Is Yahweh really the prime creator?

The Enuma Elish is a creation story where in the beginning there is chaos.
It's Marduk that kills Tiamat and fashions the earth from half of her and the heavens with the other half and her spittle to make the rains.

(In this part of the creation story, Nibiru is the pole star.)
He constructed stations for the great gods,

Fixing their astral likenesses as the stars of the Zodiac.
He determined the year and into sections he divided it;
He set up three constellations for each of the twelve months.
After defining the days of the year by means of heavenly figures,
He founded the station of the pole star [Nebiru] to determine their bounds,
That none might err or go astray.
Alongside it he set up the stations of Enlil and Ea.
Having opened up the gates on both sides,
He strengthened the locks to the left and the right. (10)

I don't have time to read it again, but in another section of the Enuma Elish, Nibiru is called the planet of the crossing.

It's been a very interesting read. I don't think people look upon Christ on the cross as a murdered being, but are taught a being died for their sins. I think he should be taken off the cross, because people want to worship a being outside themselves. I think at that time period there were many beings with the 'higher consciousness', but the church wants man to believe he is not capable of achieving a higher level of consciousness. He did say "Haven't ye read the scriptures? Ye are gods."


Like one poster admitted after reading the OT, he wanted to throw the bible against the wall? I wanted to do just that!

You have read a book of Barbera Marciniak. I've read one of her books, "Family of Light". 2000 years ago, humanity had a chance to choose the light, but instead chose a different path. It's a very good book.

reply to post by impaired


Sorry, but my book "Es begann in Babylon" ["It began in Babylon"] is only available in German: www.amazon.de...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266427149&sr=8-1-spell

My book "Reincarnation, Christianity and the Dogma of the Church" is in the printed version also available only in German, but an English translation can be downloaded for free as a PDF: www.christliche-reinkarnation.com...

reply to post by Onboard2


The interpretation of Nibiru as the „pole star“ is a scholar interpretation. The interpretation as a comet-like planet encircling the sun in 3600 years, where the Anunnaki live, is an “outsider” interpretation by Sitchin and others. I have studied the Sumerian texts (in translations) and find no contradiction to that. The problem is that scholars simply cannot accept an interpretation beyond the narrow scope and “coutume” (customs) of official science, since they would be ridiculed by colleagues and intrigued against if they did.

That is how official reasoning and thinking is indirectly controlled … it has to be kept within the frames of what is allowed to think and believe.

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by Onboard2

 

The interpretation of Nibiru as the „pole star“ is a scholar interpretation. The interpretation as a comet-like planet encircling the sun in 3600 years, where the Anunnaki live, is an “outsider” interpretation by Sitchin and others. I have studied the Sumerian texts (in translations) and find no contradiction to that. The problem is that scholars simply cannot accept an interpretation beyond the narrow scope and “coutume” (customs) of official science, since they would be ridiculed by colleagues and intrigued against if they did.

That is how official reasoning and thinking is indirectly controlled … it has to be kept within the frames of what is allowed to think and believe.

What do you feel concerning Jupiter?
www.michaelsheiser.com...

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Onboard2]

On a lower level, Sophia (Wisdom) appeared as an Emanation of Barbelo. She wanted to create a male entity to appear out of herself, but without approval of the Spirit and without letting her consort know it (consorts are mentioned in connection with entities; hence they are actually androgynous, but either the female or male part comes in appearance). It was her own idea. She actually had just a thought, but on that level thoughts are creative: you think it, and then it is there. Therefore this entity came to be in ignorance and was imperfect. Sophia realized this and regretted it, cast the entity away from her and surrounded it with a luminous cloud, so that no one might see it but the Holy Spirit. She called it Yaldabaoth.
Yaldabaoth created further entities, which became his powers. They are called the Archons. He was himself the “first Archon”. The apokryphon tells about him: “…he is ignorant darkness. And when the light had mixed with the darkness, it caused the darkness to shine. And when the darkness had mixed with the light, it darkened the light and it became neither light nor dark, but it became dim. …And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him.

Some gnostics believe Sophia is earth. Do you?

reply to post by Onboard2


A typical scholar defense of their limited world view that doesn't allow for anything beyond what official science allows to believe and think.

The problem with scholar or academic thinking is that it by all means holds on to materialistic views and fearfully avoids anything that could be regarded as “spiritual” or even “esoteric” (or “inspired”).
Cf. www.christian-reincarnation.com... (two locations marked with a little red star *).


[edit on 1-9-2010 by memyself]

reply to post by Onboard2


According to Gnostic texts, Sophia is clearly a divine emanation in spiritual dimensions and not the Earth.

The story of Marduk is a Creation story very similar to the Bible’s own. The myth evidently stems from the Old Babylonian Empire, about 1800 B.C.E. Marduk is sovereign deity over the heavens. Marduk institutes order by killing the dragon of primordial chaos, Tiamat. Marduk then creates the sky (firmament of heaven, Genesis 1:8) and the sea (firmament of waters, Genesis 1:7) from the monster's remains. He establishes the year and divides the length into 12-months. Marduk assigns the other constellation gods to their stars and planets. Marduk decides that Jupiter’s path along the ecliptic will guide the stars. The Babylonian Creation Epic, Enuma Elish further mentions Marduk had 50 names associated with 50 special powers. Jupiter traditionally marks a 12-year pattern that repeats the stellar configuration almost exactly every 12-years. Babylonian scribes knew that Jupiter opposes the sun (opposition) according to a nearly 12-year cycle. They added intercalary days to plot Jupiter’s position for a zigzag effect in the astronomical diaries. Marduk also determines the horizon and zenith. He furnishes the sun’s rising and setting positions and places the moon to light the night and count the days (Genesis 1:14). Marduk, Zeus, Jove or Jupiter was the designated ruler in the night sky.

www.timeemits.com...

The planet Jupiter has been known since ancient times. It is visible to the naked eye in the night sky and can occasionally be seen in the daytime when the sun is low.[124] To the Babylonians, this object represented their god Marduk. They used the roughly 12-year orbit of this planet along the ecliptic to define the constellations of their zodiac.[21][125]

Could Nibiru also be a crossing point or 'ferry'?

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by Onboard2

 

According to Gnostic texts, Sophia is clearly a divine emanation in spiritual dimensions and not the Earth.

She clearly did fall to a lower dimension.

reply to post by Onboard2


In my view an association with Jupiter is the only “logical” conclusion for a materialistic academic world concept that cannot take the existence of non-(physical)human entities for real. This doesn’t exclude the possibility that Nîbiru could be a planet beyond the conventionally known planet system related to our sun. See below.

To call Ti’âmat a “monster” misses an essential aspect in the beginning of Enûma Elish. It begins before the Biblical creation story begins, with celestial events that are said to have occurred before there was any physical matter. “And no pasture land had been formed and not even a reed marsh was to be seen … non of the other gods had been brought into being” (quoted from the source below). There only were Apsû and Ti’âmat and so far no one else. They created gods, like emanating out of them. Being a later creation, one of these gods was Anu, and then proceeded further creations by him, the “divine brothers” (the Anunnaki), who “disturbed Ti’âmat and assaulted their keeper… moving and running about in the divine abode. Apsû could not diminish their clamor… their doing was painful, their way was not good… Apsû opened his mouth and said… ‘Their way has become painful to me … I will destroy them and put an end to their way’” (quoted as below). However, Ti’âmat, their prime mother, opposed. After all they were her children. To anyway prevent their destruction – or better reversal of their creation – they “killed” Apsû and later also wanted to “kill” Ti’âmat. But it is, of course, not possible to kill the prime creators. It will mean that they shut themselves off from them to live and do as if the prime creators were “dead”.

So obviously the “good ones” here are the prime creators and the “bad ones” the Anunnaki, the “celestial rowdies”. This can be compared with the story of the “fallen angels”. But since the Sumerian story will be biased, because Marduk and the others were their gods, they described it in a different way.

“Nîbiru shall be in control of the passages in heaven and on earth,
For everyone above and below who cannot find the pas¬sage enquires of him.
Nîbiru is his star which they caused to shine in the sky;
He has taken position at the solstitial point(?), may they look upon him,
Saying: ‘He who crosses the middle of the sea without resting,
His name shall be Nîbiru, who occupies the middle thereof;
May he maintain the course of the stars of heaven;
May he shepherd all the gods like sheep;
May he subdue Ti’âmat, may he distress her life, and may it be short!
Until future (generations of) men, when the (present) days have grown old,
May she retreat without hindrance, may she withdraw forever!’
Since he created the (heavenly) places (and) fashioned the firm earth, …”

Enûma Elish, Tablet VII, 124-135, transl. by Alexander Heidel in his book “The Babylonian Genesis” 2nd ed., University of Chicago Press. 1967, p. 59.

We may understand this as Nîbiru’s Anunnaki having a total control of all that was going on also beyond the Earth, i.e., in space and that no one was allowed passage without their permission.

I am fully aware that this way of seeing things is controversial for the academic convention of trying to make it fit in a “Procrustes’ bed” of purely material concepts and of “mythological figures” being fantasies and inventions. And yet I see this as possible.

reply to post by Onboard2


Before she descended, she was certainly in a spiritual realm and probably also afterward. How, then, could she be the Earth? Do you mean that she became the Earth?


[edit on 1-9-2010 by memyself]

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by Onboard2

 

Before she descended, she was certainly in a spiritual realm and probably also afterward. How, then, could she be the Earth? Do you mean that she became the Earth?


[edit on 1-9-2010 by memyself]

I think it is possible, because everything has a consciousness and the earth is a living entity. Sophia de-evolved into matter. (This is only a theory)

I'm not disputing anything you have stated. It's very interesting and I do not think Yahweh is a prime creator.

I'm confused on the matter of Nibiru. Can you clarify where the Anunnaki claim that Nibiru is a planet? If it is established that Marduk is Jupiter, then Jupiter is at the place of the 'crossing' where the gods were created and birthplace of stars and planets.

In the constellation Ophiuchus there is a gateway?

Ophiuchus’ right foot stands above the galactic center or golden gate of heaven. This golden gate of heaven is located between the arrow of Sagittarius and the stinger of Scorpio where the ecliptic crosses the Milky Way. It was from this heavenly gate that the ancients believed the gods descended.



[edit on 1-9-2010 by Onboard2]

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by Onboard2

 

To call Ti’âmat a “monster” misses an essential aspect in the beginning of Enûma Elish. It begins before the Biblical creation story begins, with celestial events that are said to have occurred before there was any physical matter. “And no pasture land had been formed and not even a reed marsh was to be seen … non of the other gods had been brought into being” (quoted from the source below). There only were Apsû and Ti’âmat and so far no one else. They created gods, like emanating out of them. Being a later creation, one of these gods was Anu, and then proceeded further creations by him, the “divine brothers” (the Anunnaki), who “disturbed Ti’âmat and assaulted their keeper… moving and running about in the divine abode. Apsû could not diminish their clamor… their doing was painful, their way was not good… Apsû opened his mouth and said… ‘Their way has become painful to me … I will destroy them and put an end to their way’” (quoted as below). However, Ti’âmat, their prime mother, opposed. After all they were her children. To anyway prevent their destruction – or better reversal of their creation – they “killed” Apsû and later also wanted to “kill” Ti’âmat. But it is, of course, not possible to kill the prime creators. It will mean that they shut themselves off from them to live and do as if the prime creators were “dead”.

Yes, in most interpretations, Tiamat is chaos and in some interpretations 'salt' water and the Apsu 'fresh' water.

reply to post by Onboard2


What is chaos? To day we understand it as a state of utter confusion or disorder, a total lack of organization or order. Hesiod, however, understood chaos as EMPTY SPACE, later it was understood as prime substance, the pure existence before creation. It is interesting that the Greek word “chaos” is derived from “chaino” that means “yawn” – as in the expression “yawning emptiness”… cf. “tohu va bohu”, i.e., “desolate and empty” (Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23). As concerns the clay plates, the meaning of the term “chaos” is more fittingly in this sense a description of the prime state before the creation, before there was any kind of matter or other entities than Apsu and Ti’amat, than the term “water” in a physical sense.

To understand Apsu and Tia’amat as “fresh” and “salt” water again to me seems to be restricted academic thinking, maybe based on the fertility in the area of Southern Mesopotamia where the fresh waters of the rivers mix with the salty water of the sea (imagining that people there fantasized about this in such a manner). But if we take the description in Enuma Elish at least in part seriously as referring to what really happened in cosmos long before we were, however difficult this will be to understand for us humans, it appears as nonsense that there would before any creation be nothing more than “fresh” and “salty” water…

I would have to agree with you, as far as, fresh and salt water, lol, but there was no order in the beginning and, if you will remember, in Genesis God's spirit "moved over the face of the waters." I can't imagine there being an order, but only chaos in the beginning. Okay, I'll rethink this.

I happen to believe life evolved from 'water' and water is very special. There is so much life in water.

reply to post by Onboard2


The clay plates indicate that Nibiru would be the home of the Anunnaki, i.e., the place from where they came. It appears hard to imagine that they came from Jupiter. If we at least try to take Enuma Elish a bit seriously as a description of creation in Sumerian words, and that Apsu, Tiamat and the “gods” could actually be real entities (quite a bit beyond our comprehension) – and not as pure fantasy of “primitive” people trying to understand inunderstandable things in their way.

If we try to look at it that way, from where could they have this information? Of course from the Anunnaki when they were still physically present here! Were they once physically here? I don’t expect you to believe in any way in regressions, i.e. “past-life regressions”, even though there is an enormous experience with them to day, totally neglected by official science. If we may take it at least a bit seriously, here is a short eye-witness report: www.christian-reincarnation.com...

The “gateway” as described in the texts rather appears to be the asteroid belt.
I find it really hard to associate Ophiuchus with anything in the clay plates.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by memyself]

reply to post by Onboard2


There was no order and there was no disorder, either. There was only energy and nothing else. Try to imagine life in cosmos that isn't in our sense in any way "physical" and was there long before there ever was any "physical" matter. Where was then any "water"? What academic thinking wants to understand as "water" (in order to "squeeze" things into a material concept of the world) was the primordial energy.

Water is essential for our forms of life only in the material world.

Originally posted by memyself
reply to post by Onboard2

 

There was no order and there was no disorder, either. There was only energy and nothing else. Try to imagine life in cosmos that isn't in our sense in any way "physical" and was there long before there ever was any "physical" matter. Where was then any "water"? What academic thinking wants to understand as "water" (in order to "squeeze" things into a material concept of the world) was the primordial energy.

Water is essential for our forms of life only in the material world.

Okay, I understand what you are saying. I didn't say that the Anunnaki came from Jupiter, but a gateway or 'crossing point". Nibiru is also used in the Epic of Gilgamesh as a word for 'ferry' or crossing point. I stated that Marduk could be Jupiter.

In the first part of Genesis male/female had not split and then in the next scripture God has created male and female(separate) in his image and I think here is where the Anunnaki make an entrance. Scholars are confused by Genesis.

In the Sumerian clay tablets, Enki is depicted in his watery abode or Apsu. EA is water. I do agree that in the beginning there was only energy, but from reading the Sumerian creation story, there certainly is a great deal of water, so this wouldn't be the very beginning of creation. They were the master geneticists that designed the Adamu.

reply to post by Onboard2


Some may have associated Marduk with Jupiter, but that doesn't mean that he IS Jupiter.

In creation stories, the prime creator is usually described as one who is neither male nor female, but both.
Apsu and Tiamat could be regarded as the male and female side of one entity.
It is interesting that some stories describe creation as a sexual act between a primordial male and a primordial female (who actually could be two aspects of one). There is a Sanskrit statement (I dont remember from where): "Shiva Shakti samyogat jayate shrishtikalpana" = "Shiva and Shakti in ('sexual') union bring forth the worlds."
So when humans were created in the image of THE GODS (plural! - see my posts above) it doesn't mean that a split occurred only there and that there were no concepts of male and female before. Or a split ocurred rather in the sense that in humans male and female are no more one, but became separated.

If we understand Genesis' creation story as a "hebrewified" short version of the much more extensive Sumerian one, and that in the Biblical one a first chapter seems to be missing that the Sumerian version has - about cosmic events before there was physical matter - we could come a bit closer to understanding.

The water in the clay tablets is the ABODE of Ea on our planet, not Ea himself. But where was he before he "resided" in the waters of the Earth? Water is really essential on our planet (and probably on others, too), but we are here also discussing cosmos and entities in it before there was any water.