ATS = Anti-establishment network

I changed the thread title because this one is probably more accurate




I joined ATS for conspiracies and found myself truly interested in the politics section where I now spend the majority of my time. I am not sure exactly if this is new or if I am just now realizing it but ATS has become a place for single sided politics and debate.

I am not telling people to be who they are not, to abandon their political opinions and change them for me because I could not expect that from another person and would not wish that. What I am saying is that ATS has become merely a fringe-right network for paranoid libertarians, conservatives, anarchists or whatever anti-government person you are.

Are you a Liberal, Socialist, Communist or Centrist? Well... You're not welcome! That is what I have observed from sitting back and reading for the past month. Placing my input occasionally and creating 'open mouth, insert foot' threads.

What I have now noticed is that there are very few people who dare to challenge the Libertarian mindset of ATS'ers. If you dare to challenge Capitalism they defend it by saying, "This isn't capitalism this is corporatism". If you dare to support government efforts they say, "Anything government does is by the point of a barrel". And if you dare to challenge their sentiments they attack you as...

A. Ignorant
B. 'Asleep'
C. Sheeple
D. 'Drinking the Kool-Aid'
E. A Threat

It goes on and on...

I am not asking for people to stop being libertarian or whatever you are, I am just asking to give others a chance to voice their opinions or objections without joining together en mass and attacking them. You have probably chased many intelligent and helpful people into hiding with your assaults, we could have a thriving website with lots of civil debates and beautiful ideas if people were given the chance to voice their ideas in a calm and respectful atmosphere where you may disagree with their opinion but you let them voice it.

You can obviously have a debate where you explain to them your position on the issues, but the era of 'ganging up' and making them feel as if their opinion is meaningless needs to end. When you have a civil community where ALL people are free to voice their opinions and ideals in a safe, free and accepting community then we will expand exponentially and great ideas can be created.




I know I have partaken, mostly on the religious side, in posts where I have one-sided attacks against other members or ideas in general. But that needs to end, we all need to become civil, accept others for their beliefs and don't criticize them, if you believe your position is the correct one try and influence them in a positive way.

"You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

Definition: You can win people to your side more easily by gentle persuasion and flattery than by hostile confrontation.

dictionary.reference.com...

[edit on 7/30/2010 by Misoir]

Originally posted by Misoir
What I am saying is that ATS has become merely a fringe-right network for paranoid libertarians, conservatives and anarchists.

Are you a Liberal, Socialist, Communist or Centrist? Well... You're not welcome!

Wow, you managed to put a 10,000+ member forum into a two group fiasco in just one post. You must be a genius, or wrong.

You could have written:

"What I am saying is that ATS has become merely a fringe-left network for paranoid Liberal, Socialist, Communist and Centrists.

Are you a libertarians, conservatives or anarchists? Well... You're not welcome!".....

and the statement would have been just as wrong.

If people don't agree with you then that's just a part of being on ATS. Painting the whole forum with a broad brush because they don't all agree with you is just absurd.

And gee, I didn't even have to resort to marginalizing or insulting you to make a point.



Have a nice day.








[edit on 30-7-2010 by badgerprints]

You may very well be right, but I just see it as the rebellious teenager attitude that demands hatred for whoever the current authority figure is. When Bush was in office you saw the same thing here, with the majority of posts attacking him and his supporters. At a site like this, the only thing you can guarantee is that the posters will be overwhelmingly against government.

reply to post by badgerprints


Most people keep assuming that I want everyone to agree with me. I DON'T.

I thought I made that clear. If you are a libertarian, conservative, anarchist, liberal, socialist or whatever you are, don't give up your beliefs and ideals to suit anyone else. But don't gang up on people either, don't create a hostile environment to anyone and don't talk down to someone for disagreeing with your point of view.

What is so hard about that to understand?

Two years ago when Bush was in office it was said that the political section was full of left-wing posters, now people think it's full of right-wing posters. The only thing that's changed is who is sitting in the White House. Disagreeing with our government is kinda what we do around here, regardless of who the president is.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Jenna


Very good point.

When the shoes on the other foot, now all of sudden it's an "Attack" Meanwhile anybody can post pretty much what they want, As long as it doesn't violate ATSs rules.

If someone has a valid point or argument it will show. I think people should stop looking for a scapegoat. That's just being silly.

A posters thread post or reply will stand or fall on it's own merit.

reply to post by Jenna


You summed it up quite nicely. I don't know if my friend is from the U.S. But Usually the president quickly goes from being loved to hated in a few months flat.

Here on ATS, you find that we focus more on the issues, than the non issues. Obviously that would make any one sound like the opposite of the status quo.

Another issue is that the Right Wing, both politics and media have hijacked issues by alternative groups and put the spin on them to gain popularity since Bush left office; so really who sounds like who?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by Scarcer]

As a "Leftie" I agree with the OP. I get quite depressed that my political views are shared with so few members here on ATS. It seems people do not understand that the corporations and plutocrats that rule the world are just the natural evolution of Capitalism, centralising the means of production between fewer people. The Corporations then have the wealth to collude and buy off the government. I cant see how people cant see that.

Corporations are run by Capitalists. The Rothschilds, The Rockerfellas the one s you all moan about are capitalists. Bankers who own the capital the wealth.

When the wealthy start to control the government you have a plutocracy, where decisions are not made for the benefit of the citizens but for the profits of the Capitalist corporations.

I don't even know the definition of the words right-wing or left-wing.
I don't know what a liberal is or a conservative or a libertarian.

I choose to remain ignorant to these ignorant labels that promote ignorance.

If I will call myself anything at all it would be a voter.(sometimes not even that)

If you chose one of these labels then you already chose your enemies...which in my opinion is what it is intended to do.
Why is this so hard for people to understand??

How about some suggestions to make some real change for once?

Edit to add this pic.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48e291a7ec15.jpg[/atsimg]



[edit on 30-7-2010 by DrumsRfun]

Afternoon,
I think part of the bias you feel is the result of mainstream conformity of thought. Mainstream media has created an imaginary right/left that never discusses major assumptions. The assumption in most media and political dialogue is that empire, and the power of the state is correct. Many in this forum are hostile to this conformity of thought from main stream media sources. I for one consider forums like this a refuge from conformity of thought where I am labeled crazy, or on the fringe. The hostility you might be receiving could be from the fact that the everywhere else questioning status quo is frowned upon, and when you repeat the ideology of the mainstream here people react negatively. Personal attacks and hostility are part of forums. In nearly every thread somebody falls into attacking instead of addressing the topic at hand. The anger you feel from others is only as powerful as you let it be. It can only bother you if you react. Your attitude seems to be combative. This maybe because of others attacking you, but that attitude breeds similar mentality. Do not take this as a judgment, but I have one question for you. Did you come to listen to other opinions to consider them with an open eye, or did you come to find agreement for what opinions you already believe?

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by badgerprints

 

Most people keep assuming that I want everyone to agree with me. I DON'T.

I thought I made that clear. If you are a libertarian, conservative, anarchist, liberal, socialist or whatever you are, don't give up your beliefs and ideals to suit anyone else. But don't gang up on people either, don't create a hostile environment to anyone and don't talk down to someone for disagreeing with your point of view.

What is so hard about that to understand?

I understand perfectly, I actually read what you WROTE. You have talked down to pretty much anybody who is a "paranoid, conservative, anarchist.."and then complained about being "ganged up on"

How can you preach at the people you've just tried to run down?

ATS is extremely diverse and has many members from all walks of life and points of view. The fact that you seem to be able to paint the whole site as being paranoid conservative anarchists tells me that you are the one who is having a hard time understanding.

reply to post by Misoir


It's taken years but I think I have finally determined my ATS designated profile in the political spectrum.

I'm a....

"People like you"

That's how I get referred to very frequently anyway "it's people like you"....

So be it! I'm a PLY and proud of it!





[edit on 30-7-2010 by whaaa]

Ok since you now changed the title.

I am not anti-establishment or for the establishment.
Why do you insist on labelling people?

DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!

Originally posted by Misoir

I am just now realizing it but ATS has become a place for single sided politics and debate.

What I am saying is that ATS has become merely a fringe-right network for paranoid libertarians, conservatives, anarchists or whatever anti-government person you are.

Are you a Liberal, Socialist, Communist or Centrist? Well... You're not welcome!

What I have now noticed is that there are very few people who dare to challenge the Libertarian mindset of ATS'ers. If you dare to challenge Capitalism they defend it by saying, "This isn't capitalism this is corporatism". If you dare to support government efforts they say, "Anything government does is by the point of a barrel".

It goes on and on...

I am not asking for people to stop being libertarian or whatever you are, I am just asking to give others a chance to voice their opinions or objections without joining together en mass and attacking them. You have probably chased many intelligent and helpful people into hiding with your assaults, we could have a thriving website with lots of civil debates and beautiful ideas if people were given the chance to voice their ideas in a calm and respectful atmosphere where you may disagree with their opinion but you let them voice it.

You can obviously have a debate where you explain to them your position on the issues, but the era of 'ganging up' and making them feel as if their opinion is meaningless needs to end. When you have a civil community where ALL people are free to voice their opinions and ideals in a safe, free and accepting community then we will expand exponentially and great ideas can be created.

[Hidden in post in secret message] O.k. Fred, Barney, Mike, you get ready to attack on the left flank. Steve, Ralph and Bob you attack from the right flank. Tom, you go right up the middle. Let's confuse and discombobulate this guy so bad he stops posting for a week and needs months of therapy. Ready.. Go.
[/Hidden in post in secret message]


Seriously. I feel you man. A deliberate hateful attack is wrong and shouldn't happen. I think for the most part people do try to have civil discussions but as humans (most of us), emotions do get in the way on issues we feel strongly about and people lose their judgment and objectiveness.

I don't think people try to gang up on others.. I mean, it's not a coordinated effort. I think that certain posts invite an emotional response and you find lots of like minded people tend to jump on board to refute that post.

I think on ATS you have to learn to keep your emotions in check and think first before you post. ask yourself is the wording of this post going to invite discussion or is it only there to tear down someone.

Sadly, I believe we are all guilty of the former at some times.

Originally posted by Misoir
What I have now noticed is that there are very few people who dare to challenge the Libertarian mindset of ATS'ers. If you dare to challenge Capitalism they defend it by saying, "This isn't capitalism this is corporatism". If you dare to support government efforts they say, "Anything government does is by the point of a barrel". And if you dare to challenge their sentiments they attack you as...

A. Ignorant
B. 'Asleep'
C. Sheeple
D. 'Drinking the Kool-Aid'
E. A Threat

Sorry, mate, but this does just come across as a whinge-fest on your behalf because on your own self-confessed political persuasions, and the fact that many on here may disagree with them.

I agree with you that there's no need for insults, but from what I've seen in the liberal/conservative debates, heated words fly on both sides, which appears to be a feature of most talking points on ATS.

Have you ever seen some of the 9/11 debates, atheist/religious ''discussions'' or global warming believers/deniers exchange of views ?!

People from all groups sometimes see themselves as put upon, but the truth of the matter is that if you don't have a victim mentality and don't play ''cards'', then your perception of victimhood, more often than not, will go away !


EDIT TO ADD: I'm sure if anything breaches ATS' terms and conditions, then probably a more prudent option would be to alert the mods.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by Sherlock Holmes]

This thread is an attempt to bolster the image of this forum as being non-establishment grass roots… But those types of forums exist only in name but not in function.

ALL online forums are either set up by the establishment or co-opted by the establishment. The only exception would be smaller non-political/non-religious forums but the establishment intelligence will always have a few usernames present on those forums to monitor and keep in check the political subforums.

reply to post by Misoir


Im a staunch opponent of anti-fact and theoretical topics that won't allow free discussion of all sides.
Recently i opposed a theory and what that got me was replies which tried to persuade me that i was wrong.
Its not enough to post my opinion, someone has to quote it and show me why im wrong. Thats all fine and dandy, your right to do that. However, its done again if i reiterate my stance with further sources.

It turns into a back and forth thing, then the topic turns from reporting something in the news, to a debate about something not always directly on topic.

I find this place is full of people with an agenda or belief, they post saying their not sure, this is what they have found, signs may point to yes, but when you turn around and disagree it goes from that to "i know for a fact deep in my soul i am right and you should believe me or else your an idiot"

I thought this place would be a good place for discussions and debates that actually moved forward, not discussions and debates that sound like "No your wrong cause you suck!"

People are just way to sensitive and can't handle any criticism, that's why ill post sometimes and never return to the topic. Ive said my piece, someone will always disagree. Me arguing over it just makes me look as bad as them.
Within about 5 posts i got the feeling people don't like me around here. I am too honest and straight forward, i am not invested in friendships here so its easy for me to be on the fence and abstain from replying, and, if i have a strong opinion of something i have no problem posting it even if its a reply to a member who is well-respected and has many friends and my disagreement with them will just garner me a lot of enemies i dont need, and only because i disagreed with someone their friends with.

One day a site will come out that wont focus on the "Friends vs Foes" ideal and allow people to post freely and privately while promoting and enforcing factual discussion with fruitful results.

Here, a name is attached to every poster. Guys like Phage are automatically respected and asked to opine without anyone even know who they really are or what knowledge they may have.
When you create an elite class of posters, everyone below them can be discredited easily by the upper-echelon and shunned, even though the poster may be correct. The mistake was disagreeing with the elitist of the organization.

Sound familiar? ATS and its members are no different then any other organization with an agenda. Although they all like to think they are...

(I know, even this post will rub some the wrong way, but i dont care. I spoke my mind, deal with it )

[edit on 30-7-2010 by EspyderMan]

Naw. This is just my opinion, but here's how I see it.

There are groups (not saying who because it applies across the board to one degree or another, and besides, they people who do this know exactly who they are) that just have an agenda, and further, a mission to spread that agenda.

They come from a mindset where they decided there was a "war" on and that the enemy was _insert group name here__. They decided that _insert group name here__ fought dirty, so they decided to "fight" dirty too. In this war, you know? So oftentimes, they're not here for actual thinking and discussion or to learn. They're just here to "spread the word."

So, anyway, they organized and equipped themselves with a bunch of predigested talking points from their leaders and heroes and set out on a mission to get this word out by bombarding people with links canned statements, usually taken out of context, that support these talking points and their views and they think it's "discussion" or "participation."

You can recognize this tactic or theirs pretty easily, and you can also predict what we can expect to be bombarded with by listening to certain radio shows and watching certain TV shows the day before, or keeping an eye on certain blogs.

After a while, you can easily tell where and who this stuff is coming from. It's typically not founded in real news or any real substantiated facts that stand alone. And it's typically chock full of cherry picked "facts" mixed with opinion to support said agenda. Yet it's not couched as opinion. And it's not even in their own words. Not really.

Many who really are here to just spread an agenda can't explain or discuss many of the talking points or even the opinions, and if challenged, typically might get angry and call you _insert label here__. I'll let you decide for yourself who tosses which labels around with the most gusto. These boards are full of examples.

It's a shame that we've gone in this direction too, for so many reasons. For one, everyone soon recognizes the tactics and then reacts (depending on mood or situation) in one of three ways: ignore, laugh/ridicule, or maintain patience.

1. Ignoring is a wash, but it sure can help you maintain your own sanity. If you can grit your teeth and let it go without doing number 2.

2. Laughing.ridiculing does nothing but inflame the situation, especially if some agendists are posting for the first time and don't realize that many here have not only heard the same exact thing hundreds of times but are assuming they know where the "discussion" is heading. It doesn't always head there, but it does so with enough regularity that it causes many people to get jaded about it.

3. Maintaining patience to take the points and attempt to debate or discuss is probably the strength here. It can lead to everyone learning more or seeing things maybe a bit differently or better understanding. Or it can still lead to you being called _insert label here_.

So, yes, some people think they're fighting a "war" against other Americans and ideologies rather than working together with everyone else to fight for our country. They don't see how their tactics might be backfiring or often understand why the more free-thinking among Americans don't agree...with either their tactics or their war of their points. And that's a shame. But don't let it bother or annoy you. Just keep on keeping on. Be you.

reply to post by whaaa


I know what you mean. I'm a liberal pinko commie narrow minded conservative prick with an agenda I'm pushing from my mind.

I'd like to point out I'm on the site for aliens and the crazy conspiracies like George bush is a reptilian alien hybrid. I'm also on here for the philosophical, metaphysical and religious discussions... And I'm Canadian American politics is entertaining... You guys end up hating your president the second he's elected. You can't judge the whole on the actions of a few. I'm quite happy to say I don't fit in any Political Category. I just vote for what ever rich dumb guy who's going to get the job done, as best as he can. As the sang goes never assume because it makes an ass out of U and ME.