Everyday I check the News I SEE THE DEATH OF OCCUPIERS

Firstly I'd like to state that I've been browsing ATS for a few weeks now and am impressed and feel more educated. Though some of the things I read are utter trash there are many sparkling gems of great knowledge and wisdom.

Secondly I'm a US Airman currently deployed to Afghanistan at a random combat outpost. I'd like to report as to the things I've seen here to better inform many of you that support us what we are doing and those who bash us and tell others how "we feel about the war" the truth of everyone I've come across.

I don't claim to know any of the true reasons for this war or what the higher ups are thinking. I only know what I have seen and that is what I'll talk about.

Of the Afghan people I have met and heard of from the other troops here I can confidently say that the vast majority of Afghanistan does not hate us. Most are indifferent and some even like us (or just our money, it's hard to tell sometimes). I've watched our medical staff help small children and old men, regardless of how they feel about us. I've seen the gratitude of the people who we helped dig wells and run electricity. Almost daily our coalition men and women are removing hazards such as road side bombs and mines left by the Soviets. I have no doubt that we are making this country a safer place.

The people against us are the smallest of the minority. Of the 10,000 people I know to be in this valley fewer than 300 are Taliban fighters. Rarely do they ever attack directly. They are only capable of harassment tactics. Elsewhere in the country things are worse but from the things I've heard the number of people against us is relatively small. The truth about the Afghan people is that they are poor. They will support whoever gives them more money, food, help, etc.

It surprised me to hear that many of the people helping uphold this supposed puppet government, as well as many Taliban, fought with our CIA agents and special forces against the Soviets. The people that the Taliban are trying to kill are the very people that fought with them decades ago. The groups in power now were suppressed by the Taliban after the Soviets were defeated. The radical Taliban swept these people aside and set up their own dictatorship. To the Afghan people now is much the same as then but they admit that for the most part they now have more freedoms.

Of the military and civilian folks that I have spoken to, most want to be here. They all have their reasons, some want the money, some want the action, some want to kill people, some want to help people. Believe it or not the armed forces are still a volunteer force. You don't have to serve if you don't want to.

The biggest frustration of the troops here is not being able to defend ourselves. Everywhere I have heard stories of enemies attacking coalition forces but our forces not being able to retaliate effectively because of restrictive rules of engagement. We can't shoot at the school that just shot at us because there may be children there. We can't blow out the cave 20 meters from the point of attack because it's considered a structure that someone could live in (yeah the bad guys are living there). We can't shoot the 2 men with AK-47s sitting right under that tree over there where someone shot at us because they have children with them. This one I understand, but it illustrates a point. The enemy knows our rules and exploits them to get off scott free. This is the biggest frustration of the people here just trying to protect themselves and the Afghan people.

The main points I want to make are that most of the people on the ground here want to be here, we are making a huge difference, and in the 6 months I have been here I have witnessed great acts of violence but even greater acts of compassion. What can I say? This is our messed up, irritating, misreported war.

Also to clear up the question of the language barrier, many of the Afghan people I've met speak English... if only broken at best.

reply to post by oozyism


Justice in the respect for what you speak of should mean the entire human race should be exterminated.

Forget Justice. Justice in this era is to remove the last century from existence. It's been nothing but a long road down hill.

I favor forgiveness over justice. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. What I speak of HAS worked before, and it worked quite well. Gandhi did it with his actions. Justice would be bankrupting England for the jewels stolen from India. Instead Gandhi chose Forgiveness. Forget the wrongs of the past and start over. Martin Luther King did it also. Justice would be a plot of land and a decent home for every black person in America and no taxes for 10 years for the wealth stolen off the backs of the blacks. Instead MLK called for forgiveness. Forget the past. Free the Blacks and move on. Its been done in many places as well.

Justice at the scale we are talking about is not able to be given. Forgiveness and moving on is far better.

Originally posted by righteyered
Those soldiers who were 20 when they died there were only 11 years old when this war started. We're having a generation that grows up only knowing war.

Wow... never thought about it that way!

Nice point of view! star+

Everyday we are over there we will continue to gain more and more enemies until we leave. That is the irony of this bs war on terrorism. We are more in danger than we ever have been before and it will continue.

Dont you think if terrorism was a real threat, there would be extremists bombing and shooting up malls and other heavily populated areas every day? Where are they? Oh, thats right, the underwear bomber or the times square bomber. Both of these idiots couldnt build a bomb if their life depended on it. They were supposed to be trained by the taliban, right?

Over a million lives lost and trillions of our dollars spent and for what? What is it that we have even accomplished so far? In 2009 more american soldiers committed suicide than were killed in battle. Hundreds of thousands of civilians dead.

We have lined the pockets of a good portion of our congress and the many corporations involved. I just dont know when the people will finally wake up and say enough is enough!

as a person who has served in the us armed forces i'll say that not all believe in the reasons for war, but can say i signed up outta high school to advance my early grown up life..... but you are right no reason to be there just saying we don't call the shots we make em but we don't call em get it

Conscience on the Battlefield

by Leonard E. Read
www.thefreemanonline.org...
Conversation of a dying American soldier on a foreign field with his conscience

excerpt
In the first place, please understand that I don’t care to discuss what you call your foreign policy. It is too late for that. The judgment which now concerns you must be rendered on you as an individual – not on parties or mobs or armies or policies or processes or governments. While governments limited to keeping the peace and invoking a common justice are necessary for mortal beings, before Him it is only the quality of individuals that counts. What collective can have any validity for you from now on? In the Temple of Judgment which you are about to enter, Principles only are likely to be observed. It is almost certain that you will find there no distinction between nationalities or between races. A woman is a woman. A child is a child, with as much a right to an opportunity for Self-realization as you. To take a human life – at whatever age, or of any color – is to take a human life. You imply that you feel no personal responsibility for having killed these people. Why, then, did you personally accept the “honors”? According to your notions, no one person is responsible for the deaths of these people. Yet, they were destroyed. Seemingly, you expect collective arrangements such as “the army” or “the government” to bear your guilt. Yet you expect in Everlasting Life the bestowal of personal honors for virtues. Are you not struck with the absurdity of it all? Will you not stand before Judgment unadorned – just as a spirit, a recorded memory and conscience? Is this not all that will be dealt with there? Can there be any other trappings to consider beyond this spirit you are – once a person who lived and had the opportunity to choose between good and evil?

A very good read. I recommend highly.

[edit on 19-7-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by Gorman91

I favor forgiveness over justice.

That is the point, you can't forgive if there is no justice, once again, by justice, I don't mean revenge.

If there is no justice then how can there be forgiveness.

Let me explain:
Someone murders your son, how can you forgive that person if there isn't even a pursuit for justice?

Let me explain, in Islamic law, you can forgive someone who murders, the family has the right to forgive that person, and stop his punishment, but that doesn't mean justice shouldn't be followed at all.

That being said, justice should come first, then forgiveness.

Priority.

As I said, no justice, no peace.

Here is what Charlie had to say about that

I can't believe how ignorant so many of you are. First and foremost, we were in Afghanistan in the 1980's to defeat the USSR. We were allied with the Mujahadeen, and we screwed everything up when we pulled out (Thank Congress). We helped them, then abandoned them, and guess who stepped in to offer what we didn't? Yes, Osama Bin Laden. The hardcore Mujahadeen still held out against Bin Laden, Al-Qaida, and the Taliban though, until we finally came back to help them in the Fall of 2001, and we soundly defeated the Taliban shetans together as allies.

The Mujahadeen of Afghanistan, the REAL Afghan "Freedom Fighters", are still allied with us, and they are on OUR side. Do you understand this? Do you also understand that Afghanistan is made-up of about a dozen different ethnic groups, and only one such group has its members in the enemy Taliban (They're Pashtuns)? Do you also understand that it is our job to help one of the most impoverished, derelict nations in history? They have some of the highest rates of infant mortality, simple disease induced death, and starvation, of any place on Earth!

I challenge each and every member of ATS to read "Three Cups of Tea", and thereafter "Stones Into Schools", and then attempt to come back and tell me that we should still just pull-out and abandon these people during their greatest time of need. I have multitudes of Afghan and Paki friends who are signing up to head over there right now, because they and their families believe in what we are doing. What right do you have to tell them that they are wrong, when they've seen the positive results with their very eyes? I also have an acquaintance in the US Army Special Forces, and he is also going back for his fifth tour-of-duty, because he loves the people over there in Afghanistan, and he saw how much good we have been, and are currently doing.

Anyone who says that our sacrifices in OEF are "worthless", I say that you have no courage to stand up for what is right in this world, and you would rather march down the streets shouting "PEACE", instead of actually taking the action required to truly bring such about. You always talk about revolting against TPTB, and taking up arms if necessary, but you refuse to do just that when the suffering and rampant oppression involves other people. I call that selfishness, and never in the history of the World has there once existed a selfish hero, or Patriot.

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen


What?

The real Mujahideen?

Non of the Mujahideen were your allies, every Afghan hates America, and what it stands for. But we love American people.

Even my mom, who is related to Massoud, doesn't like the US.

No one does, the Afghans were sick of fighting so gave America a chance. What did America do?

You know what America did, America brought corruption back (no corruption under Taliban), America brought drugs back (no drugs under Taliban).

These are the two soul reasons for the resistance/ They are not fighting because they have nothing better to do, they are fighting because that is the last option left for them. They have wifes, kids, families, they all went back to them until... 5 years there was no resistance against the occupation.

And no, the resistance is not just pashtoon, there are Tajiks and even Hazaras are picking arms/

America only cares for its own interests, America has an agenda, it had an agenda when it stepped in to Afghanistan.

While Afghans believed you came to help, after 5 years of occupation they realized it was BS./

But we in ATS knew it was all BS since the occupation began..

We knew Osama bin Laden was gonna be handed over, we knew the US didn't want that, what court was the US gonna try Osama Bin Laden? And with what evidence?

We knew they wanted the drugs to flourish, as a strategic interest for the US, drug wars, where drugs are sent to nations the US thinks will threaten their future domination of this earth.

Iran + Russia.

It is easier to defeat such nations from within, send them drugs, get them addicted, and make it a culture.

The overall agenda is not clear, but we know you didn't go there to bring Democracy, ha haaa haaaaaaa/ Don't even say that/

reply to post by oozyism


Well that's great for your beliefs, but its not mine. Like I said, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. There's a good reason why places like India have had such prolonged peace. They know that justice for the occupiers is not possible, so they forgive. If you need to have justice, it means you have revenge on your heart. It is true. If You desire the punishment of a murderer, if is a form of revenge. Justice is a state-induced punishment for a crime. That is revenge. It's just lawful revenge. If you'd like to get God involved, justice involved God and God alone. For in the end, we are all judged by him.

This is not to say we should let criminals go free and rapists go unpunished. This is to say that if you learn nothing from the crime done to you as a result of the crime you did, justice serves no point. And on a national scale, it has never been done successfully. Never in the history of man has a nation's people felt justice for the actions of their government. It's just not present. Did Rome ever experience Justice for imperialism? No. It collapsed and was forgotten, learning nothing. Did the Europeans ever feel justice for their imperialism in Africa and the middle east? No. They raped until they felt they were done, and left. Did Japan feel justice for its rape of China? No. America took them over for a few years and then let them go. And what of Germany, after WW1. A situation where justice actually was tried to be payed upon the people. What happened? Hitler rose to power and had absolute control of the people's hearts. An attempt to pay justice to Germany for its crimes in WW1 did the complete opposite. it lead to a more war-like Germany. Justice failed miserably. What happened after WW2? occupation, city bombings, etc etc? Germany had no justice payed. It became a dish to serve the Russians and Americans and no one ever cared to pay justice. Those responsible for the Nazi party either ran away, killed themselves, got put in US facilities for technology, and a few were killed, but no way in which can be called justice. Germany felt no justice for its crimes against Europe, genocide, and war. It was just occupied for 40 years and then let off the hook without any punishment.

Justice given to a hole nation has never been successful. And those places were it was tried resulted in an even worst government rising to power causing more destruction.


In the history of the world, nations given forgiveness have always had the best relationship and peace afterwards. Attempts at justice on a national scale have never done anything.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Gorman91]

I can forgive without justice. I forgive those who beat me up in Grammar school. I forgive the douchebags I know in my life. I forgive anyone who shows aggression to me. I have used aggression to break up things, like a loser roommate who tried to throw someone down the stairs. But I forgave him and moved on. Justice is not my place. God delivers justice not me. And if a criminal is doing bad, certainly arrest him. If he learns, good. If he does not and does it again, then what does justice matter? It does nothing. At that point, more than justice is needed. But these are personal matters. Not national ones.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91

And on a national scale, it has never been done successfully. Never in the history of man has a nation's people felt justice for the actions of their government. It's just not present.

That is where your pessimistic ideas comes to light.

Just because it has never been done, doesn't mean it can't be done.

In nation level it is possible, if people are judged individually, not nationally.

You decide to take arms and murder innocent people, even if your general tells you, it is your fault, and you should be punished for it.

Soldiers make the argument that they are tools, that they have no choice, BS. Don't even say that, heck in that sense, any gang member who goes rapes a 12 year old girl to join the gang, can use the same argument.

I still don't agree with your point of forgiveness.

If you forgive, then there can't be any change, hence bad people will continue raping because they know they will be forgiven.

Evil people will continue murdering, because they know they will be forgiven.

In regards to India, no, the Brits didn't leave India because of Ghandi, the Brits loved Ghandi because he didn't call for justice, and the murder of the horrifying crimes committed against Indian people by the Brits.

Any killer, rapist, murderer, thief, etc would love the victim to just say, leave me along, don't do it again.

Forgetting justice, if I was in the Brits shoes, I would give all the credit to Ghandi, that way hoping in the future if I do crime, the victim may act the same way Ghandi and his followers did.

Ghandi is loved by the oppressors, because the oppressors want their victims to act in the same manner as him.

reply to post by oozyism


Well there's your own fallacy. He who learns nothing from forgiveness is DEFINABLY not going to learn anything from justice. But he who learns from forgiveness needs no Justice. Evil people are evil and will not change no matter what. That is why they are evil.

And rest assured. The second you punished a soldier, their soldier buddies would defend him. It's in their training. It is how they are brought up. One of the most problematic problems in schools IS gangs. Gangs act as one. That is why they are so damn annoying. Rarely does one break off, and he is usually shot dead.

Forgiveness is far better. For when I was given forgiveness and told not to do it again by my father, I learned far better. When I was spanked, I learned nothing. In fact, the pain made me want to rebel ever more. Indeed my father saw this and stopped hitting me, and instead talked. No punishment, just talking. That did it, and I so listened to my father's words.

Rest assured there are millions upon tens of millions like me. Punishment WILL NOT WORK. We respond to justice and punishment and the likes with anger and respond with greater works of violence in vengeance. I know this is wrong But I cannot help myself. I don't get hit, even if I'm wrong. Or I will make your life a living hell. Talk to me, and I will listen and change my ways.

You are dealing with a different culture. Better put, different cultures, with an S.


So to you I ask a simple question. How do you perform justice upon anyone in the west when the very culture says to resist it? How would you do justice to me and my kind if we will not listen?

Lock us all up and make us a prison state? That will not work.

That IS why our prisons are far overpopulated. It is in our culture.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91

How do you perform justice upon anyone in the west when the very culture says to resist it? How would you do justice to me and my kind if we will not listen?

Lock us all up and make us a prison state? That will not work.

That IS why our prisons are far overpopulated. It is in our culture.

The prisons are over populated because prisoners are becoming institutionalized.

They live most of their lives in prison, and outside they are isolated therefore go back to what they were doing before, hang with people who are isolated like themselves, which are mostly gang members, criminals, drug addicts etc.

My brother went to prison for 3 years, ex gang member, stabbed a person 6 times, luckily the person didn't die, but called for self defense, still got manslaughter and spent three years in Jail, from the age of 17-20.

In that three years, his family didn't abandon him, even though he even stole from his family, we didn't abandon him.

Once again, when I say justice, I don't mean revenge, justice doesn't mean an eye for an eye.

As I said previously, when you look for justice, you find the truth, which is much more soothing, and much better to know, than not to know. Once you know, the family member of the victim, or the victim can decide whether he/she wants to forgive or not.

My family looked for justice, every time something gone missing, we found out it was my brother, we didn't punish him, we forgave him, and now he is a changed man. He is an independent man, living in his own house, with his mrs, working hard, avoiding trouble etc.

You don't avoid the road to justice because of forgiveness. They both exist side by side with each other.

reply to post by oozyism


Can't say I believe you. because justice is revenge. maybe it is limited, but it is still revenge. If justice was truly to be given, humanity would not exist, for it does not have a justification to exist.

Like I said. I don't learn from justice. I learn from forgiveness. I have never learned by being punished for something I did. I have only learned by being talked to. The whole country is the same. Your very words prove it. They get out of jail and go right back in. What is justice doing? Nothing. If someone actually talked to them and got them to understand why it is wrong, it would be far better. I have had talks with soooo many gang members and it is always better to have a logic debate and show how flawed their logic is. I don't think I have ever seen justice work in my life. People murdered and no one cares. You go to jail, so what? You read, you learn, you get out.

So now you HAVE to explain to me. How can justice be done on a national scale if no one ever learns from it? What did anyone ever learn from it?

reply to post by Gorman91


You are making the assumption that most people don't learn from justice, that is by far not true.

People avoid crime, because....

I don't think you have met gang members, if you had, I don't think you would say what you just said.

Most gang members are high on P, or have smoked too much drugs and alcohol to even think properly. I have been there done that, I had to get out of the gang in order to straighten my life. I smoked weed every day, 4 times a day, sometimes with the boys 10 times a day, who knows. I drank in daily bases, because money comes, money goes, that was my moto. I tried P couple of times, but saw what it did to the elders, how they look so old, and act damn crazy. I mean common, my mate is 25 and his face looks like 45. He has been smoking P since he was 18.

Although some are smart and haven't lost that much brain cell, most are violent, more so unpredictably violent.

All of that being said, once again, justice doesn't mean revenge.

Justice can also mean forgiveness, that is also justice, because ultimately it should be up to the victim whether he/she wants to forgive or not. It is absolutely idiotic to say everyone should be forgiven.



Let's cut it down:

Do you agree that the victim should choose whether the perpetrator should be forgiven or not?
Do you think justice should play any role in human affairs or not?

reply to post by oozyism


If you do a crime, you should do the time, of course. But that's just for practicality in modern society. We all see people revolt.

I do not view prison as a place to be locked up, however. It should be a place to talk to and be de-processed. Most people in prison, like you said, have gang mentality and don't understand why they are wrong. They should be in prison to be talked to until they understand they are wrong. More importantly, why. Then they can be released. Minimum one year, of course. After that, if they do something bad again, same thing. Third time? Your put away for life, end of story.

It would not be punishment. It would not be justice. It would be "you are wrong, and this is why. Accept that."

Justice never did anything for me, nor the ones I know.

And yes, I have talked to "gangstas". Got them quite stirred up sometimes. But you can't shoot someone at school, now can you? I'm no fool to go to them in their "hoods". I will call them out, however, on the spot when they are near me. I had a friend who did the same thing. it was damn fun to watch them squirm and try to defend themselves, ultimately accepting being wrong.


So do I believe if the victim should be able to chose forgiveness or not? Sure, that's logical. But even if they forgive in the beginning, they must be talked to. Walked through their choices. I could care less if the victim forgives the person or not. That is their personal decision and outside the rule of law. I am more interested in making the person understand why they were wrong. I've done this with assailants before. Even my own father, as he learned from me why discipline does not work on me physically. Verbally, however, it does. In high school I recall talking to a gangster. He'd spit on me a lot. But we became the best of friends once I taught him why he was wrong. I recall the same all the way back in grammar school with "wannabe" little 12 year old fake gangsters. Talking worked. Fights did not.

Do I believe justice has any place in human affairs? No. Because if Justice was truly carried out, we would all be dead. Justice is God's work in the end, not man's. Man's job is to educate his lesser knowing man why he is wrong with words, not discipline him, nor justice nor violence nor revenge. Talk to the person. Get in their head. Make them know. If that fails, they are in until they learn. If they do, they're out with some final observations. If they fail upon a third time of this, they are in forever. That is what you might call justice. I would maybe call if Social justice. More appropriately I would call it reeducation. And indeed, not all reeducation is bad.

Try watching some shows or something and look at police as they arrest someone and talk to them. In most cases, the person learns more in those few minutes before being brought "downtown" then he will in the years he spends in prison.

Glad to see you clean lad. But I want you to think. Did talking to yourself and contemplating the consequences make you quit pot and the gangs, or did some sort of justice?

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91

Glad to see you clean lad. But I want you to think. Did talking to yourself and contemplating the consequences make you quit pot and the gangs, or did some sort of justice?

When I found out my girl was pregnant I immediately tried to change.

I already knew what I was doing was wrong, just like most criminals and gangstas, but that is the whole point, to join a gang, you must be the badest of the bad.

You must step and fight someone for no reason, everyone knows that is bad, why would you fight someone for no reason.

First time I joined my gang, I had to fight the gang to prove my balls, I stepped against 6 people, I only managed to throw one punch, then I got grabbed from the back, got the beating of my life, well not my life cause I been through worse, but you know, cut eye, cut lip, bottled head etc.

I can send you a picture of my head when I got hammered in a gang fight.

The point is, some have the culture of being bad, and specially gangsta, they believe being bad is good, it gives them what they want, a family, women, money, lots of money, drugs, alcohol, cars etc.

When my mrs got pregnant, I thought about the future, what would happen to my son, she wouldn't even tell me she was pregnant for the fear that I might leave her, I saw her Stomach growing bigger, I didn't tell her, but I knew.

If you know most girls like her, they have a trick up their sleeves when they don't want a baby, I didn't know at first she was gonna go that road, but she did. She started getting drunk more often and drunk mostly 40% and above, that hit me, so I had to talk to her, she stopped drinking, couple of days after that = miscarriage.

I changed because of fear, fear of justice, what would happen if I go to prison, and I have a son who doesn't even know me. One of my young recruits, I took care of him, and his family, his dad was the leader of Head Hunters in West Auckland patch. His dad in prison, he only met his dad recently, when he came out.

I can go on with these stories, but my point still is the same as before:
Justice and forgiveness, not just forgiveness, or just justices.

They should be together, and it is under the law, whether you want to forgive or not. Here in New Zealand they say, do you want to press charges?

reply to post by oozyism


But look at yourself. You thought to yourself and your future and realized the larger implications of your actions. Many do not and go on. In prison they learn nothing.

And maybe you are not defining your terms correctly. You were not fearing justice for prison is not justice. Prison is recuperation and learning. Justice, as it is defined as justice, would be you being finned for the amount of drugs you had. Justice would be a stamp on your head for all to know you were a druggy and to be banned from promotion for the number of years of life you stole from your underlings in the gang.

You are not describing justice. You are describing repentance. What the Christians call Fasting, or what the Jews call Day of Atonement. It is not Justice for you did not have anything but the knowledge of what you were doing and its affects.

If what you said is truly true, what your mrs did would not have changed you. For if you did what you knew was wrong, then you still would do wrong to her. But you did not. Is it not safe to say you sought repentance for the soul of the child you never knew? For the underlings you knew? For the knowledge your wrongs were causing other's wrongs?


This is not Justice. As Justice would be the years you stole from them being taken from you somehow. What is taken is given and what is given is taken. That is justice.

If you HAD been arrested right then and there after this change, would you have had a purpose for prison? Would you not have learned your wrongs already before?

I think you and I have not been using the same definition.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91


NZ > Ministry of Justice > That is where you are judged, and sentenced.

That is New Zealand justice.

If you drive too fast, they give you a ticket.

I'm talking about justice in New Zealand context.

Islamic context completely different.

Here is what I think justice is ultimately:

When you make an oath, and an agreement with your fellow citizens, that these are the acts you will forbid yourself from, and that if you do these acts these are the punishments you will receive and accept.

Once you break that oat, and agreement, justice is to be followed, except, if the people you made the agreement with, forgives you.

Get it?

And about my Mrs, she did that to me, I never got to meet my son, and know how it feels, therefore reflected upon that thought, and took it forward and put my son in my position, and how would he feel if he never met me, if justice is served on me (and I got to prison).

I made the agreement to abide by NZ law.