What Makes Ground Zero (and the surrounding area) SACRED Ground?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


So you're claiming you really don't know ?

You're saying you can't think of a reason to explain why people regard that area as 'different', 'special' and not to be trifled with ?

Ever passed a roadside cross or shrine with it's flower bouquets and fluttering letters of remembrance ? When you pass those, do you understand why that particular spot has been marked by family and friends of the accident victim ? Would you let your dog urinate on that spot ?

Or the war-graves in France with their ranked headstones visited by tens of thousands of people from all over the world on the anniversaries of battles which occurred 90, 65 years ago -- do you believe it's appropriate to hold a rock concert there ?

If you genuinely cannot and do not understand the significance of the 9/11 site, fair enough. To me, that would indicate you lack sensitivity. It could be that you suffer a syndrome or something which makes you care sufficiently about how YOU are regarded (as illustrated by the fact your ego extends to arranging avatars for yourself in forums) but feel nothing for anyone else or for what matters to them

However, even if you are unable to appreciate it, be assured that the location in which thousands of innocent people were suddenly and brutally murdered still resonates in the minds of tens of millions of people from all nations and all walks of life.

That location remains a crime-scene.

Within hours, soulless vultures began excavating and removing the evidence.

The truth of that day has never been resolved.

Hundreds of thousands of people are still mourning that day

And a powerful nation went to war on the back of that mass murder and carnage --- went to war, correctly or not, under a Christian banner against muslim nations

Yet you claim not to understand why people believe the erection of a muslim place of worship on that piece of land is considered inappropriate ?

That says a lot about you

I hope I've helped you to understand

Originally posted by Wolf Eyes
The site that was purchased to build the mosque is an old Burlington coat factory. What does that have to do with the WTC?

45 Park Place
New York, NY 10007-2404

That's the address... go look at Google maps... you can see it... see how close it is.. Go look at the street view feature on Google.. tell me if you see anything that looks like memorial or whatever you think it as "ground zero". No you'll see an AT&T store and a bunch of other buildings.

Excellent point, and when you look at it on a map, its a VERY relevant point too.

The location is not on the site at all.

This whole story about it being on the site is media hype and propaganda by various organisations.

What everyone needs to ask is this - in whos interest is it in order to try and propagate the hype that it is actually on the site?

I can understand the site of the buildings themselves being classed as a burial ground. But outside the boundaries?

reply to post by neformore


Yeah i guess all those deaths that happened around the WTC itself don't matter right? Lets just scratch them off the list of the dead.

Americans have taken enough slaps in the face, imo

This site explores some of them

vigilantcitizen.com...


Scroll down to the 'Crescent of Embrace' for example

and if you have time, peruse the others


A mosque on 'Ground Zero' would be the capping insult to many people's minds

and people the world over support Americans who object


Americans have NO need to justify their feelings on this matter


neither to anonymous individuals in forums (many of whom are paid to post ) nor to the temporary president of the US or anyone else for that matter

For those who claim not to understand

imagine a proposed McDonalds sited on that black rock held dear by muslims in mecca

imagine a proposed brothel replace holocaust museums and memorials in Europe

There you go, all those of you who're attempting to intimidate and silence American sensitivities --- you're beginning to get it now, aren't you ?

Uh huh. And remember now --- we don't want to hear any more whining about how Christimas celebrations 'offend' you

You are guests in Western nations. So mind your manners and observe Western traditions -- or return from whence you came thanks





.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by DragonFire1024


No. Lets not.

BUT

Is the whole of Hiroshima a memorial? Is Nagasaki? Tokyo? London? Berlin? - countless other cities that were bombed in WW2?

You don't seem to have a problem with people driving cars over the area - how disrespectful is that to the dead? Do you see many major highways in cemetaries?

Most memorials note a specific event, and allocate land to them. Usually there is significance to the location (such as the park at Ground Zero in Hiroshima). The rest of the surrounding area is used normally.

Are you saying that the whole of Manhattan needs to become a shrine? If so, why aren't you campaigning to get the cars off the streets, and the offices shut down in a mark of respect to the dead?

The answer is simply this - certain sections of the media in the US has hyped up the word "muslim" to the point where people see it an automatically object to anything to do with it. The fact that the location was nearly two blocks away from the site of the towers was conviniently dropped from the stories.

You drank the kool aid that the media wanted you to.

Its time to think a bit more about it.


[edit on 20/8/10 by neformore]

This subject often makes me wonder what would happen if Christians decided to build a multi-million dollar church in Mecca? I wonder if it would even get off the ground? And if it did I wonder if it would be burned to the ground. Then again this is not Mecca right? For that matter what would happen if Jews decided to build a Jewish temple in Mecca. I some how think the difference would be staggering.

[edit on 8/20/2010 by CaptGizmo]

reply to post by neformore


If it were possible sure, get the cars off the roads then. By all means. And what those other countries do with their historical sites and what not is of their concern. I never said "all of Manhattan." Not once. But a block or two from WTC? Give me a break. It's convoluted to think that Ground Zero is JUST the WTC and if that's how you think, then you are amongst too many people who just don't care enough anymore. Truly sad.

I can think about this all day and my opinion will not change just because someone tells me "to think about" it a bit more. I don't drink kool aid BTW.

EDIT: Oh and I see you are not even in the US...go figure.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by DragonFire1024]

reply to post by CaptGizmo


Problem with your thoughts there is that they are irrelevant.

Its not Mecca, the site isn't within what was the WTC complex and the USA supposedly promotes religious freedom and tolerance does it not?

Since sacred by definitition is religious, and by saying ground zero is sacred, are those who suppor tthis notion actually worshipping this ground? Is it really that kind of sacred?

I have relatives in the ground at many cemeteries in the world. Is it sacred ground, or just mother taking her children back into the fold?

To say sacred implies religion, and it is creepy to worship ground where so many were murdered.

Or is that exactly what the NWO would like us to do?

In some dark rituals, isn't worshipping death encouraged?

And now all the renewed hubbaloo in Ground Zero, as Sacred Ground.

I think the mosque is just a way to encite the masses for some reason.

Why?

[edit on 20-8-2010 by hotbakedtater]

reply to post by DragonFire1024


On the contrary, I do care.

I think its crassly insulting that the site is being redeveloped fully. I think the whole area within the boundary of the site iself should be a memorial park.

Outside the site is a different issue. The proposed centre is/was not within the boundary of the site at all.

As for my location in the world - nice of you to notice. Does it make my thoughts on the subject any less valid? No. They are simply my opinion.

reply to post by neformore


I actually have stated in another thread about this subject that it is their Constitutional right to build it anywhere they want. I only had a problem with their announcement of their opening date...which is ....you may have guessed it...9-11-2011. That's when I realized it was something more.

reply to post by CaptGizmo


The question is this... given the hype over the location, which is not in the WTC footprint at all, is/was that date an actual established fact, or more hype?

Not saying I don't believe you by the way, but what was the source for the date?

this is all really simple, people do not want to memorialize this particular area because it was just prime real estate before the attacks, but now it is one of the most popular and famous pieces of prime real estate in the world. also consider this i'm not sure of how much it was or currently would be worth or even who owns it now, but it would almost appear as if the government basically took it over? i don't know how this would work just a thought though.





[edit on 20-8-2010 by 2weird2live2rare2die]

Originally posted by CaptGizmo
I actually have stated in another thread about this subject that it is their Constitutional right to build it anywhere they want. I only had a problem with their announcement of their opening date...which is ....you may have guessed it...9-11-2011. That's when I realized it was something more.

This is a lie spread by the opposition to the Park51/Cordoba House project.

They are hoping that construction will be completed sometime in 2012. There was never any plan for an "opening date" of 9/11/11. Nor (just to get it out of the way, since it's usually the next suggestion) is there any plan for the groundbreaking to happen on 9/11/11.

Originally posted by 2weird2live2rare2die
this is all really simple, people do not want to memorialize this particular area because it was just prime real estate before the attacks, but now it is one of the most popular and famous pieces of prime real estate in the world. also consider this i'm not sure of how much it was or currently would be worth or even who owns it now, but it would almost appear as if the government basically took it over? i don't know how this would work just a thought though.

There are two possible issues here, and I'm not sure which one you're referring to.

The actual WTC site is owned by the Port Authority of NY and NJ, with some portions of the site (where there used to be streets) owned by the City of New York. I have no idea what the value of that land would be, but it would be astronomical.

The abandoned Burlington Coat Factory where the proposed community center and mosque would go up is half-owned and half-leased by Soho Properties LLC, which is in partnership with Park51 and the Cordoba Initiative and owned by a member of the imam's Tribeca congregation. It was bought from the widow of a prominent local property owner.

The half of the property that was bought outright sold for just under $5 million; the lease on the other half sold for about $700,000, with rent of $33,000 annually. There is a clause in the lease that Soho Properties intends to execute to allow them to buy the property outright once it has been valued; estimates say the valuation will come in at between $10 and $20 million. That parcel is owned by ConEdison.

edit first to add reply to 2weird2live2rare2die and again to change $800,000 to $700,000.

[edit on 8/20/2010 by americandingbat]



I just found some nice pictures of the neighborhood on a blog:

"Hallowed Ground"

Does that look like "hallowed ground" to anyone else?

[edit on 8/20/2010 by americandingbat]

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
reply to post by neformore

 

Yeah i guess all those deaths that happened around the WTC itself don't matter right? Lets just scratch them off the list of the dead.

And just how many people DID die at Burlington Coat Factory? I'm sure you've got the figure handy, right?

What is the number of deaths that are needed to make it "sacred?"

Is it the kind of death that makes is sacred? Seems more like there must be someone to blame for the death for it to be sacred as opposed to an accident or act of god.

Why is the area where the plane crashed on 9-11 not sacred?

If it is mass death - NO after Katrina? Chile after quake? What about columbine HS?

What I do find interesting here also is the accepted "Ground Zero" application to the "sacred ground." I was under the impression that this term was very specific to the use of Nukes. It is not a term that can be used for something else. Like you can't use the term knife when you mean a gun as the two are not the same. The location where a building fell is not the same as the location where a nuke when off - unless they are one in the same due to facts people speak off.

If we extend this out a bit further, then The exact points where the Atomic bombs landed when dropped by the US during WWII should be sacred ground, as it has both elements: Mass death and nukes.

In the end this whole argument is a made up issue to get people upset, then come every 7-10 days now and are just totally pointless. What if the had an issue and no one showed up to talk about it?

Originally posted by hotbakedtater


The earth is billions of years old, I am sure Gaia has absorbed many many tons of human blood, every step we take is on a fallen human commrade, or fallen animal friend.

Humans make up religions, and humans created the words "sacred and hallowed" and so "sacred" or "hallowed" ground is what we collectively say or feel it is.

Its just that simple.

It isnt JUST that that piece of ground is soaked in the blood of 3000 Americans. It isnt JUST about death, its about the impact those deaths and that event had on the American collective mind and experience. That event affected most of us, to some degree.

Its sacred because we say it is. Anything is sacred because we say it is, and we dont need to satisfy some criteria to do so. If the majority feels it is, it just is.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
reply to post by neformore

 

Yeah i guess all those deaths that happened around the WTC itself don't matter right? Lets just scratch them off the list of the dead.

And just how many people DID die at Burlington Coat Factory? I'm sure you've got the figure handy, right?

Why would it matter? Does dying in the WTC make those deaths anymore important than those people? What about the Pentagon? Or Pennsylvania? Do they not matter either? Every one of those people are as important as those who died in an attempt to save them, and so on. Just because some might have died at a coat store or McDonald's Or the At&T store a few streets down, would not make them any less, in this argument, "sacred."

If we are going to sit here and argue sacred as being religious...says who? The Church? Native Americans were around a lot earlier than the church and they consider many things to be "sacred" though not necessarily in a "religious" manner.

To simply limit the "sacred" nature of 'Ground Zero' to the WTC in a spiritual or even commercial sense is ridiculous and from a memorial standpoint absurd. I don't care what religion you want to practice. It is everyone's right. But to intentionally taunt the American people and the people who died on that day by choosing a spot as close to WTC as possible, and choosing the opening day to be the same day of the attacks and 'our' ceremonies, is an insult to all Americans, religious or not.

I said it before and will again: Soldiers get buried at Arlington. Presidents who do not deserve libraries get one anyways. Almost 10 years later, and we have a big hole in the ground, and an abandoned old ship used as 'land fill.'

IMO here is some information, may not be agreeable with all, but is information concerning the buildings the grounds, whats about to built there and much more.

Its videos in the middle of the thread. I hope this helps.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Peace.

Originally posted by 2weird2live2rare2die
this is all really simple, people do not want to memorialize this particular area because it was just prime real estate before the attacks, but now it is one of the most popular and famous pieces of prime real estate in the world. also consider this i'm not sure of how much it was or currently would be worth or even who owns it now, but it would almost appear as if the government basically took it over? i don't know how this would work just a thought though.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by 2weird2live2rare2die]

They could try Eminent Domain. "....the inherent power of the state to seize a citizen's private property, expropriate property, or seize a citizen's rights in property with due monetary compensation, but without the owner's consent. The property is taken either for government use or by delegation to third parties who will devote it to public or civic use or, in some cases, economic development."