easily manipulated demographics.

I am anti-abortion though.

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by Target Earth

 

they are extremely unsafe for women right now even though they are legal.
the cost of abortion
one dead
one wounded

Well, reading through this thread, it is clear to me that nothing is going to make you change your mind.

I am pro choice. I always will be. I have to be. There is no other way around it. I have experienced abortion via my partner and while it wasn't an enjoyable experience in the least, it was a life-preserving one. I am thankful and glad that we made what was a difficult decision (made easier by medical matters) and there were the facilities available for it to be performed safely and with empathy.

I do not wish for anybody to have to go through it, but if they do I hope they are treated with the same respect, dignity, and empathy that my partner and I were.

Without it, using slugger's (in my opinion) failed reasoning there would have been two lives lost. However, for the record I do not consider the foetus an living breathing 'self-sufficient' organism of sound mind (well...no mind!) to make any sort of (informed) decision.

edit on 28-9-2010 by aorAki because: spellchecque doesn't pick up syntactic eras

edit on 28-9-2010 by aorAki because: brackets

It sounds to me like your wife/girlfriend had a life threatning pregnancy.
I am sad to hear that.
I too have been involved in a situation or two like that.

In both instances the baby died, and one pregnancy was a set of twins.
That was the most difficult funeral I ever attended in my life, or ever will.
That is by far the exceeption to the rule.
Most abortions are done for convenience, like fast food and thirty minute tv shows.

So you have a very specific situation which you generalize into a pro choice position for everyone.
there are 1,500,000 million adortions in America, and
You will never convince me that the majority are rape, incest or life threatening.