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Will you believe 100 leading economists or Obama?

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posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 04:25 PM
Trust your common sense and your instincts with regards to what you hear about the stimulus and our economy. Look around you, talk to your friends and family and talk to your neighbors about your local outlook. What do you see and hear? Is there talk of uncertainty or just a simple I don't know yet or just a not sure??

I certainly don't trust the rhetoric being spewed by the WH and all of those in congress who voted for stimulus and who continue to advance policies that are bad for this country. All the while, ignoring the voice of the people.

early 100 prominent U.S. economists including former CBO Director Douglas Holtz-Eakin, Ohio University’s Richard Vedder, and James C. Miller, III, who headed up the White House Office of Management and Budget under Ronald Reagan, are telling President Barack Obama that his economic stimulus has failed and that “immediate action is needed to rein in federal spending.”

In a letter to the president in which they refer to the latest jobs figures as “a source of disappointment and alarm,” the distinguished economists who signed it echo the concerns of others that the predominant share of the jobs created in May 2010 were temporary government jobs while the civilian labor force shrank by 322,000. “In addition,” they write, “46 percent of those out of work have been jobless for six months or longer--the first time in history that such a dire statistic has been recorded for the American economy.”

There are, they say, a series of hurdles ahead on the road to economic recovery including the new burdens being placed on small business by the federal government, the threat of tax hikes, and the newly-enacted healthcare law, which will discourage hiring, increase the deficit and, the chief actuary of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services recently concluded, raise healthcare costs.

There is enough criticism to spread around to congress as well...

Obama is not alone in being singled out for criticism of his handling of the economy. The letter also references Congress's failure to propose a budget for “the first time in modern history.”

“Such a failure will mark a massive missed opportunity to help our economy grow and create private-sector jobs. Failing to restrict spending growth will further balloon the national debt, impede economic growth, and threaten our nation's long-term economic health,” they write.

What is needed, they say, is a new direction for U.S. economic policy.

“To support real economic growth and provide the spark needed to support creation of private-sector jobs,” the letter, which was made public Thursday by House Republican Leader John Boehner, says “immediate action is needed to rein in federal spending, prevent job-killing tax hikes through the expiration of current tax rates, and reverse the harmful effects of the health care law on small businesses, the engine of job creation in our economy.” [See which industries donated the most to Boehner.

The letter

Is it any wonder that Obama is slipping in approval ratings among independent voters? Many of these voters threw Obama just enough rope to get himself elected. Unfortunately for Obama, that same rope is just long enough to hang himself.

Uncertainty is the new buzzword for our current economic state.

There is one word being mentioned by business leaders and economists more frequently when the conversation turns to why jobs are not returning more quickly to the U.S. economy: uncertainty.

“By reaching into virtually every sector of economic life, government is injecting uncertainty into the marketplace and making it harder to raise capital and create new businesses,” said Verizon CEO Ivan Seidenberg at a speech in Washington in late June.

Federal Reserve Governor Kevin Warsh said in a recent speech in Atlanta: “Owing to a less-than-assured economic outlook and broad uncertainty about public policy, employers appear quite reluctant to add to payrolls.”

Roberton Williams, senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center, said in an interview, “The whole tax situation is very much in flux, very uncertain. It makes it hard to plan.”

“It’s clear that firms are not yet hiring. A lot of them are sitting on big bundles of cash,” Williams said, citing the examples of Google and Apple, which are both hoarding about $30 billion in cash instead of investing it or using it to expand.

I suggest you hold onto your cash as well. If you have any. Mortgage rates are at an all time low and the only people applying for them are those who wish to refinance not buy.

The essence of the uncertainty argument is that businesses won’t expand or hire because Obama’s policies – particularly the health care bill and the financial regulation bill that is poised to pass – have created too many unknown unknowns, as conservative author Amity Shlaes put it.

“We don’t know what to expect from Washington. That’s essentially what Seidenberg is saying,” said Shlaes, author of the influential book “The Forgotten Man,” which argues that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s punitive and unpredictable policies toward business prolonged, rather than solved, the Great Depression.

UNCERTAINTY!! That word describes my feelings to a tee!!

[edit on 7-7-2010 by jibeho]

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 04:58 PM
Ross Perot was correct in 1992
when he was running for president.
He said NAFTA would be the downfall
of America. He was laughed at and rebuked
and called a nut.

Who's calling him a nut now ????

He warned us.

Expel all illegal immigrants
Secure the border
Promote US Manufacturing again
and we might have a chance.
Else, current path = Epic Fail

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 05:16 PM
Dont think America is going to recover to be honest, its pretty much a failed state.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 05:38 PM
reply to post by boondock-saint

Ross Perot was correct in 1992 when he was running for president. He said NAFTA would be the downfall of America. He was laughed at and rebuked and called a nut. Who's calling him a nut now ???? He warned us. Nullify NAFTA IMMEDIATELY Expel all illegal immigrants Secure the border Promote US Manufacturing again and we might have a chance. Else, current path = Epic Fail

I agree....Free Trade with China is actually hurting us far worse...they took most of the manufacturing as they kept their tariffs high while we dropped ours to damn near nothing. They are also manipulating their currency and keeping it undervalued which is also hurting us severly.

But anyway...yes...I do agree!!!! To hell with NAFTA and Free Trade. We need FAIR TRADE to protect American workers!!!

Why won't Americans unite on this? This is what WE NEED!!!! Nothing else will matter and we will crumble under these absolutely INSANE trade policies.

People just don't seem to understand.....yes...prices will go up on many products...except for food as we obviously should never tariff food....that's a given IMO.

Anyway, prices will go up...people will quit buying S they don't really need....and at the same time....AMERICAN BUSINESSES can say, "Hey, I can put people to work and beat that price and make a profit...and still give my workers a DECENT WAGE!!!"

THIS IS WHAT WE NEED DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is what makes a strong economy...a STRONG middle class!!!

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 05:40 PM
We all learn about countries that were ruled by corporations yet we continue to count ourselves are better than them.

Either we become "one world" as a people or we quit buying into the marketed vision of "one world" that is globalization and resource domination by the corporations.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 05:42 PM
Anyway, concerning the 100 economists...

How many of them predicted the bank bailouts? The mortgage crisis? The great recession??????


(I'm not saying Obama is right btw....but why trust economists who don't seem to now S anyway?

[edit on 7-7-2010 by David9176]

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 05:46 PM
Im glad tosee you have the Verizon CEO info in there. I just heard about him and that.

This whole econmy mess, is-dare I say- to late to fix. The immigration issues-to big to and messed up to fix (normal/peaceful ways) and on and on BUT

We do have US. Me and you(s). I have a terrible feeling our citizens blood will run in the streets all across America but, we will be the victors and we will save Ameica.

It won't be what we knew it to be-but it will be ours to rebuild. The good think is the numbers/masses are on our side. They just need to be woken up -which has begun-Thanks to Obama.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 05:49 PM
reply to post by jibeho

Let me be very clear on this - if America reigns in spending and does not provide a massive stimulus to create jobs - then America will collapse entirely. It is that simple.

Yes there is a massive coordinated effort by the corporate right wing to push the republican agenda and reign in spending in order to further destroy the hopes of avoiding a depression in order to destroy the lives of millions of Americans and pus them to the Republicans.

Without massive spending and job creation - America is absolutely stuffed.

It is economics 101 that you need to raise taxes and increase spending in order to redistribute wealth in order to stimulate the economy and raise demand - its that simple - its basic logic.

I know there is a vast amount of propaganda regarding lowering taxes in order to stimulate the economy - however all evidence - empirical and a priori points to the fact that this is utterly false.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 05:52 PM
reply to post by David9176

I agree. Where were these brilliant minds leading up to this crisis? Pushing for globalization, most of them, and the tearing down of trade barriers.

We do need to become more protectionist. I dont care if economists and capitalists dont like it. "The free market" (which we dont have, and never had) could work in theory, but the "Wealth of Nations was written assuming competing groups, (nations) and suggested that the nation that had a truly competitive market at home would do better than those that didnt.

What that thinking did NOT lend itself to was the idea of huge, behemoth companies larger than nations controlling resources all over the globe and tearing apart nations to suit themselves, and rewriting laws in said nations to control competition.

And yet these brilliant economists have somehow concluded that this could happen and all would be well. This was never the formula for economic success, and while they are right, our economy is still tanking, a fifth grader could have told us that at this point.

I didnt vote for Obama, but blaming this mess on him is getting tiresome. He didnt cause it, its unlikely the Republicans would be doing anything better than he is, and our problems go much much deeper than which corporate sponsored political party currently holds office.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 06:06 PM
reply to post by Aristophrenia

the only way to stimulate private sector job creation is to create incentives for risk. Lower taxes on business and a looser credit market, eased by regulations is the only thing that we can do at this point. Government stimulus is going to be another disaster, which is why most of the world is turning away from Keynesian economics - it does not work.

The current stimulus did not create significant private sector jobs and a second one won't.

The current tax policy will have exactly the wrong effect by taxing capital creation and investment. Why on earth would you raise the capital gains taxes with the equity markets are so volitile? Like everyone else, I will pull out of equities at the end of the year and pay the 15% capital gains, as will most institutional investors. The markets will tank in the fourth quarter.

You want to get the economy on track? Eliminate the income tax and move to a flat tax on consumption, including for corporates. Were they to do that, the DOW would hit 20K and we'd be out of debt in 10 years. There are two reasons that will not happen. First the juice associated with the current income tax is massive with the lawyers, accountants so heavily invested and tossing massive spiff to politicians. Second, a flat tax provides for more economic autonomy for individuals and actually incents wealth creation and thrift, that separates the winners from the losers in our system and the current socialist model is all about creating as many losers as possible who have to turn to the government for everything.

As far as NAFTA goes, I would like to hear one positive thing that NAFTA accomplished. Jobs have been lost and the other thing it was supposed to accomplish was the enrichment of Mexico. With all of the corruption in Mexico, all NAFTA did on that front was enrich criminals. Had NAFTA worked, millions of Mexicans would not be flowing over the border.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 06:15 PM
I'm sorry to have to crap in your cornflakes, but...

Paul Krugman, professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University, and receiver of the Nobel Prize in Economics, sees it opposite what those economists say. They are obviously believers in conservative economics.

Krugman wrote just today:

Truly, we live in a time of mass delusion — or maybe make that elite delusion — where there are lots of things that everyone believes, without a shred of evidence to back that belief. Here’s one more: everywhere you go, you encounter the claim that businesses aren’t investing, they’re just sitting on piles of cash, because they’re worried about future government policies.

There is, of course, a much more prosaic alternative: businesses aren’t investing because they have lots of excess capacity. Why build new structures and buy new machines when you’re not using the ones you already have?

So is there anything in the data suggesting that we need to invoke fear of government to explain low investment? Not a bit.

And on July 4th he wrote:

Republicans have made the cynical calculation that blocking anything President Obama tries to do — including, or perhaps especially, anything that might alleviate the nation’s economic pain — improves their chances in the midterm elections.

This is exactly what I have been witnessing since Jan. '09. Republicans are so bent on regaining power they are willing to burn this whole M*ther F*cker down.

Krugman goes on to say:

as I and others have been arguing at length, penny-pinching in the midst of a severely depressed economy is no way to deal with our long-run budget problems.

And who the hell does republican leadership think they are even discussing economic policies at all? They lost ALL credibility in that department. Their policies are destructive to the working class, irresponsible on budget deficits, and lean to only one side - THE RICH!

They need to sit the F*ck down and let the grown ups handle it from here. Now that they ran up all the credit cards and wiped out America's bank account, Daddy Obama is having to pull out his wallet, and he gets all the blame, all the responsibility, and the bratty little republicans are going to criticize him about spending money. P A L E E E Z E ! ! !

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 06:25 PM
reply to post by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Krugman is a beauty. He is a self avowed socialist and a strong supporter of a command and control economy. Why is it that he's the only gent they can put out there to talk about this stimulus rubish? Because he is the only one who sings this tune.

Krugman was a strong support of TARP, although he felt that the money given to the banks was not large enough and that essentially the government should take one an even larger stake in the banks. Most of the TARP money has newer been spent, yet Noble prize winner Krugman felt it was too small.

Krugman was a strong supporter of the stimulus, although he felt that was too small. At the current size however, Krugman felt that the stimulus would stop the growth in unemployment if not reverse it slightly. That was when unemployment rate was about 8%. He was spot on with that projection as well - not. Now he wants more stimulus - the amount can not be big enough. Brilliant - he will always be "right" on this because he will simply state that the amount of the stimulus, regardless of its size is not big enough. My 8 year old can play that kind of game as well

As far as his Nobel Prize, he received his Nobel for an econometric study regarding the historic flow of capital based on demographics. Had nothing to do with monetary policy, the very topic he opines on as the democratic mouthpiece on matters related to economics.

He's a simplistic, socialist blowhard who has consistently been wrong on the major issues of the past two years.

[edit on 7-7-2010 by dolphinfan]

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 06:32 PM
reply to post by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Paul Krugman has never owned his own business, nor has he even ever worked in the private sector. Krugman is an academic who by his own admission became interested in economics after reading Asimov's Foundation series. His idealism is inspired by science fiction novels, which would be fine if he actually had the temerity to put his own idealism to the test by taking risks himself and building businesses based on his own ideals rather than advocating economic policies that force his idealism on actual business people who take all the risk.

As to Krugman's credentials, again, and this cannot be stressed enough, he is an academic, not a businessman, and his Nobel Memorial Prize may mean something to people who are still impressed with the Nobel organization, but this is the same group that awarded Barack Obama a Peace Prize while Obama was developing a war strategy to increase troops in Afghanistan. This is the same group that gave Yasser Arafat a Peace Prize because he took a break from slapping bombs on children backs and sending them off to die and kill others. This is the same organization that gave Henry Kissinger a Peace Prize. Be impressed with Nobel Prizes if you wish, I am more impressed with quantifiable action and the actual benefits those actions brought. Krugman is not anyone who has acted in anyway where those actions can be quantified as actual benefit for anyone other than himself.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 06:45 PM
reply to post by Aristophrenia

I can be very clear on this too. You are wrong. That is not Economics 101. What you are spewing is the Democratic/Socialist Party line.

You don't raise taxes when only 53% of the population pays them and if you do raise them, then its time for the 47% that are getting a free ride to start contributing. Fix the broken system before you deform it even more.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 08:07 PM
reply to post by BuffaloJoe

If the bottom 50% only own 1% of the nation's wealth, than how much tax money do you think you can squeeze out of them to make a difference? I mean really?

They don't pay taxes because they live at poverty level. But they do still pay sales tax, property tax, etc, so don't try to say they pay no taxes, just income, because they have none to speak of.

Burdening the poor with the tax bill is spewed from the republican/(Snip) party line.

[edit on 7-7-2010 by asala]

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 08:14 PM
reply to post by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Income tax in perpetuity is immoral and unsustainable, and the current problems the nation faces only illustrates fully all that is wrong with perpetual income taxation. It has been used as a wealth re-distribution scheme that has not re-distributed wealth at all, and only served to ensure the poor stay poor. The current "welfare" model does nothing to create wealth, and only serves to keep poor people from creating wealth. Wealth creation is the answer, and that will not happen sitting around waiting on welfare checks, or working at low end jobs that hardly pay the bills. It matters not that the poor are paying sales taxes, particularly if they are buying very little with what they have.

Income taxation has only created an out of control government that has become such a Leviathan that we the people are now faced with a horrible choice. If we are to find a way towards peaceful revolution, where inalienable rights for all people are respected, we must begin by reigning in out of control governments. Paying income taxes will not accomplish that at all.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 08:15 PM
reply to post by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Everybody should pay their proportionate share. 15%~20% across the board. That way wealthy pay lots, poor pay little. Everyone should contribute to the burden, everyone should be part of the team. Want to make it even fairer, tax the purchases, that way those who buy the most stuff pay the most tax.

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 08:20 PM
5 Easy Steps:

1) Lobbyist reform - get business OUT of politics, pass corruption law which states members of government cannot make a profit on their actions in office.

2) 20% straight consumption tax - no exemptions. (good bye income tax, good bye tax dodging, you buy it you pay) IRS can then be turned loose on medicare fraudsters and bank audits. (If you must tax the ultra rich, do a additional 10% to 20% FLAT tax at a particular millions $ mark.)

3) 0.5% mortgage refinance, a full financial reset.

4) Fair Trade - Yes, time to tariff foreign slave labor. Also a container tax, used to pay our inspection of EVERY container, truck and train that comes into the country.

5) Pour money into America's sand instead of Iraq and Afghanistan - Build Algae Oil Farms in New Mexico now.

See link for Algae Oil, we could be 100% energy independent in less than 10 years!

[edit on 7-7-2010 by infolurker]

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 08:22 PM
Also, My new plan B for economic reset (once tariffs and regulation in place)

Direct "Fed to Consumer Mortgage Recapitalization" or "Debt Recapitalization".

My plan is for "existing" mortgage holders / consumers to borrow mortgage recapitalization funds directly from the Fed or Gov directly at the rate of 0.5 %

This is a fraction of the interest that we are currently being charged by the banks and it makes a significant and direct positive impact on our economy.

By taking the 0.5% Mortgage "Recapitalization" from the Fed directly, mortgage holders pay-off existing mortgages in full to the banks and the banks now have the capital of millions of "paid in full" mortgages. Note: Please go to a mortgage calculator online and input the standard 6%-7% mortgage rate is... now try it again with 0.5%. This factor makes even more impact on someone with a much higher ARM interest rate.

At 0.5 % monthly mortgage payments are about half of what they are today. (STIMULUS PACKAGE DONE) Additionally,which is better, a one time subsidy to the US people which causes a flood of revenue across the board or simply GIVING away as much to the Bankers? Think about it. "win/win"

The banks get Mortgage pay-offs from millions of mortgages and have all the money they claim they need to alleviate their shortages and asset troubles. (As stated later, Banks will pick-up standard mortgage lending after the "recapitalization period".)

This is not a refinance and does not require property assessments, this is strictly a "mortgage recapitalization" with a hard $3000.00 "origination fee" added to the loan amount. (This can be adjusted, below is a quick example of how this origination fee would be used to assist our troubled city & state governments, as an added bonus it this plan solves our current monetary crisis at the Local & State levels.)

$500 is paid to a bank or finance organization who provides the paperwork & processing.
$750 is paid to your city / municipality / county (Local Government - Fire, Police, etc.)
$750 is paid to State Government.
$1000 is paid to the Federal Government.

(Plan B also assists our local / state governments that are currently experiencing large budget shortfalls through the origination fee) This is like Equity cash out with an interest reduction. Complete National Economy Reset.

Recapitalization to the American people done. And would have cost less than what we have already done which has FAILED, FAILED, and will continue to FAIL.

[edit on 7-7-2010 by infolurker]

posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 08:25 PM
Rule #1 America First: For the people (Of the USA) By the people (Of the USA) Don't forget where your allegiance lies (elected officials).

Rule #2 ALL PRODUCTION / MANUFACTURING of materials used for these Government Stimulus / Public works projects which are being paid for (eventually) by the U.S. taxpayer money must be manufactured IN the United States of America. (Otherwise everything would be outsourced to China)

Energy Independence Act of 2010

Federal Money is used to build a HUGE facility in New Mexico to grow Algae oil for domestic liquid fuel consumption. Closed system algae bio-reactors can produce 20,000 to 100,000 gallons per acre per year (for reference corn provides at most a couple hundred gallons an acre per year, over a 500 times less fuel).

This would be a huge public works project requiring pipelines from the ocean needed to reach New Mexico for water. Glass can be made at location (sand) and glass vertical tube closed system bio-reactors constructed to include processing and refining facilities. Any extra water can easily be put through solar distillation and piped to your city of choice as clean water. Rail lines, barracks, roads, support, etc would also be required and the whole thing could be managed by the military with 6 month assignments of active duty personal to oversee the operation and civilian workers bused in and rotated (similar to working on oil platforms currently). Through constant expansion, 1/10 of the state of New Mexico would be utilized to harvest and process the product (carbon neutral liquid fuel).

Rules would have to be in place that the "product" is domestic use ONLY and would not be available to paper traders to speculate on price, etc. Once this is up and running as a NON-PROFIT entity, the cost of the product would be production cost + X% with the X% going to Federal Revenue. Once domestic needs are met, any excess would be sold on the open market.

Garbage Plasma facilities set-up at ALL major landfills. (No need to explain, see

Implementation of "solar-cell" easy-roll roofing materials massed produced in the U.S. (only by law) utilizing current Welfare (now work-fare) recipients who work 20 hours a week as well as "voluntary" prison labor (at their own secured facilities). Voluntary meaning that general prisoners (not your nutcases) can work if they want to for say $2.00 an hour paid in US savings bonds that they receive upon release (better to get out with a few thousand $ than nothing).

Container Inspection Act of 2010

ALL shipping containers, train-cars, and cargo trucks entering the U.S. will be inspected. An inspection fee will be assessed (whatever price / tariff needed to cover the cost) on all containers entering the US or any cargo coming in via land from Mexico / Canada. We will call it the "price of doing business" in the U.S. and we can employ 10's of thousands of people to make this happen. This need to happen for the sake of "National Security".

[edit on 7-7-2010 by infolurker]

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