An Open Letter To Christian Fundamentalists

This is geared towards Christian Fundamentalists, but applies to all people who follow some form of religious dogma.

1. If one exists, they all exist: Nobody can actually prove or disprove the existence of your God. It is an emotional and spiritual thing. So I’ll meet you half-way and say your God, with a doubt, exists. But you have to meet me the other half and say that other gods exist as well. Believing in God is the same thing as believing in Zeus or Odin or Moloch or Vishnu or [insert any mythical god or creature].

2. THE BIBLE IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD: Yes, yes you can say it's the word of God for worshiping purposes, but the truth is the modern bible's structure was created by committee. Specifically a committee of men who lived long, long after the time of the bible and had the task of creating a unified book from a collection of accounts and stories -- some of which existed concept-for-concept in other religions that predate Christianity. They also voted against including some texts into canon. So, because of these men, some writings became the word of God while others became blasphemous ONLY because they were not in the official version (not because they were actually evil). Also, the sheer fact that there are different versions of the bible should tell you that something is amiss. But if you accept point #1, then this point doesn't matter so much because other people can believe in other gods.

3. LOGIC WILL NOT DESTROY YOUR FAITH: There is stuff in the bible that does not make a lick of sense in a modern context. Everyone knows it. But admitting to it won't affect your faith. In fact, if you just accept point #2 above, then this whole issue becomes moot, too. Accept that the bible has inconsistencies and bat-sh*t crazy notions because it was written by man (with all his faults). That way God, His actual words, and His infinite wisdom are shielded from our dumbness and inability to write down stuff correctly. See how that works? You already believe man is flawed. Adding this little bit keeps the word of God pure and yet still as mysterious as his motives, just like how you want to believe anyway. However if you just can't see fit to come on board with points 2 and 3 please don't try to explain or assume to tell me what you think God meant, because...

4. YOU ARE NOT GOD: I am sick and tired of believers spouting out what they think God means or trying to interpret God's motivations. If you've ever said the words "what I think God meant by that was..." then you are the same kind of douche bag as the douche bag who said Hurricane Katrina happened because of "the gays". God is GOD and you're just a human being. Not only can you not begin to understand God's plan, you shouldn't even presume to try. To do so would be blasphemous (prideful). So if your child asks you why God lets bad things happen to good people your answer should be a humble shrug. Do not say that God is rewarding or punishing anybody because you can't possible know. YOU wanted to believe in Him. But part of the deal is that you have to admit He's all-knowing and all-powerful...and you are not.

5. ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR RELIGION ENTIRELY: Sure Christianity has inspired some pretty awesome stuff, from art to philosophy to science. But your religion is also responsible, and continues to be responsible for, some heinous crap. I won't list them because everybody knows at least one evil thing the church has been a part of. Don’t say “yeah, but that’s them, that’s not the religion I believe in”. That can't fly. That's like saying you love pizza, except the pizza you like to eat replaces dough with noodles. That's lasagna, not pizza. Either you ARE a believer and you must account for everything past and present your religion has done or you are not a believer. You only get to wear the jersey if you’re on the team, and the team wins and loses together.

Just wanted to get this off my chest. Thanks for your time.

excellent points sir, i give you a star. ive argued many of the same points this very day in other threads as well..

reply to post by Blender Ace

1. If one exists, they all exist: Nobody can actually prove or disprove the existence of your God. It is an emotional and spiritual thing. So I’ll meet you half-way and say your God, with a doubt, exists. But you have to meet me the other half and say that other gods exist as well. Believing in God is the same thing as believing in Zeus or Odin or Moloch or Vishnu or [insert any mythical god or creature].

Nope wrong. Only one truth. I thought everyone knew that.

Text4. YOU ARE NOT GOD: I am sick and tired of believers spouting out what they think God means or trying to interpret God's motivations. If you've ever said the words "what I think God meant by that was..." then you are the same kind of douche bag as the douche bag who said Hurricane Katrina happened because of "the gays". God is GOD and you're just a human being. Not only can you not begin to understand God's plan, you shouldn't even presume to try. To do so would be blasphemous (prideful). So if your child asks you why God lets bad things happen to good people your answer should be a humble shrug. Do not say that God is rewarding or punishing anybody because you can't possible know. YOU wanted to believe in Him. But part of the deal is that you have to admit He's all-knowing and all-powerful...and you are not.

I'm sick and tired of people who say their sick and tired of something or the other on ATS. As if everyone is supposed to consider what you might be growing sick and tired of .

Flash

Nobody cares what YOU are sick and tired of. I know I don't.

Also what kind of a lead is, " There is stuff in the Bible"? Do you consider at all how you sound when you post a sentence like that?

Mild or not you need to work on that delivery. Pal. K?

[edit on 9-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


Classic case of Ad Hominem from a Fundamentalist.
Instead of contributing hostility, why not actually give a (good) argument?

The OP, IMHO, came off pretty mild. Whatever insults were flung should be treated like a shoe. If it fits, wear it. If not, what's the problem?

So what are your arguments?

[edit on 7/9/2010 by impaired]

I agree with what you have stated, but by stating this to religious people would probably not get you to far. I am not religious, and though I do not worship the G-d that most do, I do NOT dispute a creator, I just don't claim to represent it, I have not been given the proper information to make such a claim.

I have had lots of conversations with religious people and have come to realize that disputing the bible, or what the church says, is taken very seriously and even as an attack on people on a personal level. Though some can point out blatant inconsistencies in the bible, some people find a way to explain it, as if saying instead of you misrepresenting something written so long ago, you as a religious person, and having a personal relationship with G-d, you have a first hand account on what it meant to say.

When I think of what religion teaches of blasphemy, and being a false prophet, false idols, etc. That people who make such claim as to say, I KNOW, that I am praising the right G-d, and reading the word correctly, and I know where I'm going, is committing all of the above "sins".

We don't know who has it right, we might not in our lifetimes, but I will play the card that I was dealt, claiming to have knowledge of the unknown is a form of ego, and not of the creator that I'm sure people all think they are worshiping, as far as I'm concerned, I don't need a book, or a man, or a church to tell me to be good. BTW I think that anyone who needs a book to tell them to be good, doesn't need a book to tell them to be bad. IMO reading the bible or being indoctrinated into religion as a child is when evil is really realized, these things are what tells us evil can take over us and make us do bad things.

Be a good person, help others around you, realize that there are more people struggling on this planet than we ever thought, and make sure your heart never grow weary for your fellow man.


Peace to you...

I wouldn't consider myself a Christian fundamentalist, but I am a Christian, so I will give my opinion of your points:

1. Fair enough, in the bible it was referenced not to have any other gods before Him, so apparently there are other gods. Perhaps its not until we put faith into something else does the "magic" or "mystique" of these gods manifest. It begs the question, what purpose do these gods have in one god's creation? Can they interfere? Are they hear to watch? mislead? enlighten? Can they undue one god's creation? I happen to worship the God of the Abrahamic faith, because there is none greater than He.

2. Well this is your opinion, and fair enough. You are using logical reasoning for this and I must say my point would require suspension of belief for those that don't believe in God. I believe an all-knowing God would be able to leave a legacy behind for us to follow. I believe he could preserve His word to be untainted, to be written by man so that we may know the Truth. However the chain of events through history that would occur for this to happen, for the men able to exist to write, for the book to be preserved for generations, even for that committee you had talked about to be able to come to a conclusion of what books would be included. Like I said a suspension of a belief for many, but its either all or nothing right? Which bring me to your next point....

3. Perhaps not much makes sense but a lot can be lost through translation. We do live in a lot different world these days, technology and science seems to replace a need for any God to begin with, but it has not affected my faith in the least bit sense. I happen to enjoy advances in modern science so long as it benefits mankind as a whole and not serve to benefit some narcissistic fantasy.

4. And yes I am not God. This is what reinforces point 2 for me. Who am I to say how he would communicate with us? Perhaps he cannot interfere with his creation so much that it would destroy or undue it? Maybe thats why he had to take form of a man and insert himself into the scheme of things to show the right way to live, which is, live and let live. Love all. Do not judge.

5. Sure Christianity has been the cause of a lot of things. But men do these things. Men use belief systems to justify there actions. However I argue that those men aren't true Christians. People don't want beliefs shoved down their throats, and I can understand that. I get annoyed when people preach to me. I dont need it. I am friends with people of all walks of life. Atheists and agnostics, believers, and even scientologists. If you accept me and love me as a person, than by all means be my friend and lets enjoy life together for what it was meant to be. To spread love.

Ya I definitely don't consider myself to be a fundamentalist at all. Thanks for the post.

reply to post by randyvs


Just wondering, why the change of heart? You were not this obsessed with Christianity a year ago? By that I mean you did not defend the religion like you do now.

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior


But I thought it was all or nothing with religions - especially the Abrahamic religions. No deviation is acceptable.

Very nice post, btw.

Originally posted by randyvs
Nobody cares what YOU are sick and tired of. I know I don't.

Then why, oh why, even bother to post a reply? But thanks. Now we both know how each feels.

Also what kind of a lead is, " There is stuff in the Bible"? Do you consider at all how you sound when you post a sentence like that?

I did consider it. I was shooting for conversational and approachable versus authoritative.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Endtime Warrior. One particular part I'd like to discuss:

But men do these things. Men use belief systems to justify there actions. However I argue that those men aren't true Christians.

But this fluidity is my problem. Who are you to say that one person is a Christian and some other person is not? If two people both believe they are Christian, then I argue either both are correct or both are not Christian.

My question isn't a desire to arrive at "the truth". I don't really care which of you is a real Christian (certainly God will sort that out). But rather my question is a desire to invoke some introspection on religious believers. You don't get to decide who is a real Christian. So I maintain you HAVE to accept the good and the bad.

reply to post by Blender Ace


Well thats simple really blender.... We will know them by their fruits (actions)

Anyone can say they are anything, and do exactly the opposite. Men lie. Indeed I can't control that. But a true christian does not judge. A true christian follows what christ does. Didn't Jesus Christ embrace everyone, believers and non-believers alike? Its sad to see man twisting god's word to his way of living.

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior

But you're already arguing from the stand point that you are a true Christian. That's not something we can tangibly prove. You believe you are. The other guy believes he is. Only the person who gets into heaven is right.

So in the meantime -- in the present here and now -- I think you both should be grouped together as Christians one and all.

Originally posted by Blender Ace
reply to post by The Endtime Warrior

 

But you're already arguing from the stand point that you are a true Christian. That's not something we can tangibly prove. You believe you are. The other guy believes he is. Only the person who gets into heaven is right.

So in the meantime -- in the present here and now -- I think you both should be grouped together as Christians one and all.

No, all I am saying that it takes more than a label to understand a person's true intent. Fair enough right? And further more, I really don't need to prove it to you. I don't need you to believe it. If you're only problem with my reply is that we have different beliefs about what a true christian is, than we'll just have to agree to disagree. Really nice post btw.

[edit on 7/9/2010 by The Endtime Warrior]

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior


I would agree that a label does not equal a person's true intent. But I'm not talking about true intent. That's intangible. Nor am I asking for you to prove anything to me.

Sure we disagree on what a true Christian is. But we're just people. Only GOD know who the real Christian is, so you shouldn't presume to be more true than that other "false Christian".

What I am asking is that, all things being equal (and unable to prove otherwise) you accept that the person who labels himself a Christian IS in fact a Christian like you. YOU can believe that a person isn't a real Christian, but you're only guessing (even if you use biblical verse to make your point). So either you're with the team or YOU are the one who isn't a true Christian.

reply to post by Blender Ace


ok we agree to disagree then. I am on a team in your eyes. I do not belong to a team because I came into this world alone, and I will leave alone, with my own thoughts and ideas. Have a good day!

Hence my initial post.

I feel it's a darn shame that Christians can't seem to apply a little sensibility to their belief system. I know the jaded of us will point out how that's an oxymoron. But I don't think it has to be.

So odd, you Christians.

Edit to add this: P.S. - Thank you for at least arriving at the conclusion that you are not a Christian.

[edit on 9-7-2010 by Blender Ace]

reply to post by Blender Ace


Thanks, turning the other cheek now. Gotta run and play smash bros now, its been fun really!

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior


Turning the other -- wait what? I'm not trolling here. I really am trying to understand this unusual behavior.

Ah well. I can't beat Smach Bros.

I just don't know where I went wrong with Endtime Warrior.

1. God is omnipotent/omniscient = we agree.
2. Only God can judge who is a "true" Christian = we agree.
3. Humans can only speculate on "trueness" (see #2) = sort of agree
4. Because of #3 anyone who calls himself a Christian is correct by default = not agree.

Anybody? What went wrong here?

Ooops

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