Do You Believe In Transsexualism?

Originally posted by fooks
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

so nobody can change? even if they can do it?

you some kind of taliban? sex guy to stone peoples?

Ad-hominem attacks in the face of difficult to debate concepts??

It sure feels like you just threw a stone at me for my statements, my friend. How ironic.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

So... transsexuals, who go through years of counseling are just confused and ignorant, huh?

Show me one human being that is not confused or ignorant about something. Got 'cha.

are you a confident heterosexual?

really, a confident heterosexual.

I believe it is mainly social engineering, however, everyone's different in some way.

Originally posted by fooks

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

So... transsexuals, who go through years of counseling are just confused and ignorant, huh?

Show me one human being that is not confused or ignorant about something. Got 'cha.

are you a confident heterosexual?

really, a confident heterosexual.

This is a debate on trans-sexuality.

Has nothing to do with heterosexual or homosexuality.

And what does my personal preference have anything to do with the subject at hand?

Keep those ad-hominems coming. I am enjoying the show.

reply to post by InfaRedMan


If you want me to be honest IRM, then it's a bit of both.

I definately don't understand them and without sounding disrespectful I find it personally distasteful walking down Canal Street in Manchester where you have "Women" who where men chatting up men.

Originally posted by Death_Kron

Originally posted by Pinke
Just to throw something into some of the misleading stuff about 'mutilation' etc ... It's been touched on a little but just glossed over.

These types of efforts in medicine do actually save lives. I've heard it described by my endocrinologist as a tragic diagnosis, but that's mainly because of how society reacts to it. The act of the change or correction depending how you feel about it makes many people more stable, more relaxed, and into much more productive human beings.

If it saves lives is it such a bad thing?

Excuse me for being naive but how can a man having his penis chopped off, an artificial vagina created from the remaining folds of skin, wearing women's clothing, putting on make up and a fake voice make anyone more stable or relaxed?

I'm sorry but I really just don't understand that.

Please read my other post on this issue. Your constant references to having sexual organs chopped off etc ... show you misunderstand gender in this context somewhat.

- A psychiatrist wouldn't suggest or approve hormone therapy based purely on a person being excited by wearing other people's clothes or based on fascination with self mutilation
- A large number of people don't have the surgery you're constantly referring to

One very powerful way is self expression and being able to externally express ones self. People with gender tend to take it for granted at times. Gender is such a powerful influence in our society. The simple effect of natural hormones makes a huge effect on some people, too and it's often all that's required to make some more comfortable.

The preconceived notions of how TS/TG people work from shows like Jerry Springer is pretty much what you appear to be referring to here. Not every TS/TG looks or acts like a man in dress or a diesel dyke with a beard. Those are just the ones that the MSM likes to make a nice song and dance over.

Just because you have such a strong and narrow idea that female gender = make up and a dress doesn't mean everyone else agrees with you. I have no idea what you think a male TS/TG looks like but I would assume it's something equally narrow?

Maybe I've taken you wrong here, but that's how it's coming across.

reply to post by muzzleflash



hey man i like your posts in other forums.

do you hate trannys? i might have got you all wrong about this.

girl brains, guy brains, it is freedom, who can really bitch about it.

i deal on a daily basis. no prob.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

If you want me to be honest IRM, then it's a bit of both.

I definately don't understand them and without sounding disrespectful I find it personally distasteful walking down Canal Street in Manchester where you have "Women" who where men chatting up men.

LOL! Were you one of those men? A few too many lagers when you were out on the town with the boys one night... dim lights... woman at the bar... 3:00 am...

I get the picture mate

IRM

reply to post by getreadyalready

You are really trying to make me think today aren't you.

Yep! Whomever's willing, I like to encourage.

Even if I put a truck bed on motorcycle, or handlebars on
my boat instead of a steering wheel, they still each have
too many quirks and requirements to assume they are
going to operate the same.

So maybe they won't operate the same. Consider the first person who built a RV/mobile home. It's not quite a house, and it will never perform as a car as well as a car would. But isn't it nevertheless a useful thing, capable of standing on its own, a thing that somebody might like to have?

I need to be able to take it and drive it in its
current form, without too much modification.
Otherwise, I am missing out on the whole experience.

Isn't that an arbitrary position? Maybe you feel that way, but why must anyone else? You may as well say that it's "necessary" for a house to be attached to the ground so you can receive the "full experience" of having of house, and that a car absolutely must get good gas mileage and fit in a garage, so obviously RV's serve no purpose and nobody could possibly want one.

Imagine a person who doesn't have the money to buy both a house and car. Imagine a person who wants the convenience of having all his clothes and things with him, but wants to travel. There are people in the world who can be happy with the hybrid phenomenon that is owning an RV.

Is it possible there may be people who can be happy with the hybrid phenomenon of having a sex change?

You will never catch me turning my motorcycle into a unicycle or mounting fancy chrome rims and tires on an airplane or a boat!

That may be. But I can imagine taking a semi truck and building an underground bunker out it. Or draining a swimming pool and using it to skateboard in. Or taking a computer case and turning it into a hamster cage, or a computer monitor into a fish tank. These are all major, functional changes, but nevertheless, they are valid things that I could see myself doing, and I would perceive no ethical concerns with any of them, regardless of how odd others might might perceive it.

Why should the body be different?

reply to post by Death_Kron


there are hookers everywhere and every flavour.

geeze, don't frett.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Got to agree with you there, personally I don't think it's right either.

There was an advert the other day on TV basically glorifying cosmetic surgery and I thought that was very wrong.

Different topic but related.

Transsexualism and plastic surgery are not the same if you think about it.

How are they related? They aren't advertising changing your sex all over tv. I see more breast augmentation or butt injection adds than anything. What does that have to do with transsexuals?

Have either of you ever really known anyone who is transsexual? I doubt it because if you did you would see it's just as hard for the individual to deal with than you! People who are transsexual don't just go and hit on anyone that crosses their path. They are usually very private about it and frequent bars where others who are also transsexual or those who accept them frequent.

All you people who think gays and the like just go around hitting on people they KNOW don't care for them then you really need to get out more. I have been to gay bars, know many transsexuals and sorry they don't have a mental disorder. Pretty much every transsexual I know was like this growing up. One guy I know from school, we all knew in Elementary school and we didn't care he was and is who he is a human being and a great one at that. Another I know says it is like being born in the wrong body and if anything can happen in the womb with your genetic make up then maybe it really is something you are born with in some cases. Who knows but it doesn't make someone mental ill. I don't think anyone who is gay or otherwise has mental issues nor do I think they are disgusting.

Sorry if you want a sex change you have deep mental issues, the kid gloves are off, this is the truth to bitch and moan otherwise is a waste of time and is just being done for the sake of arguing.

I had a gay roomie, one day he told me he dreamed of being a woman. Obviously some sort of chemical imbalance inside that ol' brain.


Sorry if you don't enjoy the pheromones of the opposite sex, sounds like your brain chemistry is out of whack.

My one and only post in this thread..


Ciao.

ps: Freddie Mercury still pwnz.





[edit on 3-9-2010 by Lysergic]

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
If the surgery isn't harming you directly, I wouldn't worry about it so much.

I would worry about it so much, because this philosophy/ideology is encouraged and supported by scientists like these gentlemen, Dvorsky and Hughes, and their suggested solution:

Postgenderists argue that gender is an arbitrary and unnecessary limitation on human potential, and foresee the elimination of involuntary biological and psychological gendering in the human species through the application of neurotechnology, biotechnology and reproductive technologies. Postgenderists contend that dyadic gender roles and sexual dimorphisms are generally to the detriment of individuals and society. Assisted reproduction will make it possible for individuals of any sex to reproduce in any combinations they choose, with or without “mothers” and “fathers,” and artificial wombs will make biological wombs unnecessary for reproduction. Greater biological fluidity and psychological androgyny will allow future persons to explore both masculine and feminine aspects of personality. Postgenderists do not call for the end of all gender traits, or universal androgyny, but rather that those traits become a matter of choice. Bodies and personalities in our postgender future will no longer be constrained and circumscribed by gendered traits, but enriched by their use in the palette of diverse self-expression.

Postgenderism: Beyond the Gender Binary

This may affect my children, and will almost certainly affect my children's children and humanity as a whole. So, naturally, I am concerned.

My personal opinion is that we as a society can address the relevant issues philosophically. If we try to address these philosophical/ideological issues by "solving problems" scientifically, we will likely end up in a situation where human reproduction is dependent on technology... and what happens when society collapses and we lose the technology necessary for reproduction? No more humanity.

Why use technology to solve problems that our society would inevitably overcome through natural ideological/philosophical progress?

i think my interest in genderbenders can be traced to bugs bunny..
the several cartoons where bugs would crossdress and befudle elmer fudd.
and flip wilson doing geraldine..(had to draw the line with jethrine..)
but coming from the john wayne era there were only a few who i can remember
that went against the grain..john told kirk douglas that he shouldnt do
the van gogh movie because it was about a sissy artist..they got in a little feud
when kirk reminded him he never really stormed any of those beaches..
i wonder what john would do with johnny depp..
he seems to get away with some swishy role playing.
in ancient times the androgenes had their own temple.
the hopi held them in high regard.
ive known a female to male trans. it's strange territory..
and there was a male to female in the art circles that was pretty appealing..
still a crazy artist type..drummer in a t-girl band..
i suppose the subversive artist in me admires an individual that
rebels and claims their own style.
causes some ripples on the pond.
and dont get me started about seven of nine..

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Note: Mod's, I wasn't sure where to put this. It's not really a conspiracy so please feel free to move as appropriate.

Hello all,

I've got a quick question for all you, simply do you believe in transsexualism? i.e. do you think that some people are born "in the wrong gender"

Personally, I can't get my head around it. I've recently accepted that homosexuality isn't a choice and that gays/bi's are born that way although in some circumstances I do still think that homosexual relationships can be a choice rather than a naturally born sexuality.

I cannot however accept transsexualism, this isn't a dig at those who have had gender reassignment surgery but put simply it's not possible to have a sex change.

Sure you can have hormone therapy, implants, surgery etc but I'm sorry at the end of the day if your born a man you'll always be a man, if your born a women then your always going a women.

If you take a car and remove all it's wheels it doesn't become a boat, it's a car with no wheels.

If you have a man who has his bits cut off and hormone therapy then I'm sorry but he's still a man just with modifications.

You'll always be what you are born as and that cannot be changed.

I find homosexuality hard enough to understand but transsexualism is really beyond me.

I'm not trying to cause any offence to anyone just describing my personal views.

Thoughts?

ok, you don't know any do you.

that's ok, not many people do.

it's tough, what friends can you trust?

who can support you?

it's like abortion, i guess. my body, my choice.

Perhaps this could be related to the increasing amounts of estrogen that is found in the water supply; I saw a report that said children are reaching puberty younger and younger and boys are being born with elevated estrogen - will try to find that link.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Abnormalities wil alway's exist but like I've mentioned above a transsexual can never, ever become a member of the opposite sex.

That all depends on your point of view. What is a woman? If the answer is a human with a vagina, then all people with vaginas are women. If the answer is all humans that are BORN with a vagina, then your statement is true. To me, being a woman isn't about sex organs. It's about how I FEEL.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on this, but as I have said, being a woman is a state of mind, not a sex organ. If a man gets a sex change and wants to be called a woman, I'm going to honor that. That's me.

Regarding the physical vs emotional aspect, PTSS (Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome) is an emotional condition with no physical proof. Do you "believe" in that? Used to be called "shell shock" and after that, Combat Fatigue and now PTSS. It doesn't really matter if people "believe" in it or not, it's real.

Interesting how people are totally supportive of certain issues like PTSS, but because transsexualism and homosexuality have to do with sex, so people think it's taboo or something - or abnormal.

Originally posted by eMachine

This may affect my children, and will almost certainly affect my children's children and humanity as a whole. So, naturally, I am concerned.

How will it effect your children?

My personal opinion is that we as a society can address the relevant issues philosophically. If we try to address these philosophical/ideological issues by "solving problems" scientifically, we will likely end up in a situation where human reproduction is dependent on technology...

Define philosophical? It can be argued that philosophy is all talk no action - and in that regard, if something were to happen to Earth which sterilised most of the planet, no philosophical discussion could combat that, but science sure could.

Why use technology to solve problems that our society would inevitably overcome through natural ideological/philosophical progress?

Whose Ideals? Yours? A religious denominations maybe?

Your talking about forcing people to drink some politically correct kool-aid and pretend that everything is cool! It almost sounds like a brainwash / reprogramming manifesto. Deny that you are X and pretend to be Y. The state demands it of you. Those are dangerous ideas!

I don't believe you can even begin to imagine what a transsexual goes through. To suggest it's a philosophical issue is somewhat naive. Do you know any transsexuals personally?

IRM

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
I don't believe you can even begin to imagine what a transsexual goes through. To suggest it's a philosophical issue is somewhat naive. Do you know any transsexuals personally?

Your assumption is hilarious. As I mentioned in my first response to this thread, I do not consider myself very feminine... in fact, I am quite misogynistic, although a woman myself. You assuming that I cannot understand how they feel is quite naive as well.

If what Benevolent Heretic says above is true, I may actually BE what you call transsexual, because I do not FEEL like other women seem to.

I have spent hours on end watching their videos on YouTube, because I think I do understand the emotions that drive them to have hormone replacement therapy, surgeries, and whatnot... I have actually wondered if some sort of hormone therapy could help me "feel more like a woman". I watch their videos because I want to understand their decision, and I also want to see how these "treatments" affect them and their sense of self.

Ultimately, I think this is scientific experimentation... we often learn from our mistakes... hopefully that will be the case. Call me idealistic, but I think society could progress beyond superficial stereotypes and accept people as individuals without using alot of silly labels to place people in boxes that do not express who they really are.

Originally posted by eMachine
Call me idealistic, but I think society could progress beyond superficial stereotypes and accept people as individuals without using alot of silly labels to place people in boxes that do not express who they really are.

You are idealistic... It's not just about societies acceptance of transsexuals. If I was a female trapped in a man's body and society says, "it's ok, we like you that way". That is not going to change my dilemma. At the end of the day, it's about 'me' and how I feel in my skin, not them.

Having said all that, where do we draw the line on corrective surgery? Who decides what is and isn't worthy of such procedures? Someone who doesn't suffer the affliction and can never really know?

I don't quite understand... You're female misogynist? Do you have hatred and hostility towards females? Do you feel like a guy - or do you loath yourself in some way? You certainly don't look like a tomboy (if that's you in your avatar). Quite the contrary!

IRM