ATS = Anti-establishment network

IMO ATS jumped the shark a while back and sort of became a bad complaints forum. Posters with a personal beef about something or someone come here and air it out looking for others to support them. I do not even bother to read 90% of the posts anymore but I do try to flag topics that are more than just another tied rant. The average ATS topic poster seems like a group of unhappy people. Life for them is not working out how they thought it would and they need to blame something other than themselves for their failures.

[edit on 31-7-2010 by zerotime]

reply to post by whatukno


No Wuk, that is the problem with the "socialists, communists, leftists, and centrists" as Misoir described. They try to rationalize slavery as freedom and rewrite definitions.

Freedom is freedom. You are either free or you aren't. There is no PARTIAL freedom, because if that were the case there would still be SOME SLAVERY and CONTROL over the subject. Therefore, the only definition of freedom you need to worry about, is the actualy definition in it's entirety.

free·dom

–noun
1.
the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2.
exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3.
the power to determine action without restraint.
4.
political or national independence.
5.
personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.
6.
exemption from the presence of anything specified (usually fol. by from ): freedom from fear.
7.
the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc.
8.
ease or facility of movement or action: to enjoy the freedom of living in the country.
9.
frankness of manner or speech.
10.
general exemption or immunity: freedom from taxation.
11.
the absence of ceremony or reserve.
12.
a liberty taken.
13.
a particular immunity or privilege enjoyed, as by a city or corporation: freedom to levy taxes.
14.
civil liberty, as opposed to subjection to an arbitrary or despotic government.
15.
the right to enjoy all the privileges or special rights of citizenship, membership, etc., in a community or the like.
16.
the right to frequent, enjoy, or use at will: to have the freedom of a friend's library.
17.
Philosophy . the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination. Compare necessity ( def. 7 ) .

The first three definitions alone are enough to satisfy what freedom is to me. Do the ideologies that Misoir feels are under attack bring about those definitions or do they stand against them?

The answer is that they stand against them, just as this establishment does as well. Therefore, should anything stand against the definitions of the word freedom, then they stand against freedom in its entirety, and they stand as an enemy of mine.

As helpful as health care might have been if done properly, that will never unhinge the fact that it forces people to do things instead of giving them an option.

3. the power to determine action without restraint.

Therefore you, or anyone for that matter can support the health care bill, or any bill which mandates that people do something that they choose NOT to do, and that is fine and dandy. However, you can not support them AND support freedom at the same time. Look at the definition and what I just laid out to you. They are completely defiant to one another. One cancels out the other. You cannot have control and freedom in the same sentence.

Freedom may only be self-evident to the individual, but when the individual is prevented from ever attaining the freedom which they hold to be self-evident, when the powers of tyranny and control stand against that happening... well... you know the rest. It ended in revolution last time.

You may feel that somehow, in this country you are free because of your ideals, but that shouldn't mean that others who might think differently should be prevented that freedom. Sure, the health care bill might not have been bad in your eyes where you obviously define freedom in some other way, but to those that go by definition it is preventing their freedom and they should have the right to that. Either way for you, whether the health care bill passed or didn't pass, you would still be experiencing your self-proclaimed freedom. Those against it, not so lucky.

Thanks, but I really think that getting into a civil war is pretty high on my list of parts of my life that I think that I should rightfully be in control of.

This quote, I enjoy the most. You fail to realize that the only reason war is coming is because so many people have been ignored and sold into the slavery of this country. You don't realize that it is because of some of the tyrannical things that you support, the health care bill for instance, the types of things that DO spit on people's freedoms yet you feel no affect of, these are the things that are leading towards war in this country.

And yes, for lack of a more graceful target, the people who stand to defend tyrannical governments and social control over yours, theirs, and everyones lives - they will not be tolerated. This isn't my choice, this isn't a decision that I make - this is simply the divide that America has come to in these troubling days, the divide that Misoir so states.

But like I stated in more words than necessary in my last post - it isn't a divide between left and right wing politics. It isn't a divide between anarchy and socialism. It isn't a divide between Republican and Democrat. If it is that divide to you, then sadly you are still stuck in the illusion system that they have manufactured for you.

No, the real battle is:

FREEDOM vs. CONTROL

The same battle that has been waging since the first man took up the crown and declared himself ruler over the others. The battle that has been the direct result of EVERY SINGLE civil war and revolution in the history of this planet.

People are made to be free, and when they aren't given that freedom they will always... ALWAYS take it. There is nothing in this universe that is ever going to change that.

[edit on 31-7-2010 by gwydionblack]

Some basic problems with what I have read thus far.

What I am saying is that ATS has become merely a fringe-right network for paranoid libertarians, conservatives, anarchists or whatever anti-government person you are.

It is in all of our natures to be anti-government. This forum is a forum for people trying to get to the bottom of conspiracy's (most of which involve some government official), cover-ups (thats what government does), and alternative topics which vary widely from survivalism to cryptozoology.

Most people on this site have some discontent with whomever they see are the powers that be. Many are anti-government, many are anti-corporation.... some are none or both.

I think a lot of the OP's problems are in perspective. Just as in the Allegory of the Cave, one sees only what is obvious in their own reality tunnel. The OP sees a lot of conservative and libertarian posts because these are the most noted in his/her mind. I see a fairly mixed group. The conservatives and libertarians tend to agree with each other on the biggest issue of the day, the economy, but little else. So it is likely this is what the OP is seeing. From my perspective there is a good mix of righties and lefties and even some anarchists (of all varieties) mixed in .

I remember when the biggest issue of the day was the wars. Liberals and libertarians used to debate conservatives. I remember people from the right saying similar things that the OP said.

reply to post by whaaa

When push comes to shove they won't throw away their vote and vote for a third party.

I would say this is true about some people, but most people that are disenfranchised are too fed up to vote at all.

They will fall in line with the GOP because deep down they worship at the feet of authority figures and who better represents the real authority than the corporate/military/industrial/elitist conservative/GOP side of the aisle.

Hopefully they won't. Historically, most stop voting while others fall in line with the right/left.

I say, don't vote.


Thread recap: I skipped everything whatukno and Common Good said after the first back and forth. Sorry guys, I just don't have the patience.

reply to post by whaaa


Really? That's your reply? I tell the guy he'll be alright, it's a big world there's plenty of room for all of us, and that is stalking?
I stalked him like prey?
I dont know how you processed what you read but I was reassurring him,
I like his post, you've been here long enough to know you need thick skin.
Seriously your reply is prime example of starting crap where none existed.
Noted and reported? Like in the Ghetto's back in 41-42-43?
Shame on you.

reply to post by gwydionblack


See, but I have debated you on this before, and I don't agree with your idea of freedom, because your idea of freedom is very intolerant.

It's either agree with you or die.

That's not freedom, that's extreme totalitarianism. I shouldn't have to submit to your will or die. I don't think anyone else should either. Have to say, your idea of "my view of freedom or you die" doesn't sound like freedom at all.



[edit on 8/1/2010 by whatukno]

reply to post by whatukno


Yeah, yeah. I've heard it all before - how your delusions lead you to be the chosen one, the only one that seems my tyrannical, evil mindset hidden underneath the surface. Thankfully you have that third eye to realize this where no one else can.




Anyway, this topic isn't about me, but apparently it is dead anyway seeing as how no one really has a comment on the OP except for me. What else would you expect from ATS anymore?